Is justice destroying sin or punishing it?

[Heneni]

I put this in this section of the forum, because so often people struggle with understanding why god would send anybody to the lake of fire. I dont wont to discuss if its going to happen or not, there are already many threads about that, i want to discuss whether god would be just or unjust to destroy sin, or just/unjust to punish it. And how do you see him executing that justice.

So, what you say?

Heneni

 

[Delilah Roo]

Well we have sort of a similar delema in deciding whether we are for or agianst capital punishment. Does some one deserve to die for their wrongs or just be punished for them. It is a hard decision to make. I would say the government has no right to decide someone should die. But... God has absolute authority on that right? I dont acctually know.
If good is all knowing he makes the right decision no matter what simply because it is the decision he made.

Personaly I think justice is when some one who has commited some wrong can make up for it some how. I think poeple should have the right to feel bad for their wrongs. I know I would feel alot worse spending a life time in jail than 30 seconds in an electric chair. (I know they dont acctually use the chair anymore.)

If I was god, I would punish not destory. If god made us, and we went wrong, wouldent he want to fix us, not destory us. (as individuals not all of humanity.)

I hope that made some sort of sense.

 

[Heneni]

Personaly I think justice is when some one who has commited some wrong can make up for it some how..

It makes a lot of sense. The above point also brings up another point: Does punishing sin, make up for sin, or does destroying it make up for sin.

I havent made my mind up completely about that which is why id love other people's inputs.

Thanks again!
Heneni

 

[Heneni]

If I was god, I would punish not destory. If god made us, and we went wrong, wouldent he want to fix us, not destory us. (as individuals not all of humanity.)

Another very valid point. Is god after destroying people or destroying sin? And which option would be just.

Heneni

 

[Poisonshady313]

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I desire at all the death of the wicked man? - the word of the Lord God. Is it not rather his return from his ways, that he might live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I do not desire the death of the one who should die - the word of the Lord God. Turn back and live!

Justice is in punishment... though, apparently, from time to time, the only fitting punishment IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES is death.

 

[mickiel]

God will destroy sin, but not the sinner, and you cannot equate the two as being one. The Apostle Paul explained that we were sold into sin in Rom. 7:14, thats not humanitys fault, no human asked to be born into sin. In vs.17 Paul shows the sheer power of sin, he said its no longer him, an apostle of God, who is doing it, but the sin that has gotten into him. He repeats this principle in vs 20.

So why take harsh judgement against the sinner, we all have this sin in us, all of us, none can be exculded. Sin needs to be dealt with with mercy and forgiveness. Thats how I would like my sin to be dealt with. James 2:11," For judgement will be Merciless to one who has shown no Mercy; Mercy Triumphs over Judgement." And this is how God is, hes Merciful. God is not after the Sinner, hes after the Sin itself. That unseen motivating element that Paul knew was inside of him.

Here we have an Apostle of God, literally admitting that he did sin that he didnot want to do. He was talking about his " Present condition", not the Saul of the past. In John 1:29 it says that Jesus has " Taken Away the Sins of the whole world", why do we want to judge sinful humanity and bring those sins back?

Peace.

 

[Heneni]

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I desire at all the death of the wicked man? - the word of the Lord God. Is it not rather his return from his ways, that he might live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I do not desire the death of the one who should die - the word of the Lord God. Turn back and live!

Justice is in punishment... though, apparently, from time to time, the only fitting punishment IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES is death.

Is death the punishment for sin? Or the wages. Isnt death the means to hinder a man from doing more evil? When a man dies he has no more power to execute evil. If death is god's way of making sure a man does not continue to do evil isnt he helping him rather than hindering him?

That kinda does not sound like punishment.

But then god does not delight in the death of the wicked so if it stopped him from doing evil, why wouldnt god be happy with it? Because he takes away the mans power to do evil, but at the same time the power to do good. So therefore he does not delight in the death of the wicked. So he says 'turn that you may live!'. Not live to continue to do evil, but turn to do good.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

God will destroy sin, but not the sinner, and you cannot equate the two as being one. The Apostle Paul explained that we were sold into sin in Rom. 7:14, thats not humanitys fault, no human asked to be born into sin. In vs.17 Paul shows the sheer power of sin, he said its no longer him, an apostle of God, who is doing it, but the sin that has gotten into him. He repeats this principle in vs 20.

So why take harsh judgement against the sinner, we all have this sin in us, all of us, none can be exculded. Sin needs to be dealt with with mercy and forgiveness. Thats how I would like my sin to be dealt with. James 2:11," For judgement will be Merciless to one who has shown no Mercy; Mercy Triumphs over Judgement." And this is how God is, hes Merciful. God is not after the Sinner, hes after the Sin itself. That unseen motivating element that Paul knew was inside of him.

Here we have an Apostle of God, literally admitting that he did sin that he didnot want to do. He was talking about his " Present condition", not the Saul of the past. In John 1:29 it says that Jesus has " Taken Away the Sins of the whole world", why do we want to judge sinful humanity and bring those sins back?

Peace.

Well i think as i have explained in the previous post, that god wants to destroy the works of the devil. ''for this reason the son of god appeared that he might destroy the works of the devil''. And since that is gods desire i dont think that gods plan is that satan or evil man continue their works.

The devil needs power to do evil. If that power is taken away he can no longer do the evil, but that does not mean that he still isnt intrinsically evil. Evil can actually continue to exist without it having been destroyed as long as the power to do it has been taken away. So what would be punishment for an evil man? To destroy him, or to take away his power to do evil. We on this earth put men in prison, and thereby taking away their power to do what they did in society but that does not mean that they have a change in heart right.

Now i know that god wants to root out evil, by rooting out the men that do it. To take away evil, you have to take the man that does it out of the equation. You dont have to kill the man, you simply can just remove him.

I know mickiel that you dont believe in eternal hell suffering. You feel it is unjust. But right now im thinking it is unjust to keep the evil man among the men that do good, because they will simply continue to batter them. For that reason we humans put men in prison as well.

So it is justified i believe to remove the evil man. Its for his own good and for those that they hurt. Its only punishment if he wants to do those things still and cant get the opportunity to do it. Hence the weeping and grinding of teeth.

God does not destroy the man, you are right he destroys the power of the man to do evil. What does man use to execute evil? His soul and his body and god says: ''do not fear men, but fear god who can destroy both body and soul''. So god can destroy the body and the soul, but what would still be left is the spirit which god does not destroy. Now the spirit would have nothing to execute its evil through. So god would have destroyed completely the evil that man DO when he destroys their soul and body, but would he have destroyed the evil spirit? No.

Heneni

 

[Shiner2]

I put this in this section of the forum, because so often people struggle with understanding why god would send anybody to the lake of fire. I dont wont to discuss if its going to happen or not, there are already many threads about that, i want to discuss whether god would be just or unjust to destroy sin, or just/unjust to punish it. And how do you see him executing that justice.

So, what you say?

Heneni

Hello Heneni!
If you're willing to accept what the Bible has to say about God's Justice, maybe this will aid you: "The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A god of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice." So, whether Jehovah merely punishes the sinner, and is merciful, at the time,or whether the punishment is death for the sin, we can be certain, either way, it will be done with true justice.
In the Proverbs we find these words about Jehovah's scales of justice, and they are always in perfect balance: "The just indicator and scales belong to Jehovah; all the stoneweights of the bag are his." Deuteronomy 32:4-Proverbs 16:11
This is the way I see him executing his justice, and what judge in this entire World could do better than Jehovah? Shiner2

 

[mickiel]

God does not destroy the man, you are right he destroys the power of the man to do evil. What does man use to execute evil? His soul and his body and god says: ''do not fear men, but fear god who can destroy both body and soul''. So god can destroy the body and the soul, but what would still be left is the spirit which god does not destroy. Now the spirit would have nothing to execute its evil through. So god would have destroyed completely the evil that man DO when he destroys their soul and body, but would he have destroyed the evil spirit? No.

Heneni

Well you are trying to deal with the problem of sin and evil, by blaming humans who do it, and thus you feel justified by removing them or killing them. And that, along with eternal hell punishing, is how humans would deal with sinful evil humans. And you seem to think this is also Gods way. Your still equating sin, with the sinner, as if you yourself do not sin. Will you have yourself removed? Whats the difference in your sin, and those sinners you want removed, I am curious to hear that? Is your sin more forgivable, or are you now sinless?

Why must there be sinners who need to be removed from Gods Kingdom? I understand men imprisoning men here on earth, its how we deal with crime. But we are discussing the future of sinners with God in his Kingdom. Why does your mind and heart cannot see that God will change all these sinful people after he ressurects them. He will create in them a clean heart by " Removing the Sin" from them, they themselves do not have to be eliminated. 1Tim.2:6 states that Jesus died as a " Ransom for ALL", thats the " Out" which sinners will receive, their death is unnessecersary. The Rasom, is the complette payment for ALL sins committed by humanity.

You think the Ransom is just for people like you. And you exclude people like me who struggle with sin.

Peace.

 

[Heneni]

God will destroy sin, but not the sinner, and you cannot equate the two as being one. The Apostle Paul explained that we were sold into sin in Rom. 7:14, thats not humanitys fault, no human asked to be born into sin. In vs.17 Paul shows the sheer power of sin, he said its no longer him, an apostle of God, who is doing it, but the sin that has gotten into him. He repeats this principle in vs 20.

So why take harsh judgement against the sinner, we all have this sin in us, all of us, none can be exculded. Sin needs to be dealt with with mercy and forgiveness. Thats how I would like my sin to be dealt with. James 2:11," For judgement will be Merciless to one who has shown no Mercy; Mercy Triumphs over Judgement." And this is how God is, hes Merciful. God is not after the Sinner, hes after the Sin itself. That unseen motivating element that Paul knew was inside of him.

Here we have an Apostle of God, literally admitting that he did sin that he didnot want to do. He was talking about his " Present condition", not the Saul of the past. In John 1:29 it says that Jesus has " Taken Away the Sins of the whole world", why do we want to judge sinful humanity and bring those sins back?

Peace.

Ok, lets try to follow this through. You seem to believe that the bible is a valid source of information because you have quoted from it. Now you must also be familiar with the fact that god says his wrath is coming upon this world. Do you believe those sciptures to be unfounded? Paul himself spoke about the coming wrath. How do you reconcile the wrath of god with mercy?

Why is the wrath of god coming upon this earth?

Romans 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

The wrath of god is revealed because men suppress the truth. By doing evil.

Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Stubborness and an unrepentant heart stores up for the person, he stores it up himself, the wrath of god

Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Again we see that god is not to pleased when people reject the truth.

Now why cant god just forgive people who reject the truth? Have mercy on them. Because by rejecting the truth, they reject his son. And he would be making his son and what his son did on the cross out to be a fool. Jesus did indeed take the sins of the whole world and he did take the punishment for it. But to reject jesus after what he has done, would be a terrible insult to the grace and mercy of god. And he would bring dishonour to his son, if he did not deal with those, who even after jesus did what he did, reject him! To reject the truth, is to reject jesus. What kind of god would nullify what his son did, by letting everybody who rejects his son, go free.

Unbelief is the only unpardonable sin. Jesus pardoned everybody on the cross, the only unpardonable thing to do now, is to scorn that pardon.

Now god delights to glorify his son, not make a mockery out of him. And so it is even in the interest of his son that the people whom gods wrath comes upon serves to further bring to the forefront the glory of his son, and the glory of what he did.

And so people will be unhappy with that idea. If their rejection of the truth only further amplifies the glory of god then why not all sin away and make a mockery of him. Its precisely because people who dont understand the value of his son, and what he did, and that talk like that greatly justifies the wrath of god upon them.

To think that you ought to get a reward from trampling on jesus so that his glory may come to the forefront is precisely the kind of thinking that stores up wrath.

If the people who reject christ could in some way diminish his glory then god has failed. So even those who reject him, will play a part in bringing to the forefront the glory of his son, and that will mean taking them way back into the background.

However, if and when their power to do evil has been taken away perhaps in time...they will loose their taste for it. The voice of man and evil spirits who mock and slander god will be silenced. So that his glory might shine forth all the more. God has a time and a season for everything. If the glory of God's son shines forth more brightly on the backdrop of darkness then that is what he will do.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

And you exclude people like me who struggle with sin.

Peace.

Hi there. I seem to be falling behind here...

That right there is the key to to matter. You are struggling with sin. Now if you are struggling with it, it means you dont really wanna do it. That means you are uncomfortable with the fact that evil has a way of executing itself through you. That would indicate at least that you are NOT rejecting the truth. You are struggling with sin.

Now there is another group of people out there. People who dont 'struggle with sin'. But justify it, like it, use it to do and get whatever they want, and live as if jesus didnt have to be crucified for it. Sin caused jesus his life, yet they make a living out of it.

To receive forgiveness because you stole an apple is one thing, but to receive forgiveness for unbelief is not possible. In order to receive the mercy you talk about you have to believe. To recieve mercy you have to believe in the one who gives it.

Heneni

 

[mickiel]

Why is the wrath of god coming upon this earth?quote

Gods wrath is his reaction to sin, not the sinner.
.
Quote
. What kind of god would nullify what his son did, by letting everybody who rejects his son, go free.Quote

Thats the part of Gods Grace that you cannot see, because you desire the punishment of sinners, well not to include yourself, because you sin too. Grace is unmerited absolute Pardon, something that is not in your vocabulary. Because you must see a judgement " Against sinners."

Quote
Unbelief is the only unpardonable sin. quote

Unbelief is not an unpardonable sin Romans 3:3 shows that. YOU just won't forgive it, but your not the author of salvation. No matter how much YOU desire the condemnation of sinners, there is no condemnation of them, only their sin is condemned.




quote
To think that you ought to get a reward from trampling on jesus so that his glory may come to the forefront is precisely the kind of thinking that stores up wrath. quote

When they were killing Jesus, trampling all over him, what was Jesus reaction to that? What was his Prayer to God? He said " Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Jesus was not worried about his glory, his concern was complette forgiveness. And thats why I rejoice in knowing that Jesus does not think like you do. Us sinners have hope.


Your bloodlust for sinners is so obvious, its rediculus.

Peace.]

 

[JustWondering]

To receive forgiveness because you stole an apple is one thing, but to receive forgiveness for unbelief is not possible. In order to receive the mercy you talk about you have to believe. To recieve mercy you have to believe in the one who gives it. Heneni

So being a christian is the only way to get forgiveness from God? Are people who were raised with different faiths just screwed according to your beliefs? Or maybe there are seperate afterlifes and punishments depending on what deity people worship. If Hindu's don't get things right their punishment is to be reincarnated into a lesser form/being.

 

[Heneni]

Hello Heneni!
If you're willing to accept what the Bible has to say about God's Justice, maybe this will aid you: "The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A god of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice." So, whether Jehovah merely punishes the sinner, and is merciful, at the time,or whether the punishment is death for the sin, we can be certain, either way, it will be done with true justice.
In the Proverbs we find these words about Jehovah's scales of justice, and they are always in perfect balance: "The just indicator and scales belong to Jehovah; all the stoneweights of the bag are his." Deuteronomy 32:4-Proverbs 16:11
This is the way I see him executing his justice, and what judge in this entire World could do better than Jehovah? Shiner2

Thanks yeh that makes sense to me. Whatever god does we can be sure it will be just. I agree.

Would you say, that it is fair say that god punishes evil by taking away the power of evil to execute itself?

I think also that there is a difference between destroying evil and destroying evil works.

I think that destroying evil would mean that those who are instrinsically evil would have to be blotted out completely. But to destroy the works of evil, means you undo what has been done by evil.

What would make up for the sin or evil works that have been done? The undoing of it. Destroying the evil man wont make up for the evil done. Undoing the evil will make up for it.

Now man cant undo what they have done. God is the only one that can do that. Man can only be stopped to continue doing evil by taking their power away to do so.

But how will man ever understand what they have done then? If god simply undoes what they have done would that glorify god. Yes i think it would, so why does god have to pour out his wrath on them. Because, whatever a man sows that he shall reap. It would be unjust to sow evil, and not be rewarded for it.

A man can only understand the depravity of his acts if the same act is done to them. Mankind has been filling up the cup of gods wrath with their detestable acts. And when this cup is full it is simply poured back onto them. God does not do evil to man, he simply pours out that which they have stored up for themselves back onto them. So the fury of gods wrath is really only the pouring back upon man the extent of their own fury.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Your bloodlust for sinners is so obvious, its rediculus.

Peace

Well mickiel, i guess that leaves no further discussion. You have a tread about eternal hell suffering, you can tell people they are ridiculous there? Perhaps you are not struggling with sin, but rather trying to appropriate the mercy of god for yourself regardless of whether anybody really believes in him. So in effect you are rejecting the truth. Because the bible does not only talk about mercy, but it talks about wrath as well. And the wrath of god is just as much a reality as the mercy of god. Mercy triumphed over judgment on the cross. Next time jesus appears he wont be here to give mercy he will be here to execute judgement.

We all have our path to take.

Later!
Heneni

 

[mickiel]

Well mickiel, i guess that leaves no further discussion. You have a tread about eternal hell suffering, you can tell people they are ridiculous there? Perhaps you are not struggling with sin, but rather trying to appropriate the mercy of god for yourself regardless of whether anybody really believes in him. So in effect you are rejecting the truth. Because the bible does not only talk about mercy, but it talks about wrath as well. And the wrath of god is just as much a reality as the mercy of god. Mercy triumphed over judgment on the cross. Next time jesus appears he wont be here to give mercy he will be here to execute judgement.

We all have our path to take.

Later!
Heneni

Ypur right there, it leaves no further discussion. Jesus is not comming to Judge the world, but to save it, 1Tim.4:10 shows that, but bloodlust eyes cannot see these verses. You want sinners to be judged so bad, that there is no forgiveness in you. Nor in your eyes to read it in Gods word. In 1Tim. 1:15 Christ came into the world to save sinners, not just " Good sinless people like you."

You remind me of the " Brother of the Prodical Son so much", so very much. The " Sinful brother" left home and took off on a life of sin and unbelief. The " Good faithful brother", who was like you, stayed home with his Father. The Prodical Son " Came to himself after years of sinning", and came back home, meaning he wanted to repent. The Father, who is symbolic of God, saw him from afar off, ran to him, INSTANTLY forgave him, and had a feast prepared for him.

Oh but the brother, much like yourself, wanted the Father to " Judge him", punish him and reject him. The Father loved them both, but the brother of the prodical son, who I think is symbolic of christianity, is just a biblical embarassment. His heart was cold and self righteous and judgemental.

But your right, our conversation has ended, and went much like I thought it would.

Peace.

 

[Heneni]

So being a christian is the only way to get forgiveness from God? Are people who were raised with different faiths just screwed according to your beliefs? Or maybe there are seperate afterlifes and punishments depending on what deity people worship. If Hindu's don't get things right their punishment is to be reincarnated into a lesser form/being.

Interesting. Are you a hindu?

Screwed? God will reward every man justly. Christian and non-christian alike. But the difference is that god has chosen a people for himself to make a name for himself on this earth. The abrahamic god has chosen Christians to do that. And again, not everybody that says they are one is infact one. My personal belief is that there is only one god.

But on topic. What would the hindu god think is just to do? To punish or to destroy evil works.

 

[cardero]

I put this in this section of the forum, because so often people struggle with understanding why god would send anybody to the lake of fire. I dont wont to discuss if its going to happen or not, there are already many threads about that, i want to discuss whether god would be just or unjust to destroy sin, or just/unjust to punish it. And how do you see him executing that justice.

So, what you say?

Heneni

Destroying sin in the face of free will is not much of an option and punishing people 20, 40, 60 years after the sin is no consolation either.

 

[Heneni]

Ypur right there, it leaves no further discussion. Jesus is not comming to Judge the world, but to save it, 1Tim.4:10 shows that, but bloodlust eyes cannot see these verses. You want sinners to be judged so bad, that there is no forgiveness in you. Nor in your eyes to read it in Gods word. In 1Tim. 1:15 Christ came into the world to save sinners, not just " Good sinless people like you."

You remind me of the " Brother of the Prodical Son so much", so very much. The " Sinful brother" left home and took off on a life of sin and unbelief. The " Good faithful brother", who was like you, stayed home with his Father. The Prodical Son " Came to himself after years of sinning", and came back home, meaning he wanted to repent. The Father, who is symbolic of God, saw him from afar off, ran to him, INSTANTLY forgave him, and had a feast prepared for him.

Oh but the brother, much like yourself, wanted the Father to " Judge him", punish him and reject him. The Father loved them both, but the brother of the prodical son, who I think is symbolic of christianity, is just a biblical embarassment. His heart was cold and self righteous and judgemental.

But your right, our conversation has ended, and went much like I thought it would.

Peace.

You are assuming that everybody on this earth is born of god, and therefore can qualify for a prodigal son.

Whoever god chooses god births. He chose Israel and then he made (birthed) the isreali nation. He was the originator of the jew gene. He chose a people to conform into the image of his son, and he subsequently gave them new birth. The seed of god remains the bible says, in his children. God births whom he choses. There is a difference between birthing a nation birthing a child of god and popping out millions of babies.