Is Modalism just ‘Inverse Trinitarianism’?

[Soapy]

"So if Man does not act as a Robot (following God's Commands) God does not provide everything"

1) The above makes no sense - and
2) contradicts your claim that God did not create man as a Robot... "Act as a Robot or else everything not provided" what ever that means.

In a way God did not create him to do

So God made a mistake is what you are saying -- the Bible agree's with you on this...

Where did you get the quote in bold text from?

 

[Soapy]

The concept existed in both Greek, and Jewish theologies, which was adopted by later Christian theologians.

Those are what the Jews and the Greeks referred to as theophanies. Exactly what I said. They were "temporary forms", in order for the hidden invisible God to manifest and make itself visibly seen and known in and through a form. So, you are saying exactly what I said.

Yes, you are still in agreement with me. God clothed himself in these temporary forms, yet we should not say that God is an angel, or a burning bush, or a thundering voice. These are theophanies, temporary forms to clothe the Infinite Divine in order to be seen and known by those who need some physical form to see God.

Do you have any problem with that explanation?

Do you believe that when God manifest himself in and through the form of an angel or a burning bush, that God "left heaven", and wasn't there anymore, but was now in that one localized form only?

Think about that a minute. I think it's probably safe to assume you believe that God is Infinite, correct? That means God is everywhere at all times. There is no place that God is not. "Where shall I flee from your Spirit", says the psalmist. So then when God manifests as a theophany, or a temporary material form, that does not mean God is nowhere else but there. Right?

So then why is it "impossible" for God to manifest in the temporary form of a human being? Do you believe any Christian believes that while Jesus was on earth, as the incarnation of God, that God was only on earth for those 30 years???

I mean seriously. No Christian thinks that. And if they did, they have some serious misunderstanding of the nature of God there.

Are you saying God is not part of his own creation?

The heavens declare the glory of God;​

the skies proclaim the work of his hands.​

Day after day they pour forth speech;​

night after night they reveal knowledge.​

They have no speech, they use no words;​

no sound is heard from them.​

Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,​

their words to the ends of the world.​

Psalm 19

Is God a human watchmaker?

God, at no time came into his own creation.

His power and glory are manifested through the wonder of his creation.

The angels who were seen by humans were visualisations in temporary nature - no holy angel would ever want to be restricted by flesh… nor tempted by the limitations of the body. Why would someone with full access to a high end yacht desire to be limited to a small imperfect row boat? No! But they may USE TEMPORARILY a row boat to perform a task like accessing vet shallow water in order to deliver a package. Their desire would be to return to the yacht as soon as possible - as fast as possible!!

God has no need to come into his own creation - he has myriad number of angels to carry out his commands.

God, restricted to flesh? I think you got the wrong God and the wrong idea about what ALMIGHTY GOD is all about!

Silly question: What is happening in Heaven while YOUR GOD has impossibly squashed himself into a flesh body?

 

[Sargonski]

Where did you get the quote in bold text from?

From your post ??

 

[pearl]

Trinitarianism is the believe that there is only one God, one essense, but that this essence is three distinct persons. Modalism believes that there is one God who is ONE PERSON (not three) and that person is known as the father son and holy spirit depending on the mode of what is happening. Because you cannot say that God is only one person and also three persons at the same time (cannot be x and not x at the same time) it is impossible to be both Trinitarian and Modalist.

It is the 'distinct persons' of the trinitarian formula that is the stumbling block to understanding the Trinity as a relational unity.
If the formula was of a different time and culture 'persons' could have been left out. 'Person', in the culture of the time, pertains to
theatre, mask, from which comes the idea of modality.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is the 'distinct persons' of the trinitarian formula that is the stumbling block to understanding the Trinity as a relational unity.
If the formula was of a different time and culture 'persons' could have been left out. 'Person', in the culture of the time, pertains to
theatre, mask, from which comes the idea of modality.

Hey, I'm not the one who designed Trinitarian dogma. I'm just commenting on what I've learned about it. If you personally want to leave out the part about three persons, more power to you, but then in that case the label of Trinitarian would not fit you.

 

[pearl]

I'm just commenting on what I've learned about it.

Which is more than many Christians, that was my point.

 

[Sargonski]

God, at no time came into his own creation.

His power and glory are manifested through the wonder of his creation.

The angels who were seen by humans were visualisations in temporary nature - no holy angel would ever want to be restricted by flesh… nor tempted by the limitations of the body. Why would someone with full access to a high end yacht desire to be limited to a small imperfect row boat? No! But they may USE TEMPORARILY a row boat to perform a task like accessing vet shallow water in order to deliver a package. Their desire would be to return to the yacht as soon as possible - as fast as possible!!

God has no need to come into his own creation - he has myriad number of angels to carry out his commands.

God, restricted to flesh? I think you got the wrong God and the wrong idea about what ALMIGHTY GOD is all about!

Silly question: What is happening in Heaven while YOUR GOD has impossibly squashed himself into a flesh body?

You are speaking on issues that you simply don't know --- as if you do. "No Holy Angel would ever want to be tempted by the Flesh" ???

You simply don't know this .. do you not like to be tempted by the flesh .. kind of the definition of Temptation is it not .. something you like? Why would an Angels/Divinities not have similar desires ? .. such as the one's who came down to earth .. and mated with nubile Earthly Females .. who birthed the Great half God -Half Man .. "Men of Renoun"

You know naught of God's ways nor his mind .. nor how God came to be ... as this is all yet still a mystery to human kind .. not yet figured everything out have we.

 

[Soapy]

The concept existed in both Greek, and Jewish theologies, which was adopted by later Christian theologians.

Those are what the Jews and the Greeks referred to as theophanies. Exactly what I said. They were "temporary forms", in order for the hidden invisible God to manifest and make itself visibly seen and known in and through a form. So, you are saying exactly what I said.

Yes, you are still in agreement with me. God clothed himself in these temporary forms, yet we should not say that God is an angel, or a burning bush, or a thundering voice. These are theophanies, temporary forms to clothe the Infinite Divine in order to be seen and known by those who need some physical form to see God.

Do you have any problem with that explanation?

Do you believe that when God manifest himself in and through the form of an angel or a burning bush, that God "left heaven", and wasn't there anymore, but was now in that one localized form only?

Think about that a minute. I think it's probably safe to assume you believe that God is Infinite, correct? That means God is everywhere at all times. There is no place that God is not. "Where shall I flee from your Spirit", says the psalmist. So then when God manifests as a theophany, or a temporary material form, that does not mean God is nowhere else but there. Right?

So then why is it "impossible" for God to manifest in the temporary form of a human being? Do you believe any Christian believes that while Jesus was on earth, as the incarnation of God, that God was only on earth for those 30 years???

I mean seriously. No Christian thinks that. And if they did, they have some serious misunderstanding of the nature of God there.

Are you saying God is not part of his own creation?

The heavens declare the glory of God;​

the skies proclaim the work of his hands.​

Day after day they pour forth speech;​

night after night they reveal knowledge.​

They have no speech, they use no words;​

no sound is heard from them.​

Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,​

their words to the ends of the world.​

Psalm 19

Is God a human watchmaker?

Your concepts and beliefs are not of Jewish nor true Christian origin therefore you will always try to use belittling examples to further your aim … whatever those aims are since they have no clear aim!

If you cannot understand an analogy of God as a watchmaker (someone who creates an extremely intricate and complexed system that works in full accordance with its makers design) then all other things are useless to say to you… but I know you are only being facetious for the purpose of dismissing what is true.

 

[Soapy]

You are speaking on issues that you simply don't know --- as if you do. "No Holy Angel would ever want to be tempted by the Flesh" ???

You simply don't know this .. do you not like to be tempted by the flesh .. kind of the definition of Temptation is it not .. something you like? Why would an Angels/Divinities not have similar desires ? .. such as the one's who came down to earth .. and mated with nubile Earthly Females .. who birthed the Great half God -Half Man .. "Men of Renoun"

You know naught of God's ways nor his mind .. nor how God came to be ... as this is all yet still a mystery to human kind .. not yet figured everything out have we.

I see why you have such a problem with 101G…

Sometimes he QUOTES a truism in his inimitable way which you go against.

 

[Soapy]

"So if Man does not act as a Robot (following God's Commands) God does not provide everything"

Can you quote exactly what I said because that doesn’t sound like something I would say!!

1) The above makes no sense - and
2) contradicts your claim that God did not create man as a Robot... "Act as a Robot or else everything not provided" what ever that means.

In a way God did not create him to do

So God made a mistake is what you are saying -- the Bible agree's with you on this...

God regretted that he made man… that’s not the same as making a mistake.

If you TRUST someone to do as you ask BUT they do not, you might REGRET trusting that person BUT that does not mean it was a MISTAKE!

A mistake would be if it was clear that the person was not capable of carrying out what you asked but you still went ahead and asked them to do it.

God created mankind to grow into perfection in man’s own way and that is why he gave man self Will. God create a sample garden (Eden) and showed Adam his he, Adam could develop the rest of the world in like manner.

 

[Sargonski]

Can you quote exactly what I said because that doesn’t sound like something I would say!!



God regretted that he made man… that’s not the same as making a mistake.

If you TRUST someone to do as you ask BUT they do not, you might REGRET trusting that person BUT that does not mean it was a MISTAKE!

A mistake would be if it was clear that the person was not capable of carrying out what you asked but you still went ahead and asked them to do it.

God created mankind to grow into perfection in man’s own way and that is why he gave man self Will. God create a sample garden (Eden) and showed Adam his he, Adam could develop the rest of the world in like manner.

Yes .. it is the same as making a mistake .. you don't regret something that is not a mistake if you are omnipotent .. further .. God repeated the same mistake

This is not putting trust in someone else ... an absurd analogy .. this is about Trust in your own abilities .. which were obviously wanting in this case.

This your brain not being able to handle basic logic .. "God Screwed up" ... Obviously God would not regret creating humans such that he wanted to wipe out his entire creation .. if that was what he intended .. so obviously God intended something else ..

If God intended the human heart to be "Only Evil all the time" -- then he would not have regretted creating a human heart that was only evil all the time.

Then you make the absolutely nonsensical claim -- that you know what Gods intention was .. stating this intent was form man to grow into perfection .. aside from how ridiculous this is .. That is obviously not what happened was it .. God's creation did not measure up to the ridiculous expectation you put forth .. and by God's own admission .. his intention was nor realized ..

God screwed up -- now rather than continue this denial of the obvious .. or disingenuous obvlivion .. what ever the case .. time to fime to adjust your perspective to include the fact that God screwed up.

 

[Soapy]

It is the 'distinct persons' of the trinitarian formula that is the stumbling block to understanding the Trinity as a relational unity.
If the formula was of a different time and culture 'persons' could have been left out. 'Person', in the culture of the time, pertains to
theatre, mask, from which comes the idea of modality.

It’s the arguing about an imaginary concept that is the real problem. Trinity can never be explained nor understood because it is not a realistic ideology.

Every time a hole or discrepancy is pointed out about this imaginary ideology a trinitarian designs a way out which more often does not fit with any other solution by another trinitarian. And that is why trinity remains to this day… and will remain until tomorrow, next week, next year… in fact, until Jesus Christ returns to say:

• “Hey Guys, I am not God! There I said it straight up - Yow!”

 

[Soapy]

Yes .. it is the same as making a mistake .. you don't regret something that is not a mistake if you are omnipotent .. further .. God repeated the same mistake

This is not putting trust in someone else ... an absurd analogy .. this is about Trust in your own abilities .. which were obviously wanting in this case.

This your brain not being able to handle basic logic .. "God Screwed up" ... Obviously God would not regret creating humans such that he wanted to wipe out his entire creation .. if that was what he intended .. so obviously God intended something else ..

If God intended the human heart to be "Only Evil all the time" -- then he would not have regretted creating a human heart that was only evil all the time.

Then you make the absolutely nonsensical claim -- that you know what Gods intention was .. stating this intent was form man to grow into perfection .. aside from how ridiculous this is .. That is obviously not what happened was it .. God's creation did not measure up to the ridiculous expectation you put forth .. and by God's own admission .. his intention was nor realized ..

God screwed up -- now rather than continue this denial of the obvious .. or disingenuous obvlivion .. what ever the case .. time to fime to adjust your perspective to include the fact that God screwed up.

Are you an atheist?

 

[Windwalker]

God, at no time came into his own creation.

Do you believe God is Infinite? Do you believe God is Omnipresent? Or conversely, do you believe God is a finite creature, that may be here, but not there, limited in time and space and movement? Which do you believe?

His power and glory are manifested through the wonder of his creation.

Of course. But do you believe that God exists outside of creation, like my car is outside of my body?

The angels who were seen by humans were visualisations in temporary nature - no holy angel would ever want to be restricted by flesh… nor tempted by the limitations of the body.

Did you fail to read what I said about how it is possible for God to be in a temporary form, yet that not limit God to that form while inhabiting that form?

Did you just not understand the concept of omnipresence? Do you believe God moves here and there, is in some places but not others? If you do, than that would explain your inability to understand what everyone else does about the nature of Infinite Spirit, which is God.

Why would someone with full access to a high end yacht desire to be limited to a small imperfect row boat? No!

The better analogy would be that a high end yacht and a tiny dingy, both ride on the exact same Ocean. God is the Ocean. And that little rowboat has as much Ocean as part of itself, as does the yacht.

But they may USE TEMPORARILY a row boat to perform a task like accessing vet shallow water in order to deliver a package. Their desire would be to return to the yacht as soon as possible - as fast as possible!!

But we are talking about the Ocean, not a lone passenger. We a talking about the Infinite God, not a limited creature who moves from one location to another, like a limited person does getting on and off a boat. The boat is on God, and God surrounds the boat and is part of the boat as it is being a boat.

God has no need to come into his own creation - he has myriad number of angels to carry out his commands.

So you believe that God is not Infinite then? God lives in some space that has boundaries. There are holes in God where God, and creation, are not. Sort of like Swiss Cheese?

God, restricted to flesh? I think you got the wrong God and the wrong idea about what ALMIGHTY GOD is all about!

I think the wrong idea is yours, in that you imagine God as a limited creature, not the Infinite, Omnipresent Creator.

Silly question: What is happening in Heaven while YOUR GOD has impossibly squashed himself into a flesh body?

I've already said that such an idea is absurd. Why are you imaging that I believe that? God can be fully in Jesus, and fully in the entire universe all at the same time. You on the other hand think God comes and goes, has a form, but just big. You seem to think of God as having a gigantic body that couldn't fit into a human body. Don't you?

In other words, the reason you can't believe Jesus could be God incarnate, is simply a matter of physics in your mind. God is too big to fit into a human body, and then he wouldn't be in heaven for 30 years. In other words, in your mind God has physical mass. About sums it up?

 

[Soapy]

The r

Do you believe God is Infinite? Do you believe God is Omnipresent? Or conversely, do you believe God is a finite creature, that may be here, but not there, limited in time and space and movement? Which do you believe?

Of course. But do you believe that God exists outside of creation, like my car is outside of my body?

Did you fail to read what I said about how it is possible for God to be in a temporary form, yet that not limit God to that form while inhabiting that form?

Did you just not understand the concept of omnipresence? Do you believe God moves here and there, is in some places but not others? If you do, than that would explain your inability to understand what everyone else does about the nature of Infinite Spirit, which is God.

The better analogy would be that a high end yacht and a tiny dingy, both ride on the exact same Ocean. God is the Ocean. And that little rowboat has as much Ocean as part of itself, as does the yacht.

But we are talking about the Ocean, not a lone passenger. We a talking about the Infinite God, not a limited creature who moves from one location to another, like a limited person does getting on and off a boat. The boat is on God, and God surrounds the boat and is part of the boat as it is being a boat.

So you believe that God is not Infinite then? God lives in some space that has boundaries. There are holes in God where God, and creation, are not. Sort of like Swiss Cheese?

I think the wrong idea is yours, in that you imagine God as a limited creature, not the Infinite, Omnipresent Creator.

I've already said that such an idea is absurd. Why are you imaging that I believe that? God can be fully in Jesus, and fully in the entire universe all at the same time. You on the other hand think God comes and goes, has a form, but just big. You seem to think of God as having a gigantic body that couldn't fit into a human body. Don't you?

In other words, the reason you can't believe Jesus could be God incarnate, is simply a matter of physics in your mind. God is too big to fit into a human body, and then he wouldn't be in heaven for 30 years. In other words, in your mind God has physical mass. About sums it up?

The reason you answer as you did was because YOU believe God is finite!!

If you did not believe so then you would not rebut with the answers you gave.

An analogy is not to be taken as literal so you took my analogies as literals and answered that they are ridiculous… huh!

You also completely ignored in answer the fact that I said that God has his holy angels to do his bidding - there is absolutely no reason for God to find into his creation Does a king make his own bed, make his own meals, wash his crockery and utensils, … does a king delivery his own testimony… does a king dress as an peasant and go hungry and sleep among the animals?

But all of that is a view from creation! God is Spirit and never puts on flesh - and spirit does not need to eat or use utensils and crockery or have to wash them up or has he need of sleep!

Who would or could do these things?

Stop conflating Spirit with Flesh!

 

[Sargonski]

Are you an atheist?

Definitely I am not an atheist - are you a brainwashed cultist - desperate to deflect from Biblical reality by trying to demonize the messenger -- engage in Ad Hom Fallacy and is this a trained response .. something triggered perhaps ?

What about "God made a mistake" -- are you desperate to avoid mate Brother Soapy are you feeling a bit "dirty" ? God Tried something -- which did not go as planned .. if that wording makes you feel better. God's creation was a worthless - good for nothing POS ..

Genesis 6
5 God saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 God regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So God said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

What part of "Worthless - good for nothing - POS" - is not as clear as day.
What is also clear as day as this was NOT - Gods intention - as God Regrets his action.

God intends one thing -- but something else happens -- something bad .. is called a Mistake .. a boo boo .. an oooopsie doopsie.

The undeniable fact is that God is not perfect... or at least this God - the God or Gods of this story are not perfect.

 

[Soapy]

Definitely I am not an atheist - are you a brainwashed cultist - desperate to deflect from Biblical reality by trying to demonize the messenger -- engage in Ad Hom Fallacy and is this a trained response .. something triggered perhaps ?

What about "God made a mistake" -- are you desperate to avoid mate Brother Soapy are you feeling a bit "dirty" ? God Tried something -- which did not go as planned .. if that wording makes you feel better. God's creation was a worthless - good for nothing POS ..

Genesis 6
5 God saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 God regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So God said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

What part of "Worthless - good for nothing - POS" - is not as clear as day.
What is also clear as day as this was NOT - Gods intention - as God Regrets his action.

God intends one thing -- but something else happens -- something bad .. is called a Mistake .. a boo boo .. an oooopsie doopsie.

The undeniable fact is that God is not perfect... or at least this God - the God or Gods of this story are not perfect.

Ok, you win… whatever you say!

 

[Sargonski]

Ok, you win… whatever you say!

Picking up ball and running from playground so soon Friend ?! -- >> Kitchen getting a little "HOT" if ya know what I mean Satan hiding around every sandbox ya know .. carefull be straying down wrong path..

 

[101G]

The undeniable fact is that God is not perfect... or at least this God - the God or Gods of this story are not perfect

How is God not Perfect? by a choice he gave man? that's a perfect God. so, are you saying that God is not perfect by Adam choice? other words he should made them like the salmon to return to the same stream where they were birth in?

other words, God should have made man or built man as a robot?

101G.

 

[Sargonski]

How is God not Perfect? by a choice he gave man? that's a perfect God. so, are you saying that God is not perfect by Adam choice? other words he should made them like the salmon to return to the same stream where they were birth in?

other words, God should have made man or built man as a robot?

101G.

another confusion delusion - Didn't say God is not perfect by Adam's choice .. This is you attributing made up fantasy to others once again .. unable to address Scripture that conflicts with your man made dogma.

I did not suggest what God should do - again with this made up strawman fallacy --

I am not the one stating God is not Perfect - Telling you what the Bible say about the God who created Humans.. what God are you so desperate to defend .. this is probably not even your God .. being discussed

You should read the Bible sometime .. then you are gonna find out these things ..