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Is Jesus portrayed in the Gospels as Anti-Torah?

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Back up a couple of verses. He's speaking of obstacles. When family is in the way of doing what is right. That doesn't mean we have to abandon all if we can serve God as well.

For you and me, today, sure. But if you want to follow Jesus, in the first century, prior to his crucifixion, you better be willing to martyr all your worldly hopes and dreams and suffer with the Lord. Jesus was trying to spare the weekend-warriors from something he knew was coming, but that they didn't.

Today most Christians are weekend-warriors. We easily fit our faith and our worldly priorities into the same grab-bag.



John
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
For you and me, today, sure. But if you want to follow Jesus, in the first century, prior to his crucifixion, you better be willing to martyr all your worldly hopes and dreams and suffer with the Lord. Jesus was trying to spare the weekend-warriors from something he knew was coming, but that they didn't.

Today most Christians are weekend-warriors. We easily fit our faith and our worldly priorities into the same grab-bag.



John
I don't believe there's any difference in that regard between then and now.

Sure, if you wanted to join his discipleship, it was a come-on, you need nothing, let's go deal. But I don't take that as the whole meaning behind following him.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Where can I find this Toledot Yeshu that didn't come way later? I'd love to read it.
What I wrote was that the Toledot Yeshu came way latter than the gospels of Judas, Marry, Thomas, etc. Those gospels were around in the 2nd to 5th century. According to Daniel ben Ezra's work "An Ancient List of Christian Festivals in Toledot Yeshu" more than 100 manuscripts of the exist, almost all of them late medieval (the oldest manuscript being from the 11th century CE.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
That duty, as written in the Torah, is to bury the dead, not to preach and convert.
The quote was originally from @Ehav4Ever

The closest text I've found for a duty to bury the dead is:

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of Elohim;) that thy land be not defiled, which the YHWH thy Elah giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
Deuteronomy 21:22-23

It could be argued that the presumption of innocence applies and the man who died was not put to death for his sin.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
The quote was originally from @Ehav4Ever

The closest text I've found for a duty to bury the dead is:

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of Elohim;) that thy land be not defiled, which the YHWH thy Elah giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
Deuteronomy 21:22-23

It could be argued that the presumption of innocence applies and the man who died was not put to death for his sin.
For Torah based Jews, the requirement for burying the dead starts with the mitzvoth concerning honoring / holding precious one's parents. This is a requirement for Jews which is highly elevated in the Torah and its explaination was given to our ancestors at Mount Sinai and passed down to us through the generations. This is more than likely what the NT author was referencing with the story.

Concerning the Jewish responsibility to bury the dead within the Jewish community, you are correct that one of the places that this is referenced in Hebrew is with the statement: (כי-קבור תקברנו ביום ההוא--כי-קללת אלהים) in Devarim (Deut.) 21:23.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
For Torah based Jews, the requirement for burying the dead starts with the mitzvoth concerning honoring / holding precious one's parents.
So this one?

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which YHWH thy Elah giveth thee.
Exodus 20:12
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Another reason is when the student of a particular charismatic individual thinks their leader is going to do some amazing, and when it doesn't happen some people can't let go - because they invested so much of their life to the movement - they try to create ways to get around the reality. Thus, there are people develop things like, "He told me in secret this would happen." There is also the famouse, "It is written that this would happen" or "this happened to fulfill the prophecy of......" Then there is also, "He will return and do that stuff later.....possibly next year." Near year comes and the, "No, he meant in a few years....." Then a few years pass it becomes, "It will happen sometime in the near, or distant, future. Just stay faithful....he will come back in this generation, or a later one."
Maybe that could happen. i think such ideas die, when the people who cling on to false ideas die. By what I see, that is what happens in cults. There may be fanatical supporters, but they can't transfer their fanaticism to others, at least if it is based on things that are not true.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Anything else? That's a wide open question.

It means: "If you are living, you do not need to bury the dead."
No, it can as well mean, if someone else is burying a person, it is not necessary to do it yourself, especially if there is more important thing to do.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Jesus tells the man NOT to follow the law because he is not one of the dead.
Thanks for your explanation. I think it is clear that Jesus doesn't say "NOT to follow the law". He says let the other people bury the dead, which we can assume means that the person would be buried as required and the law would not be broken.

Now i just wonder, if Jesus would be wrong, why would people need to lie about what he said?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
How about he's trying to say, stop procrastinating with excuses? Why couldn't the man proclaim the kingdom as he buried his father? Why does living the worldly life have to be separated from following Jesus and proclaiming the kingdom?
I don't know was there some special reason why Jesus told that the man should so so in that situation. But perhaps one lesson in that case is what is important. In Biblical point of view, for disciples of Jesus, God's will should be always more important than pleasing family members. if you don't like it, then it is not for you and that's it, I think.

However, if we read the whole Bible, we can notice that disciples of Jesus can have relatively normal life. And for example many apostles had wives. I think it is all about order of values, first there is God, and then there is people.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Thank you. I don't see any contradictory in them to those that are in the Bible.
Why do you think the early Catholic church considered them heretical and worked hard to have them banned? Also, do you consider them a part of your scripture?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Maybe that could happen. i think such ideas die, when the people who cling on to false ideas die. By what I see, that is what happens in cults. There may be fanatical supporters, but they can't transfer their fanaticism to others, at least if it is based on things that are not true.
You would be surprised. There are a lot of bad ideas that don't die with the one who promotes them. Like someone mentioned earlier, it depends on who is doing the PR. It also helps when the bad ideas are transferred to people who can't check the concepts on their own.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
The quote was originally from @Ehav4Ever

The closest text I've found for a duty to bury the dead is:

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of Elohim;) that thy land be not defiled, which the YHWH thy Elah giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
Deuteronomy 21:22-23

It could be argued that the presumption of innocence applies and the man who died was not put to death for his sin.

Ding-ding-ding. Winner. Nice. I love it. Good thinking. I had not considered that at all.

However, there are a few problems, right?

1) Practical problem: If what you're saying is true then there is no requirement to bury the dead who died of natural causes?
2) Theological problem: From the Christian perspective all of us are being put to death for our sins when we die?
3) Contextual problem: This is not what Jesus is teaching in Luke 9 with the directive: "Let the dead bury the dead" ?
 
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