Is Jesus the Son of God?

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you for your creative answer. I like that you are thinking outside the square.

I'm a Baha'i.

An Unknowable God | What Bahá’ís Believe

As we believe that all Gods great prophets or manifestations are perfect guides to humanity we believe in the same God, Jesus, and Gospels as the Christians.

This thread in part explores that despite Jesus is given the unique designation 'Son of God' based in part on the story of the virgin birth. However the designation is not too dissimilar to other designations highlighting the uniqueness and greatness of all God's manifestations.

Well, this is a hit and miss answer - I'd say Adam is the Son of God based on Genesis.

This is useful because if Jesus' greatness was based on having no father, then Adam would be greater as He has neither a father or mother. Of course this does not make sense, so Jesus' greatness depends on HIs Divine virtues or perfections as do other Manifestations of God.

Its also important to note that we are all sons of God for in the Gospel of John, Jesus says:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12 (daughters too)

Another mystery, apologies for this digression(its too much coffee). When Cain went to the land of Nod and found himself a wife - did God create Nod and the folk thereof ? The easy answer is yes, but is Nod mentioned elsewhere.

I think an easier answer is to regard the early part's of genesis as largely allegorical in the manner it is written, so we don't need to get caught up with the obvious contradictions with science and reason in taking these verses literally. Similarly with the story of Adam and Eve. Did a snake really talk to a naked woman and then suffer punishment by losing its legs and having to crawl on its belly?

Jesus for me represents the Sun, and his 12 disciples represent the 12 Houses of the Zodiac. Astro theology courtesy of Bill Donahue and Santos Bonnacci interest me.

Its a useful analogy comparing Jesus to the sun for in the book of John the Father and the son are one. So God is likened to the sun and Jesus the perfect reflection of HIs father's image.

The number 12 is hugely significant in Christian symbolism, but also in Islam too with the 12 imams of Shi'te Islam.

Astrology is a tool for understanding psychology and prophecy. The Baha'i writings are stronger in these areas as well as assisting unravelling the mysteries of sacred scripture.

I am the Light of the world said the Sun

Indeed

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

How long a Christian and what was the turning point for you leaving?

I became an atheist when I turned 15.
My step mom hated it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I became an atheist when I turned 15.
My step mom hated it.

Sounds like your time being a Christian was not too happy

 

[Muffled]

That sounds like quite an experience. I believed in Satan many years ago briefly when I was a Christian but was going through a difficult time. Baha'is don't believe in Satan.

I beleive that means you don't believe what God says:
Lu 11:18 And if Satan also is divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub.

 

[Muffled]

Having doubts about the NT gospels, I've done some research. If you study the Jesus movement, which happened after Jesus was killed, you find Jesus was not called the son of God until about 30 to 50 years after the death of Jesus. Also, you don't find the crucifixion mentioned until about the same time. I believe Jesus was God, and there is no son of God, and there was no crucifixion of Jesus. There is no Trinity. How could the Trinity be eternal when the son had a beginning? I believe Jesus followers misinterpreted Jesus. Rather than seeing the duality of God, they saw father and son.

Early Christians needed a sacrificial lamb story to promote their new religion. It took off when Jesus, the man and son of God, was added. It is human to identify with a man or human like oneself rather than an "aloof" deity. It is also a better recruiting tool, people want to think of themselves as a deity, or a son of God, which was proposed by Paul when he declared Jesus to be our brother.

I believe this is a specious argument because although the writings are later they are reporting on the life of Jesus when He was alive.

I believe this is a matter of nomenclature.

I believe that is contrary to the Biblical record.

I believe it is because the eternal God is in Jesus. The body which is temporal is not God.

I believe that happens all the time but other people misinterpret Jesus as well.

I believe God does not have a duality.

I don't believe there is any evidence to support that view.

I don't believe you speak for everyone and I certainly don't. However having God in me is an advantage.

I believe Paul is just illuminating what Jesus already said.

 

[Muffled]

Sounds like your time being a Christian was not too happy

I believe you are assuming that becoming an atheist meant he was a Christian. A lot of people say they are because they are in the culture but they are simply cultural Christians.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe you are assuming that becoming an atheist meant he was a Christian. A lot of people say they are because they are in the culture but they are simply cultural Christians.

He is a she actually

Given she became an atheist at age 15 then it is likely though not certain she grew up a Christian rather than having made a conscious decision to have become a Christian. I like to talk to people to better understand them.I refrain from telling people what to think or believe, especially if I have no idea what they believe or why

 

[Dawnofhope]

I beleive that means you don't believe what God says:
Lu 11:18 And if Satan also is divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub.

Jesus said that to highlight the absurdity of the arguments being levelled against Him. In the verses leading up to verses 18 some are claiming Jesus was Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

We know through medical science that epilepsy and mental illness are not the result of demon possession but this was the language used in the gospels to account for such phenomenon.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Sounds like your time being a Christian was not too happy

I wasn't happy as a christian.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I wasn't happy as a christian.

I wasn't happy with being a Christian because of the prejudice towards people of other faiths. I still believed in God. I prayed to God for Guidance. I remembered the words of Jesus "seek and you shall find", "the truth shall set you free". In anguish and sincerity I prayed to God to guide me. Soon after I had the opportunity to find out about the Baha'i Faith. It is a religion that appreciates and understands the other faiths. There is no more of the type of prejudice towards Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews. It is easy to see why many would turn away and abandon religion and God all together. Now I am happy.

What makes me happy may not make you happy. Are you happy with Lucifer? What is your journey?

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

I wasn't happy with being a Christian because of the prejudice towards people of other faiths. I still believed in God. I prayed to God for Guidance. I remembered the words of Jesus "seek and you shall find", "the truth shall set you free". In anguish and sincerity I prayed to God to guide me. Soon after I had the opportunity to find out about the Baha'i Faith. It is a religion that appreciates and understands the other faiths. There is no more of the type of prejudice towards Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews. It is easy to see why many would turn away and abandon religion and God all together. Now I am happy.

What makes me happy may not make you happy. Are you happy with Lucifer? What is your journey?

I am happy to follow Lucifer. I am glad he introduced himself to me.
To help others understand what Satanism is about.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Baha'i Faith is arguably the newest of the world religions having been founded by Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) 1817-1892.

He taught that there is One God whose essence is unknowable.

Humanity is one, and all the main religions are inspired by God.

Revelation | What Bahá’ís Believe

Bahá'í Faith and the unity of religion - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah speaks of the underlying purpose of religion:

"O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men…Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure."


And the unity of religion:

"…the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness."

The Challenge therefore is to appreciate what religions have in common and better understand of the apparent contradictions or inconsistencies. Shoghi Effendi, the leader of the Baha'i Faith from 1921-1957 stated:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost...” Shoghi Effendi

How does the designation assist us to understand the Spiritual Reality of Christ AND the underlying unity of religion?

Lets look at the key verses:

In Mathew 1:18-25 it is written:
"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
”The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”-- which means, “God with us.”
When Joseph awoke, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

We know from the Baha'i writings that the virgin birth is upheld as a Divine mystery.

We also consider
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that however believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life." John 3:16

This is important to contrast with the quote we are all sons of God.

Sons of God Genesis: 6:2, Genesis:6:4, Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7, Matthew 5:9, Luke 20:36, Romans 8:14, Romans 8:19, Galatians 3:26

Children of God John 1:12, John 11:52, Roman 8:16, Roman 8:16, Roman 8:21, Romans 9:8

The significance of John 3:16 is the unique role of Jesus to humanity as distinct from other humans.

So the idea that Jesus is physically or literally the Son of God is derived from the "Son of God" designation that appears throughout the Gospels but also in other New and Old Testament texts.

It is a designation that highlights the Uniqueness and Greatness of Jesus when compared to the rest of humanity.

However other religions may also have different designations such as Moses being the friend of God, Muhammad being the seal of the prophets or Baha'u'llah being the Glory of God. These different designations may serve a similar purpose to highlight the Uniqueness of a particular Man who Manifests God's Greatness with a Revelation that transforms communities, traditions, and morals.

Therefore the 'Son of God' designation of Jesus is consistent with the underlying unity in all the Great Prophets or Manifestations of God.

 

[Muffled]

He is a she actually

Given she became an atheist at age 15 then it is likely though not certain she grew up a Christian rather than having made a conscious decision to have become a Christian. I like to talk to people to better understand them.I refrain from telling people what to think or believe, especially if I have no idea what they believe or why

I believe my granddaughter is a case in point. I brought her to church and she made a statement of faith and was baptized. Later a teacher made evolution sound like fact and therefore the Bible not true so she claimed to be an atheist. After I talked to her about the facts she moderated to calling herself an agnostic. My question is this: If she were truly a Christian how could she not know there is a God?

 

[Muffled]

Jesus said that to highlight the absurdity of the arguments being levelled against Him. In the verses leading up to verses 18 some are claiming Jesus was Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

We know through medical science that epilepsy and mental illness are not the result of demon possession but this was the language used in the gospels to account for such phenomenon.

I believe medical science is often wrong. Remember at one time it bled people believing the blood had bad vapors and bleeding would help.

 

[Muffled]

I wasn't happy with being a Christian because of the prejudice towards people of other faiths. I still believed in God. I prayed to God for Guidance. I remembered the words of Jesus "seek and you shall find", "the truth shall set you free". In anguish and sincerity I prayed to God to guide me. Soon after I had the opportunity to find out about the Baha'i Faith. It is a religion that appreciates and understands the other faiths. There is no more of the type of prejudice towards Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews. It is easy to see why many would turn away and abandon religion and God all together. Now I am happy.

What makes me happy may not make you happy. Are you happy with Lucifer? What is your journey?

I believe that is not a matter of being unhappy with Christianity but being unhappy with false beliefs in Christian culture. Granted that Jesus is exclusive but not because another person has another religion but because people don't follow Him.

I believe it does not understand Christianity and I wonder if you do either.

I believe anyone can be happy but that does not mean you are saved.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe my granddaughter is a case in point. I brought her to church and she made a statement of faith and was baptized. Later a teacher made evolution sound like fact and therefore the Bible not true so she claimed to be an atheist. After I talked to her about the facts she moderated to calling herself an agnostic. My question is this: If she were truly a Christian how could she not know there is a God?

Thanks for sharing. Perhaps the issue for your grand daughter is reconciling religious and scientific truth? Christianity has frequently suffered self inflected wounds for its avoidance of scientific reality. Do we really want to take the story of creation literally? How about reverting back to exorcisms for the treatment of epilepsy and mental illness?

Abdu'l-Baha has said that man was never an animal but indicated that in our development to adulthood we take on different forms from being a single cell to an adult. We are still humans as distinct from being animals but perhaps our forms have changed through out time. Where ever truth lies we need to consider both religion and science.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe that is not a matter of being unhappy with Christianity but being unhappy with false beliefs in Christian culture. Granted that Jesus is exclusive but not because another person has another religion but because people don't follow Him.

I believe it does not understand Christianity and I wonder if you do either.

I believe anyone can be happy but that does not mean you are saved.

Perhaps you are correct. Let's say I fail to understand Christianity and am accounted as one of the damned. I'm still serving my family and my community heart and soul. I have no hesitation in exploring the realities of Christ's teachings with you or anyone else. What if I am right? What of one who calls his brother a worthless fool? Matthew 5:22 How about the one who judges his brother? Matthew 7:1-3

 

[Muffled]

Perhaps you are correct. Let's say I fail to understand Christianity and am accounted as one of the damned. I'm still serving my family and my community heart and soul. I have no hesitation in exploring the realities of Christ's teachings with you or anyone else. What if I am right? What of one who calls his brother a worthless fool? Matthew 5:22 How about the one who judges his brother? Matthew 7:1-3

Does this really matter if you are damned?

I believe this may depend on what you fail to believe. I don't believe you would be damned for not believing in the Trinity for instance.

I believe that is all God is asking of you: to hear what He says and believe it.

I believe I would congratulate you.

I believe I then shall be judged. If I am found wanting I will be fortunate to get a log out of my eye. Judgement does me a favor. If I am not right about something I need to know so I can change my thinking.

 

[Muffled]

Thanks for sharing. Perhaps the issue for your grand daughter is reconciling religious and scientific truth? Christianity has frequently suffered self inflected wounds for its avoidance of scientific reality. Do we really want to take the story of creation literally? How about reverting back to exorcisms for the treatment of epilepsy and mental illness?

Abdu'l-Baha has said that man was never an animal but indicated that in our development to adulthood we take on different forms from being a single cell to an adult. We are still humans as distinct from being animals but perhaps our forms have changed through out time. Where ever truth lies we need to consider both religion and science.

I believe I did that for her but her real problem is that she only had head knowledge of Christianity and no real relationship with Jesus.

I believe not all science is realty. Much of it is fantasy.

I don't believe I see any reason not to.

I believe both religion and science can make mistakes. Epilepsy can be shown to have a physical cause but mental illness is little understood and most psychologists refuse to believe in spiritual matters which means they are operating on superstition.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Does this really matter if you are damned?

We do the best we can with this life. We do not know for certain what happens when we die and our knowledge is a matter of faith, not certainty. Our faith is based on what scripture tells us. What seems very clear is that it is God alone who judges us when we die. I do agree however there is a clear warning in the sacred books as to the threat of punishment and the promise of reward depending on BOTH our faith and our actions.

I believe this may depend on what you fail to believe. I don't believe you would be damned for not believing in the Trinity for instance.

Do you think God takes into account peoples circumstances? For example would He condemn someone to hell if he had been true to the best teachings in his religion but had never heard of Jesus?

I believe that is all God is asking of you: to hear what He says and believe it.

Here we differ as I am a Baha'i and I presume you consider yourself Christian. Baha'is see Baha'u'llah as the Return of Christ and so I am obliged to recognise His teachings just as the early Christians were required to follow those of Christ. For the Christian, what of the Mosaic Covenant? It had been replaced by the New Covenant Christ brought. Similarly Baha'u'llah has brought a New Covenant, and that from Christ is now like that of Moses. What were the consequences for the Jews in failing to recognise their Messiah? If Baha'u'llah is who He says He is, by what standard will those who reject Him be judged?

I believe I would congratulate you.

I would pray for your forgiveness and greet you as a long lost friend in the Kingdom of heaven.

I believe I then shall be judged. If I am found wanting I will be fortunate to get a log out of my eye. Judgement does me a favor. If I am not right about something I need to know so I can change my thinking.

That is true for both of us.