Is magic and worshiping Nature contradictory?

[agorman]

I see magic (should I write magick?) is most of the time associated with paganism, but I wonder, is magic and worshiping Nature contradictory?

Because on one hand you're worshipping Nature and on the other, you make spells to accomplish things trough supernatural means or I could say, circumvent the laws of the same Nature you're worshipping!

I'm not against magic; I'm just asking.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't know of many contemporary Pagans who believe that spellcraft (aka, magic) is supernatural, much less that it circumvents the laws of the universe/nature. I sure believe no such thing.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I see magic (should I write magick?) is most of the time associated with paganism, but I wonder, is magic and worshiping Nature contradictory?

Because on one hand you're worshipping Nature and on the other, you make spells to accomplish things trough supernatural means or I could say, circumvent the laws of the same Nature you're worshipping!

I'm not against magic; I'm just asking.

Magic and Nature worship would only conflict if magic was seen as a supernatural force rather than a natural one.

 

[Father Heathen]

I see magic (should I write magick?) is most of the time associated with paganism, but I wonder, is magic and worshiping Nature contradictory?

Because on one hand you're worshipping Nature and on the other, you make spells to accomplish things trough supernatural means or I could say, circumvent the laws of the same Nature you're worshipping!

I'm not against magic; I'm just asking.

If magic is a thing, it would be a part of - rather than separate from - nature.

 

[buddhist]

I perceive "magic" to be the use of higher natural laws to circumvent lower natural laws.

 

[lovesong]

should I write magick?

Oh, please don't.

I see magic (should I write magick?) is most of the time associated with paganism, but I wonder, is magic and worshiping Nature contradictory?

Because on one hand you're worshipping Nature and on the other, you make spells to accomplish things trough supernatural means or I could say, circumvent the laws of the same Nature you're worshipping!

I'm not against magic; I'm just asking.

Magic is simply the manipulation of energy (which is naturally occurring), to make change. It doesn't contradict the processes of nature or act against them. Practicing magic is the same as making your own waves in an ocean, it is causing energy (water in the ocean), to move in a way that it wasn't going to on it's own, that's all.

 

[dgirl1986]

When I was a Pagan, I considered the two related. I saw magic as being natural.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see magic (should I write magick?) is most of the time associated with paganism, but I wonder, is magic and worshiping Nature contradictory?

Because on one hand you're worshiping Nature and on the other, you make spells to accomplish things trough supernatural means or I could say, circumvent the laws of the same Nature you're worshipping!

I'm not against magic; I'm just asking.

Mostly neopaganism, from what I gather so far on RF and internet life (rather than outside the internet) seem to be more towards the magick you are referring to. As a pagan, I don't see how being an animist and interacting with multiple spirits have anything to do magick as defined by the new age point of view. It's nothing special.

I think magick (I rather say magic, if I used the term) is more communication and interaction with the environment and people not magical and definitely not supernatural.

That and people worship nature without doing magic while others like myself do so (but not worship as see the environment as "above/beyond me") with magic but the point is not shaping nature how you want for it to be. I never agreed with that definition. It's interacting and communicating with nature so you are a part of it and it is a part of you. You are realizing that you are not separate from your environment and from each other.

In that respect, there is no magic but an interaction between environment and others. There is no worship of nature because that already separates nature from us when we are a part of nature. So, magic is making a passive action-say prayer into an active word-ritual. It's changing passive ways of worship and actively being a part of life and life being a part of you.

Whether one worships nature in order to do so depends on the person. However, magic in and of itself doesn't contradict worshiping nature, if anything, magic is the actual worship itself.

 

[Maponos]

Why is there such a disconnect between nature and magic?

 

[agorman]

OK thanks, my question was just because some people separate what is strictly materialistic from what is spiritual or should I say belongs to other planes. So, suppose you can levitate. In that case you wouldn't respect the law of gravity. So, why would you worship a god that implemented gravity (or is gravity) in the first place, if you prefer to fly? Neo comes to my mind; he flew and played to be Superman because he knew how to circumvent the laws of the Matrix.

 

[Quintessence]

I didn't realize that this needed to be said in this thread, but here it is: let us please remember that the actual practice of spellcraft is an entirely different beast from the "magic" of fantasy fiction and movie special effects. Therefore, no, I won't suppose that you can levitate, because that's fantasy fiction.

 

[agorman]

I didn't realize that this needed to be said in this thread, but here it is: let us please remember that the actual practice of spellcraft is an entirely different beast from the "magic" of fantasy fiction and movie special effects. Therefore, no, I won't suppose that you can levitate, because that's fantasy fiction.

If you're talking about basic magic that everyone can do, yes, witchcraft is nothing like what is shown in the movies. But there's people that actually levitate, do telekinesis, heal with their hands and all other sort of strange stuff. e.g.

The Buddha is said to have been done "miracles" like showing many copies of himself appearing in the Sky. So people who are very advanced spiritually should indeed be able to do movie-like things. Although I think when you reached that level you no longer enter into the classification of a human being. In that case maybe we should say you're circumventing material laws (but not all of Nature's laws).

 

[Quintessence]

I guess, but I'm a Pagan, not a paranormalist. I don't buy that stuff.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Actually, the idea of magic that one finds in neo-paganism is derived from the Abrahamic faiths. Ancient pagans just called on gods or lesser spirits. The idea of manipulating natural forces — producing changes in accordance with the will — came in as a result of monotheism. If one god can't or won't help, a polytheist can try another, but the monotheist is stuck! Chinese magicians admit the possibility of "direct action" but say that in practice it's more reliable to rely on spirits.

As Ronald Hutton said, "Strictly speaking, religion can do all of the work of magic, and the fact that humans have sought the latter in addition has been the result of modesty (not wanting to trouble deities), frustration (the deity has not responded), double insurance, pride and curiosity (the desire to work spiritual power directly), and considerations of convenience and expense."

 

[Politesse]

Those weren't the only forms of magic; there were medicines, oracles, divination, curse tablets and amulets. Many of these invoked gods of course, but not all. Many curse tablets call on abstract principles for instance, or even numbers.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Those weren't the only forms of magic; there were medicines, oracles, divination, curse tablets and amulets. Many of these invoked gods of course, but not all. Many curse tablets call on abstract principles for instance, or even numbers.

And there of course was/is also drumming, rattles, singing and chanting, dance, storytelling, recounting and reenacting of myths and visions...

 

[GoodbyeDave]

So you define divination and oracles as "magic" and deduce that the Greeks had the same concept as you have! The word "magic" derives from the Greek "mageia" but (1) that didn't mean magic and (2) no Greek would have considered divination or the consultation of oracles as constituting mageia.

Yes there's drumming. So what? Some people drum as part of a magic ritual, some drum as part of a religious ritual, and some people do it in a band.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Yes there's drumming. So what? Some people drum as part of a magic ritual, some drum as part of a religious ritual, and some people do it in a band.

Exactly: sometimes drumming and the other things I listed are "magic" activities, just as divination and a wide variety of other ritual and other actions may be "magic," whether or not they fit within a particular understanding of a culture. Drumming is an integral part of the rituals of shamans in many cultures, and those activities can rightly be described as magic; just because it isn't always "magic" in other cultures doesn't mean it's not magic.

 

[VioletVortex]

There are two types of Magick. There is the control of forces within nature, and the creation of forces with one's own mind and projecting them in to nature. Both types are natural, but the latter can have consequences that are very unnatural.

My beliefs center around nature and the forces in nature, not Magick. I do believe in Magick, but I do not see it as a substitute to actually doing physical work to achieve your desires. Magick is for altering situations that are out of your direct control.

 

[Cassandra]

My view:

I regard magic as bringing out the hidden sides of mother Nature. Nature is wondrous and mysterious and no matter how much scientist "discover" (uncover), it keeps presenting more riddles. There is no fundamental difference between experimental science (empirics) and magic. But in its methods magic is based on personal (subjective) experience and science on shared, systematic and impersonal (objective) observation.

It allows science to create more general knowledge (theories) more easily shared with others. On the other hand practitioners of magic can create effects based on personal mind interaction, whose knowledge can only be transferred in a personal way (master-disciple). But both use the hidden sides of Nature.

What is hidden is a matter of knowledge. The practitioner knows more than the ones that only see the effects. He knows how to bring them about. In that respect magicians performing magical tricks are real magicians, only the explanations they surrounded it with are false.

Both methods can be dangerous to the unknowledgeable practitioner. We should not bring out forces, we do not profoundly understand and control.