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Is Lying Immoral (Sinful, Illegal)?

coberst

Active Member
Is Lying Immoral (Sinful, Illegal)?

I was raised in a Catholic family and went to Catholic schools and was taught by nuns that lying was a sin. To me and my fellow Catholic kids lying was the most serious sin we could imagine. We were taught that we had to “examine our conscience” before confession and to tell the priest of our sins in the confessional.

How does a kid tell the difference between a “white lie” and a “sin lie” or any of the other forms of “lies” that we saw adults indulge in? Surly Mom and Dad did not lie! It was all a great puzzlement!

The nuns taught us all about moral concepts; of course, they did not use such big words. I have later learned that the nuns taught us in accordance with a classical, also called objectivist, theory of categorical structure.

“According to the classical or objectivist theory of categorical structure, there must be a set of necessary and sufficient conditions the possession of which alone makes a speech act a lie…As a Moral Law theorist and an absolutist, Alan Donagan defines the essential features of a lie as “any free linguistic utterance expressing something contrary to the speaker’s mind”.”

Linda Coleman and Paul Kay have discovered facts that indicate that “the category of lie exhibits prototype effects; that is, there are certain central instances of speech acts that speakers easily and noncontroversial recognize as lies.”

What are these prototype effects that Coleman and Kay speak of?

Lie is a concept that displays a core structure surrounded by a “fuzzy” penumbra (fringe) of less clear-cut cases about which the speaker may be justifiably unsure as to their moral objectionability: such a penumbra might contain such things as mistakes, jokes, exaggerations, white lies, social lies, and over simplifications.

Coleman and Kay found that these core cases that everyone could easily agree upon as being lies, i.e. those prototypical cases of clear-cut lies, fulfilled all three of the following conditions: 1) the speaker is confident that the statement is erroneous, 2) the speaker is intent upon deceiving the listener, and 3) the statement is in fact erroneous.

The less prototypical instances of lying fulfilled one or two conditions but not all three. Furthermore, tests were run and it was discovered that subjects typically rated the conditions in order of “importance”: 1) being most important and 3) being the least important. Subjects seemed to agree on the relative weights given to the individual elements.

We see here that lie does not follow the classical objectivist strict categorization. A fixed set of essential conditions do not exist and there is considerable internal structure to the concept that are of a great deal of importance in determining whether a statement qualifies as a lie or not.

Quotes from Moral Imagination by Mark Johnson
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Lying is an Art to be perfected. ;)

when a person tries to be 'moral' after some time their personality is pushed to the side and you get a repressed programed zombie.

humans are not 'good' and they shouldnt put this pseudo philosophical burdens upon themselves, humans should be what they are, total, whole, and cunning, capable of transcending naivety and be free of 'good', 'bad', and free of pointless mazes of moral philosophical questions.
we are the human animal, the animal that subjugates nature, and we are worried whether we'll be caught lying? :no:
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
It depends on what you are lying about and why.It can be the best thing to do or the worst thing to do.

Love

Dallas
 

coberst

Active Member
The purpose of this OP was to compare the nature of categorization in traditional objectivist thinking and the thinking that is recognized by new cognitive science theories.

Traditional objectivist, one might call it positivist, thinking considers that the world is made up of things that fit neatly and completely within containers and that these categories express that which is necessary and sufficient for any object that fits into that category.

SGCS (Second Generation Cognitive Science) has developed revolutionary new theories about the functioning of the mind. SGCS informs us that in many cases categories do not fit neatly into containers. Lying is one such category fits sloppily within containers. There exists fuzzy overlap and difficult things that must be considered.

All this is to say that if SGCS is correct then we are all very far off base when we think of categories as always fitting neatly within containers.

One has to read the OP and think about it a bit in order to get the idea. The idea is very important. Reading is fundamental.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
SGCS (Second Generation Cognitive Science) has developed revolutionary new theories about the functioning of the mind. SGCS informs us that in many cases categories do not fit neatly into containers. Lying is one such category fits sloppily within containers. There exists fuzzy overlap and difficult things that must be considered.

All this is to say that if SGCS is correct then we are all very far off base when we think of categories as always fitting neatly within containers.

I agree.Life doesnt fit in a box with a lid on top.

Love

Dallas
 

3.14

Well-Known Member
specify wich term you wish to address since certain kinds of lie's are "fuzzyer"then others
 

DarkMaster24

Active Member
I'm reading a book that teaches that it's ok to tell a "white lie" in situations where it has the potencial to hurt you or the person you are dealing with.

In my veiw, it's ok to tell a white lie in those situations. I agree with the author.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
I don't think lying can be viewed as sinful. The art of deception is successfully practiced by very young children unaware of consequences.
 
I don't think lying can be viewed as sinful. The art of deception is successfully practiced by very young children unaware of consequences.

I think there is an age when children start lying. Beforehand, they might say something which is wrong because they know no better, but that's not lying, it's just a mistake.

In the Baha'i writings it is said: "Truthfuless is the foundation of all human virtues" and we're encouraged to "beautiful our tongues with truthfulness". Can you be truthfull when you lie? I don't think so. So the answer to this thread would be that we shouldn't lie (including white lie). Word of warning: "Without truthfulness, progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul".

What about me, I find it hard not to say white lies. For example, as a guest when I don't like the food, I won't say it's bad. I won't say nothing. I'll say: What a good meal...
 

J Bryson

Well-Known Member
The symbol of my faith is a flaming chalice. It was created and used by the Unitarian Service Committe in Nazi Germany as a symbol for "offical" letterhead so that as a religious organization, they could use a network of couriers and agents to smuggle Unitarians, and later Jews out of the country. Several lies were told to save the lives of the people who were rescued, and each one of them was as sacred as a prayer.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Lying is not inherently immoral since a lie itself doesn't generally harm anybody else. It is immoral in any context where it does contribute to harm, or prevent alleviation of harm to another though.
 
I think the last two posts are very interesting. You could say that the message is the same: lying is OK. But I do see a difference:

  • In the first one, lying is part of a very courageous specific (one-off) plan created to save peoples' lives.
  • The second post gives a general condition to "good lying": that the lie shouldn't hurt other people.
I understand these points of view, but I have more empathy for the first one, because we're creators of habits. If we start a habit of lying in cases where it doesn't hurt people, then we're relying on our good judgement to avoid "bad lying". In theory, it's great. In practise, isn't it a bit dangerous? Wouldn't it be safer to actively avoid lying altogether?
 

blackout

Violet.
I do not "owe" anyone any "truths" about my own personal life.

The vast majority of people are only going to misunderstand me anyway.
So I feel perfectly justified if "casting whatever light" on mySelf
that I feel will best keep the peace...
or even work to my own best advantage.
(without in any way "hurting" the other person)

It is much more effective to "cast" your own personal light
on a thing...
than "lie" anyway.
The english language... and people's boxy way of interpreting it...
make it all so easy to say what you REALLY mean...
while at the same time being completely misunderstood.

When I speak, others interpret me in whatever way they are inclined. :shrug:
People's inability to think/reason/speak/decipher in occultic/hidden/multifaceted terms
is their own loss. It's not my job to break them free of their boxy thought patterns.
Language is the art of suggestion as it relates to a person's personal experience of life.
And every leader knows it.

So I will both interpret and speak as an occultic artist regardless...
whenever I deem it necessary and/or appropriate.
I will not be taken in.
As well I will not waste my efforts
trying to make someone "understand" the "truths" about me,
who NEVER WILL ANYWAY.
Instead I will "speak to" their "inclination" of me.

As well, the easiest people to pull veiled "truths"/untruths over on
are the ones who "don't believe in lying".
The ones who "don't lie".
The ones who think it's "terrible" and "bad" and "immoral".
Then every person they couldn't possibly think these things of
could not ever POSSIBLY be lying!
and world leaders know it.

The people I love who TRULY want to know and understand me,
I am intimately revealing of Self with,
and will go to the greatest of lengths to share the totality of mySelf
and the depths of my perspectives/truths with.

Also, It is different to make up something completely ungrounded in truth
than it is to present a truth in your own terms.
The first is "story telling"
the second is the Self Expression of a "truth" in one's own terms.
 
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blackout

Violet.
I guess in short form what I am saying is...

I am my own creative endeavor of Self.
The way in which I express mySelf
in word, body (language), sign, life 'style', dress, hair color...
is an integral and important part of that Self creation.

There is nothing "moral" that says
others need to connect with or understand me,
or my personal expression of self and realization/REALization of life
and in most cases this would be totally impossible anyway.

It is not a "moral" issue,
but instead a pragmatic, personal and somewhat random one.
Some people "get you", some people don't.
Nothing "moral" about it.
 
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Ozzie

Well-Known Member
I think there is an age when children start lying. Beforehand, they might say something which is wrong because they know no better, but that's not lying, it's just a mistake.

In the Baha'i writings it is said: "Truthfuless is the foundation of all human virtues" and we're encouraged to "beautiful our tongues with truthfulness". Can you be truthfull when you lie? I don't think so. So the answer to this thread would be that we shouldn't lie (including white lie). Word of warning: "Without truthfulness, progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul".

What about me, I find it hard not to say white lies. For example, as a guest when I don't like the food, I won't say it's bad. I won't say nothing. I'll say: What a good meal...
You miss the issue of being "unaware" and a liar.
 

Rhonan

Member
Lying generally is a bad thing; this concept is found in all cultures - and most do not approve of it.

However, if you lie to save someone's life or to avoid hurting someone's feelings, I believe it's not technically a sin.


If a wife asks her husband, "hey honey, does this make me look fat?" when trying on a dress, her spouse better say "no" if he knows what's good for him. Besides, saying "yes, you're a fat bimbo" would definitely be harsh - making not lying a sin in this case. :D


It really depends on the situation, but in most cases I would say that honesty is the best policy. :)


~ Rhonan
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
Lying is an Art to be perfected. ;)

when a person tries to be 'moral' after some time their personality is pushed to the side and you get a repressed programed zombie.

humans are not 'good' and they shouldnt put this pseudo philosophical burdens upon themselves, humans should be what they are, total, whole, and cunning, capable of transcending naivety and be free of 'good', 'bad', and free of pointless mazes of moral philosophical questions.
we are the human animal, the animal that subjugates nature, and we are worried whether we'll be caught lying? :no:

Does any other animal have the capability to lie? No? So why would any other animal be worrying about lying in the first place?
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
Lying generally is a bad thing; this concept is found in all cultures - and most do not approve of it.

However, if you lie to save someone's life or to avoid hurting someone's feelings, I believe it's not technically a sin.


If a wife asks her husband, "hey honey, does this make me look fat?" when trying on a dress, her spouse better say "no" if he knows what's good for him. Besides, saying "yes, you're a fat bimbo" would definitely be harsh - making not lying a sin in this case. :D


It really depends on the situation, but in most cases I would say that honesty is the best policy. :)


~ Rhonan

Agreed. ^_^
 
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