Is Kali the Hindu equivalent of Satan?

[Jainarayan]

That is why Vaishnavs (and many other Hindu Schools) have 4 regulative principles which reflect the 4 legs of Dharma; namely no gambling, no illicit sex, no unnecessary slaughter of animals and no intoxicants.

I do like a mug of beer or a horn of mead every now and then, so I guess 1 vice out of 4 isn't too bad.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why are we discussing Satan in the Hindu DIR?

 

[StarryNightshade]

If I'm honest, I find the whole "Kali Yuga" thing not very helpful and often times used as a means of bemoaning how bad things are without actually doing anything about it.

"All of this bad stuff happens, because of Kali Yuga" sounds eerily similar to "All of this bad stuff happens, because we are in the end times" that I heard a lot growing up. Sure, a lot of bad stuff does happen in the world, but it's because of the flawed nature and ego of humanity; not a big, scary dark age or personified "devil" figure.

 

[StarryNightshade]

I do like a mug of beer or a horn of mead every now and then, so I guess 1 vice out of 4 isn't too bad.

Let's see, for me:

1.) No Gambling? Check.

2.) No illicit sex? Eh... define "illicit".

3.) No slaughter of animals? Check.

4.) No intoxicants? I'm kind of on the fence about this one. On one hand, tea and coffee can be considered intoxicants, but they're so good. Plus, I don't see anything inherently wrong with tobacco or alcohol if in moderation, even as one who doesn't drink or smoke.

So I guess 1.5 out of four for me.

 

[Vinayaka]

Starry, I personally choose to ignore it. "Oh it's the Kali Yuga, there's nothing we can do, we're doomed, helpless, bound to be smitten, stuck in darkness, oh gosh what will we ever do?"

Sorry, but even if you choose to live there, I don't feel like it. I'd far rather live my life being joyously optimistic, trying to uplift people all around, attempting to sent light where light isn't. praising God, Guru, and all sentient beings, facing challenges with courage and will." Beside, my way is a heck of a lot more fun!

 

[RoaringSilence]

Let's see, for me:

1.) No Gambling? Check.

2.) No illicit sex? Eh... define "illicit".

3.) No slaughter of animals? Check.

4.) No intoxicants? I'm kind of on the fence about this one. On one hand, tea and coffee can be considered intoxicants, but they're so good. Plus, I don't see anything inherently wrong with tobacco or alcohol if in moderation, even as one who doesn't drink or smoke.

So I guess 1.5 out of four for me.

I just ate a camel , then had some random sex and played black jack at a casino while i smoked weed. And i did it without getting attached to the karma and surrendering it to god.

 

[Purusha]

Satan is a twisted word from the Sanskrit word. The Sanskrit word which gave birth to this word is Shaitan if am not wrong. Muslims also in my opinion should refer to it as Shaitan only.

 

[Purusha]

I just ate a camel , then had some random sex and played black jack at a casino while i smoked weed. And i did it without getting attached to the karma and surrendering it to god.

Good...But every action carries a result, that you might see in this lifetime or the many lives that you have got left

 

[RoaringSilence]

Good...But every action carries a result, that you might see in this lifetime or the many lives that you have got left

Nope, karma yoga means - whatever you do surrender every action to god. You can be a butcher and yet be unattached to your karma. Sadna kasai was a butcher, he attained realization . Valmiki was daaku ( robber) . The point is to surrender actions without being attached to them. The nature of what the action was doesn't matter. At-least that's how i understand it.

 

[Vinayaka]

Nope, karma yoga means - whatever you do surrender every action to god. You can be a butcher and yet be unattached to your karma. Sadna kasai was a butcher, he attained realization . Valmiki was daaku ( robber) . The point is to surrender actions without being attached to them. The nature of what the action was doesn't matter. At-least that's how i understand it.

IMHO, this is a very poor understanding of karma, and would open up many to abuse of responsibility.

 

[RoaringSilence]

IMHO, this is a very poor understanding of karma, and would open up many to abuse of responsibility.

no , this is a way that is legit. when a person who is deeply entangled with bad karma , starts to surrender his bad karma to god, he gets liberated , the change is natural not imposed. if you say it opens one to irresponsible acts is also wrong, because if one "surrenders the act of killing to god" , then he also "surrenders the prison sentence to god" and his actions in prison to god too.
It doesn't mean that the natural consequences will change..Bad gets bad results.

 

[Vinayaka]

Firstly, a person does not have karma any more than a person can have gravity. Like gravity, karma is a spiritual law of nature. What the soul does have are the consequences of its actions, due to the law of karma. But no soul has karma.

If these actions are adharmic, then the consequences will be in accordance with that. A person can intellectually rationalise (because of ego/anava working) that he has no attachment to it, but its still there, even though he claims it isn't. Lets not be fooled.

But I have a strong sense that this discussion will lead nowhere so I'll be out. Mystics can't argue.

 

[RoaringSilence]

Firstly, a person does not have karma any more than a person can have gravity. Like gravity, karma is a spiritual law of nature. What the soul does have are the consequences of its actions, due to the law of karma. But no soul has karma.

If these actions are adharmic, then the consequences will be in accordance with that. A person can intellectually rationalise (because of ego/anava working) that he has no attachment to it, but its still there, even though he claims it isn't. Lets not be fooled.

But I have a strong sense that this discussion will lead nowhere so I'll be out. Mystics can't argue.

i respect your viewpoint fully. lets leave it at that

 

[Purusha]

Nope, karma yoga means - whatever you do surrender every action to god. You can be a butcher and yet be unattached to your karma. Sadna kasai was a butcher, he attained realization . Valmiki was daaku ( robber) . The point is to surrender actions without being attached to them. The nature of what the action was doesn't matter. At-least that's how i understand it.

I don't know who sadna kasai is, but they are butchers by their birth and had to earn money for food and not by choice. Big difference.

Karma has a broad definition as others pointed out and Karma Yoga is a different thing altogether

 

[RoaringSilence]

I don't know who sadna kasai is, but they are butchers by their birth and had to earn money for food and not by choice. Big difference.

Karma has a broad definition as others pointed out and Karma Yoga is a different thing altogether

im not concerned with the nature of karma, my question is does karma yoga say that only surrender good karma to Krishna or does it say surrender all karma to him?

 

[Purusha]

im not concerned with the nature of karma, my question is does karma yoga say that only surrender good karma to Krishna or does it say surrender all karma to him?

Absolutely everything and that is the difficult part. Yoga is the means and Karma yoga is using the present Karma(the action we do) to wash off the Karmic records that are planted on us by ourself from past lives. Karma yoga is an act of cleansing.

God says in 3rd chapter of Gita, that idealogy(Buddhi) is the most important thing while doing Karma. You have to do Karma that 1) Pleases him or as per rules laid by him 2)Without expecting result, without thinking this is mine, without the feeling of I (as so many factors are helping to do certain Karma) .

This when practiced for years will purify one. So you ideally failed at step#1 by consuming non-toxic substances.

Rule of Karma is avaSyam anuBOktavyam. You will definitely experience the result of actions, no escaping, it will definitely give the result, when I cannot say

 

[निताइ dasa]

I do like a mug of beer or a horn of mead every now and then, so I guess 1 vice out of 4 isn't too bad.

Hahaa trust me, even these principles are very hard to follow in this day and age. Just do as per your capacity, and slowly as you progress in spirtuality you will automatically get the desire to give up these temporary things. Forcing renunciation is always a very dangerous thing.

im not concerned with the nature of karma, my question is does karma yoga say that only surrender good karma to Krishna or does it say surrender all karma to him?

In IMO it says perform Karma as according to your Dharma, without attachment to its fruits (which results from material desire and hence leads to binding). By performing Karma in accordance with Dharma (which Sri Krsna in Gita says is mam ekam saranam vraja, "surrender unto me") then Karma cannot bind you (because you are no longer attached to that desire, which prompts the paramatma to give you the fruits of Karma). When we are dependent on Maya, then we are forced to obey the law of karma. When we are dependent on the Lord, then Karma cannot touch us because attatchment to God is not material, (that is why Krsna specifically says "aham tvam sarvapapebhyo moksayisyami", I will liberate you from all your sins). But to get to this stage of sarangati (surrender) is really hard. One cannot superficially say I have surrendered my Karma to Him when the act is motivated by a selfish desire. Bhakti is defined as jnana karamadi anavritam (that which is not covered by Knowledge or Karma)

 

[Vinayaka]

I really think the key in seva, charya stage in Saiva Siddhanta, karma yoga, selfless service, or whatever we call it is to focus on the other person, or people, and not on ourselves, and most especially not on our own spiritual progress or accomplishments. That takes care of itself, if we're not self-centered.

Here's a simple example I saw today. I was in the express line at a store, and there was a li'l ol' lady right in front of me. She was having trouble with all the machines, the credit cards, put in the wrong one, and all of that. Seeing that the customer was frustrated, the teller said, (a white lie, I suspect) "Don't worry, Ma'am. I'm far worse at that than you are." So that was the choice the teller made. Focusing on the other person, and alleviating the stress in her. Surely there were no thought of reward in that simple action. The teller used her free will, in that moment, to make the dharmic choice. The other choice would be to scold, or look angry and irritated at the ineptitude.

So then of course I had to open the silly mouth and say, "I'm far worse than either of you, cause I'm a man." Smiles all around, and the three strangers feeling better about how the rest of the day might go.

 

[RoaringSilence]

lets move this topic to a new post- good/bad karma or something...start new topic we trolled out the subject entirely ..mybad

 

[निताइ dasa]

I really think the key in seva, charya stage in Saiva Siddhanta, karma yoga, selfless service, or whatever we call it is to focus on the other person, or people, and not on ourselves, and most especially not on our own spiritual progress or accomplishments. That takes care of itself, if we're not self-centered.

Here's a simple example I saw today. I was in the express line at a store, and there was a li'l ol' lady right in front of me. She was having trouble with all the machines, the credit cards, put in the wrong one, and all of that. Seeing that the customer was frustrated, the teller said, (a white lie, I suspect) "Don't worry, Ma'am. I'm far worse at that than you are." So that was the choice the teller made. Focusing on the other person, and alleviating the stress in her. Surely there were no thought of reward in that simple action. The teller used her free will, in that moment, to make the karmic choice. The other choice would be to scold, or look angry and irritated at the ineptitude.

So then of course I had to open the silly mouth and say, "I'm far worse than either of you, cause I'm a man." Smiles all around, and the three strangers feeling better about how the rest of the day might go.

Wonderful story Yes I completely agree, service to others is a very high ideal. But IMO, helping someone's souls (spiritually) is always better than helping someone materially. That is why I think, spiritual progress should be the only goal of Dharma. But I agree, we mustn't overlook people if they are suffering because that makes our heart tough, and we need a soft heart to do Bhakti. Actually there is a nice story about this. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur was walking with his disciples, and they walked past a beggar, and none of his disciples gave the beggar any money. On seeing this, Saraswati Thakur sat down and said the following:

"If married men think: 'I must not give any of my money, which I consider reserved for Krishna, to the poor and deprived', then they are really showing symptoms of wretchedness, cruelty and lack of compassion for others. They should not consider that giving charity to the poor is a fruitful activity. This kind of mentality shall make their hearts hard and they will suffer of greed. As a result of this they shall not want to spend their money, not even on the devotional service to the Supreme Lord, which is the ultimate goal in life. This will invite offenses in the service. To save ourselves of this kind of deceit and sinful concept, Sri Gaurasundara used to give money and things like that to the poor people during His pastimes as a married man. The money we have, we have only gotten by the Lord s grace, if we give some of it to the mendicant poor people, then it is not a waste of money, rather it is its correct use. Serving prasadam to others is the necessary duty of every married Vaishnava. Even if these people have turned to poor by karma or their destiny, even so, they are still a part of the Lord's family. Therefore it is definitively the solemn duty of every honest married man to help them"

Quite profound instructions I've found.

Hahah but then again I believe generally that there is no such thing as selfishness, all desire is intrisically selfish, and the law of Karma simply gives us a selfish reason to help others. Nothing wrong with that.

So then of course I had to open the silly mouth and say, "I'm far worse than either of you, cause I'm a man." Smiles all around, and the three strangers feeling better about how the rest of the day might go.

Hahaaha :,)