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Is knowledge of God natural knowledge?

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I like to consider that if the potential is not there in the first place, it can not be taught.

Like, no matter how much you teach and ape, it will never have the ability of scientific advancement, it has a given capacity it can not divert from.

If the potential is there, then it can be found and this is what I see the Bahai Writings have explained in detail and yes it is education that can help us find that potential, just as we train animals to find a potential, we also need a trainer.

That is also a concept of the Manifestation and why they have come.

Regards Tony

We are not talking of apes we are talking of human babies. If the potential to learn requirements and niceties of humanity were not there they would not learn anything.

Some years ago I watched a documentary on various animals that were just a step or two behind us in evolutionary process. Pigs, corvids, dolphins and some apes will be entering their stone age within a few thousand years. In the meant those animals learn what they need to learn to survive.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
If the potential to learn requirements and niceties of humanity were not there they would not learn anything.

Yes, we agree on that statement.

I am only offering that faith tells me that the potential is there for a reason and that the human species has a greater potential.

I have found that the potential we have in this material world, is driven by an intelligent conciousness and our willingness to embrace that source.

Regards Tony
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Knowledge of good and evil murdered natural omniscience. Temptation is the beast of eternal violence, I know him as Judas, and right when he says LOVE itself can’t fall, we call him imperfect. For His savior were crucified, and faith knows not that he was murdered by rapist who wanted His eternal angels (females) to try to force him to be gay in some sort of ploy of wicked science that is suppose to set His mind free, with evil apprehension, when faith in life requires non-violence. What would you do if someone were tormenting you in a sexual manner just for believing in love, but nobody cares because they walk the earth, well in my theology I walk the earth for the sake of the human race, no in fact I was being perfect up there then I got dragged off into a war that is unnatural. They check my love? But, I’m just checking love for being a ****er. If pacifism came at me believers all know “My Woman, my angel,” and if I can’t wish to be its because it is being tempted by the devil who passive Jesus would die to without His faith. Every believer knows, I don’t have to be stronger than every other angel in town, but when I went to the actual Hades to defend Heaven against womanizers and men rapist, I gained abilities beyond other men, but for a pacifist to cheat a believer gives the peaceful one a suicidal tendency, if He doesn’t just believe in life He will easily take his own life, but as non-violence and as a nature deity His duty is to protect His faithful brother. For LOVE to let final harm befall his faith because He has to falsely love the women who faith was harmed by, because my best friend has sexual thoughts that he won’t let go even though I clearly say no to it, and now I see him dragging my old friends into hell just to keep them where they would absolutely be tempted. I believe religiously in God, fore without we have grown complacent. Can you see the satisfied man in a iorn mask, while faith has the ability to be satisfied at any time. I bet they didn’t teach you this in school, but temptation is the beast of eternal violence and thus pain. For knowledge to face the dragon of temptation and to fall into good and evil, becoming a human avatar is the Lucifer who fell for you and then was disgraced in His own Bible, don’t let St. Michael be disgraced as the angel of fire. If faith can’t have religion mankind meets temptation for complacency, love is evil, and the passive son must protect faith from sexual violence. I’m kind of tired of gay people, and mad scientist trying to tell me I (they) don’t believe because they are sexually charged for me and want to control my sexuality. I was murdered out of Heaven by seduction. I came here to save you, and now I must save myself.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Yes, we agree on that statement.

I am only offering that faith tells me that the potential is there for a reason and that the human species has a greater potential.

I have found that the potential we have in this material world, is driven by an intelligent conciousness and our willingness to embrace that source.

Regards Tony

Only many are not willing embrace that illusion and grow to be the greatest thinkers. Something of a conundrum eh?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
I would like to discuss natural knowledge and the knowledge of God.
This is my understanding when I say “natural knowledge”. My Tibetan Book of the Dead, I Ching, Bible, and other religious texts have taught me that God’s existence is something that is self proving.
In the OT God say it will be hidden from us.
There is a reason for this, but it is clear that god will not be clearly known.
It is also said, that as time passes, science and education will prove god until the point that everyone will know it (the times of the messiah).
We are born with knowledge of His existence; it in intrinsic knowledge.
Kids don't really know the idea of god until they are taught about it.
I do think that children are much more intuitive and connected to nature than adults (they have much less "dirty" neural network).
Attachment to suffering, ego, and material life clouds our vision.
I disagree.
I think the only way to see is to experience and do mistakes.
One cannot learn without making mistakes.
Knowledge of God is something that can be obscured.
Indeed.
God becomes clear when we detach ourselves from our ego; this is the process of discovering God.
I have met many non egocentric people, who had no relation or any affinity to the idea of god.
Do theists agree that knowledge of God is natural knowledge? What do atheists think of this concept? Does it seem silly?
I think many people miss the idea that god is not a character.
I don't think it is a natural knowledge (yet). I think that one needs to work very hard and educate himself a lot in order to realize god.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I would like to discuss natural knowledge and the knowledge of God.
This is my understanding when I say “natural knowledge”. My Tibetan Book of the Dead, I Ching, Bible, and other religious texts have taught me that God’s existence is something that is self proving. We are born with knowledge of His existence; it in intrinsic knowledge. Attachment to suffering, ego, and material life clouds our vision. Knowledge of God is something that can be obscured.
God becomes clear when we detach ourselves from our ego; this is the process of discovering God.
Do theists agree that knowledge of God is natural knowledge? What do atheists think of this concept? Does it seem silly?

Yes its natural knowledge. That is if you mean by that phrase an innate inclination in humans built in, I do believe its true. The knowledge of God is natural.

But the other things you said like detaching ourselves from our ego, etc etc being the process of discovering God is a little ambiguous. Its true, but more of a theological preaching.

But this so called "fitrah" or the innate inclination is an outcome of research as well.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Only many are not willing embrace that illusion and grow to be the greatest thinkers. Something of a conundrum eh?

Yes the quandary that is life.

I would ask what it the apex of knowlege and what is the judge of the greatest minds?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Humanity is the judge of human achievement

Yet we have a diversity in that judgement.

I would offer that the greatest minds we will ever know, are the Messengers of God.

Yet many others will judge that based in science and other material achievements.

Regards Tony
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do theists agree that knowledge of God is natural knowledge? What do atheists think of this concept? Does it seem silly?

I don't accept that there is any knowledge about gods, innate or acquired. By knowledge, I mean beliefs derived empirically and considered to be true because they are demonstrably able to accurately map some aspect of experience in a way that helps one anticipate outcomes and accomplish his goals. Nothing called knowledge of God can do that. Things said about gods cannot be demonstrated, nor can such ideas be used in any way except as psychological support for those who feel more comfortable holding such a belief. Even that is not knowledge of God.

God becomes clear when we detach ourselves from our ego; this is the process of discovering God.

I don't know what people mean when they refer to detaching themselves from their egos. We are our egos. Ego mean I, or self. The ego is the observer, the subject apprehending the objects comprising the theater of consciousness - external and bodily sensations, thoughts, feelings, desires, etc..

Maybe they mean be more humble, or less interested in one's own desires, or something else.

But I find it interesting to consider fragmenting the ego, separating out the piece that Freud called superego, and projecting it onto the universe as if it were something other than self, something more noble than what was left behind. I've long thought that what others intuit as God is really self misunderstood.

Here's the part that might annoy some theists, because they see it as blasphemous and arrogant, but how about we reintegrate that aspect of the self and realize that the gods we perceive are the best parts of ourselves. The theist will often call this playing God, and disapprove, but it can be quite uplifting. I recall several times when, while living in rural Missouri (USA), mine would be would be the only vehicle visible in either direction on a country road that a turtle was slowly crossing. I would always pull over and carry the creature to its destination before somebody ran it over, deliberately or otherwise. I was an atheist, and had no concept of being watched from above or being rewarded by a deity. I assumed that nobody saw me, or would know what I had done.

But I felt a frisson pass over me when I did such things. Here I was doing for this creature what no god was doing. I was fulfilling that role, and I felt godlike - not in an egotistical way, not in the sense that I was a god, but in the sense that I was the closest thing to one I was aware actually existed. I had taken responsibility for a corner of our universe, and the feeling of satisfaction was spiritual.

Let's go back to Freud's idea of the self - a higher self called the superego, an observing self called the ego, and a base self called the id: "According to Freud psychoanalytic theory, the id is the primitive and instinctual part of the mind that contains sexual and aggressive drives and hidden memories, the super-ego operates as a moral conscience, and the ego is the realistic part that mediates between the desires of the id and the super-ego." This has been anthropomorphized as three characters:

upload_2021-10-24_15-51-59.jpeg


To me, these are all the self. What some people seem to have done is to separate out the superego, project it onto the universe, and see it as God, leaving behind only a wretched, sinful self. This would result in people seeing themselves as worms, unworthy, base flesh, inherently sinful, seeking the missing piece as if it were somewhere out there and more noble than what is left in here. What people describe as the endless search to get closer to God is merely themselves trying to patch themselves back together after being convinced that part of it wasn't themselves.

But if one reattaches his higher self to the rest, and learn to tame the beast, then gods disappear and that person can assume the role of god in his own life. As I said, I know how this offends theists, but there it is nevertheless.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Yet we have a diversity in that judgement.

I would offer that the greatest minds we will ever know, are the Messengers of God.

Yet many others will judge that based in science and other material achievements.

Regards Tony


I see those claiming to be messenger of the gods and claiming to be privy to their gods thoughts as flimflam merchants and con men,

Have you considered that you use the benefits of science in many forms from materials science through software to quantum mechanics to make your comment, not religion
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I would like to discuss natural knowledge and the knowledge of God.
This is my understanding when I say “natural knowledge”. My Tibetan Book of the Dead, I Ching, Bible, and other religious texts have taught me that God’s existence is something that is self proving. We are born with knowledge of His existence; it in intrinsic knowledge. Attachment to suffering, ego, and material life clouds our vision. Knowledge of God is something that can be obscured.
God becomes clear when we detach ourselves from our ego; this is the process of discovering God.
Do theists agree that knowledge of God is natural knowledge? What do atheists think of this concept? Does it seem silly?
No. We are not born with any knowledge that God exists.

I used to think of instinct that gives a natural rise to embellish what is not understood, the thought of God might be naturally instinctive and therefore proof of God lays in ones instinct. However its definitely falsifiable, for which later, my thoughts changed that such beliefs are actually a mental coping mechanism rather than actual proof.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I see those claiming to be messenger of the gods and claiming to be privy to their gods thoughts as flimflam merchants and con men,

Have you considered that you use the benefits of science in many forms from materials science through software to quantum mechanics to make your comment, not religion

I prefer to be connected to the Manifestation, as to me they have shown me the greatest proof of what life is all about and as such, choose to live as they have conned me to do. :D;)

Which means for all others that I will always be wishing them wellness, safety, prosperity and happiness, in our diversity of thoughts and offering naught but peace.

Regards Tony
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I prefer to be connected to the Manifestation, as to me they have shown me the greatest proof of what life is all about and as such, choose to live as they have conned me to do. :D;)

Entirely your own choice.

Which means for all others that I will always be wishing them wellness, safety, prosperityand happiness, in our diversity of thoughts and offering naught but peace.

No god required for that.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Yes indeed it is.



Time will tell.

Regards Tony

Yes time will tell, and in a couple of thousand years or so new religions will have arisen with new gods and new prophets and religion of today will have gone the way of Sumerian and Assyrian religions of yester-year
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I would like to discuss natural knowledge and the knowledge of God.
This is my understanding when I say “natural knowledge”. My Tibetan Book of the Dead, I Ching, Bible, and other religious texts have taught me that God’s existence is something that is self proving.

[...]
Do theists agree that knowledge of God is natural knowledge? What do atheists think of this concept? Does it seem silly?
Ha! No. "God is self-proving" sounds like a theist's admission that they have no rational basis for their belief in God.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
little distintion I raised in my pot on page one does need to be raised again. When we talk about human instincts and part of our genetical makeup isn't a "knowledge of God or divinity", but a propensity for apophenia and pareidolia.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Yes time will tell, and in a couple of thousand years or so new religions will have arisen with new gods and new prophets and religion of today will have gone the way of Sumerian and Assyrian religions of yester-year

I would say its down to years, maybe decades, but not centuries when we will see more change happening, big change on a global scale. It is already recorded that America and its peoples will suffer in this process, but they are the forerunners to a greater peace.

I see all that we can embrace in this age, to create an ever advancing civilization, has already been written by Messages given by God.

It is an interesting daily perusal and observation of how the world affairs unfold in relation to mankind's capacity to embrace what is already offered.

Regards Tony
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I would like to discuss natural knowledge and the knowledge of God.
This is my understanding when I say “natural knowledge”. My Tibetan Book of the Dead, I Ching, Bible, and other religious texts have taught me that God’s existence is something that is self proving. We are born with knowledge of His existence; it in intrinsic knowledge. Attachment to suffering, ego, and material life clouds our vision. Knowledge of God is something that can be obscured.
God becomes clear when we detach ourselves from our ego; this is the process of discovering God.
Do theists agree that knowledge of God is natural knowledge? What do atheists think of this concept? Does it seem silly?
Can you demonstrate any of the categorical statements that you make?
  • "God’s existence is something that is self proving" (Please provide the proof)
  • "We are born with knowledge of His existence" (Please show us the interview you had with a newborn who claims to have known of "His existence")
  • "It is intrinsic knowledge" (Explain how something can be "intrinsic knowledge" that a lot of people don't know)
  • "Attachment to suffering, ego, and material life clouds our vision." (What does any of that have to do with God?)
  • "Knowledge of God is something that can be obscured." (Then it is not, despite your earlier assertion, "intrinsic")
  • "God becomes clear when we detach ourselves from our ego; this is the process of discovering God." (Please explain how this works -- that when you cease to be "you," this same "you" discovers something else)
 
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