Is Modalism just ‘Inverse Trinitarianism’?

[Sargonski]

Even Jesus Christ came to be made perfect because of his suffering (He wasn’t ‘perfect’ before the suffering):

• “In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect [Jesus Christ] through what he [Jesus Christ] suffered.” (Hebrews 2:10)

First off .. the passage is not Jesus claiming to be perfect .. but the unknown author of Hebrews stating this .. and perfect in what sense ? This makes no sense regardless of what the author is trying to get across.

What does Jesus have to say on the issue ...---->>>> ??? Why is it you folks go to people writing about Jesus .. who never knew Jesus .. rather than to the words of Jesus ?

Mark 10
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

So what do we learn ?

1) Jesus is not God .. nor Co-equal to God
2) Jesus is not perfect .. as Jesus is not God .. assuming being good is part of the definition of prefection .. but only a moron would argue otherwise -- arguing that that being bad is perfection.
3) Now Jesus does not claim God is Perfect .. but God Claims he is not Perfect .. Thus it is difficult to accept that Jesus would have been made more Perfect than God .. via suffering or any other process ..

So your reading of the Hebrew Text .. while it may be correct .. has the author contradicting both Jesus and the God of Creation speaking in Genesis.

 

[101G]

Running around calling folks Ignorant for telling you what the Bible says -- is the height of Ignorance Brother G -- Posting "2 Peter" .. not showing how this passage in any way relates the fact that your claim that God only creates Good is false -- is also Ignorance.

2 Peter is self explanatory ..... Hello. this is why I say many are IGNORANT, AM I in ERROR? no. and as for running? no, 101G is sitting STILL.... (smile) ...lol, lol, YIKES!.

now, let's use scriptures in the future instead of personal Opinions ... ok, less Ignorance occure,,,, (smile). ..... with emphasis on "LESS"

101G

 

[101G]

Why would someone want to run down the idiotic rabbit hole G ..

Just might find what you're looking for........ want hurt, compaired to present status. leave no stone unturned..... (smile)....

101G.

 

[Soapy]

First off .. the passage is not Jesus claiming to be perfect .. but the unknown author of Hebrews stating this .. and perfect in what sense ? This makes no sense regardless of what the author is trying to get across.

What does Jesus have to say on the issue ...---->>>> ??? Why is it you folks go to people writing about Jesus .. who never knew Jesus .. rather than to the words of Jesus ?

Mark 10
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

So what do we learn ?

1) Jesus is not God .. nor Co-equal to God
2) Jesus is not perfect .. as Jesus is not God .. assuming being good is part of the definition of prefection .. but only a moron would argue otherwise -- arguing that that being bad is perfection.
3) Now Jesus does not claim God is Perfect .. but God Claims he is not Perfect .. Thus it is difficult to accept that Jesus would have been made more Perfect than God .. via suffering or any other process ..

So your reading of the Hebrew Text .. while it may be correct .. has the author contradicting both Jesus and the God of Creation speaking in Genesis.

The verse says that God made Jesus perfect through allowing Jesus to suffer. The meaning is that by subjecting Jesus to all sinfulness, and Jesus overcoming them all, Jesus is made perfect as a man in respect of humanity. It certainly has nothing to do with being God or equal to God.

I have never claimed Jesus as being ever equal to God or being God. In fact that is the antithesis of my claims so if you are testing that against me then you clearly have not been reading what I have been writing. Maybe you just knee-Jerked a response as it seems you are negative against everything Christian but fail to notice the difference between a true Christian and Trinitarian and Modalist Christian (indeed many other idolatrous ‘Christian’ claims.)

For your interest, the true Christian is one who believes the following:

• Jesus is not Almighty God
• Jesus is not a Modalist idea of God
• Jesus is not a person (God) in the Trinitarian idea of God
• Jesus is a man BORN SINLESS like the first man, Adam and was granted the power of God at his anointing which enabled him to DO THE WORKS OF GOD (which the other belief systems mistake for him BEING GOD!)
• Jesus’ Will is to do the Will of God. This is the same as saying that the Spirit of Jesus is the spirit of God (Which those other beliefs mistakenly claim to mean that God’s SPIRIT IS the property of Jesus. No! It just means that their individual, their personal spirits, agree with each other!)
• Jesus acquired the throne of king David which God prophesied and promised would be forever occupied by an ascendant of king David. Why would God demote himself to acquire a human throne when he already is ruling from a far greater Heavenly throne?)

 

[Sargonski]

The verse says that God made Jesus perfect through allowing Jesus to suffer. The meaning is that by subjecting Jesus to all sinfulness, and Jesus overcoming them all, Jesus is made perfect as a man in respect of humanity. It certainly has nothing to do with being God or equal to God.

I have never claimed Jesus as being ever equal to God or being God. In fact that is the antithesis of my claims so if you are testing that against me then you clearly have not been reading what I have been writing. Maybe you just knee-Jerked a response as it seems you are negative against everything Christian but fail to notice the difference between a true Christian and Trinitarian and Modalist Christian (indeed many other idolatrous ‘Christian’ claims.)

For your interest, the true Christian is one who believes the following:

• Jesus is not Almighty God
• Jesus is not a Modalist idea of God
• Jesus is not a person (God) in the Trinitarian idea of God
• Jesus is a man BORN SINLESS like the first man, Adam and was granted the power of God at his anointing which enabled him to DO THE WORKS OF GOD (which the other belief systems mistake for him BEING GOD!)
• Jesus’ Will is to do the Will of God. This is the same as saying that the Spirit of Jesus is the spirit of God (Which those other beliefs mistakenly claim to mean that God’s SPIRIT IS the property of Jesus. No! It just means that their individual, their personal spirits, agree with each other!)
• Jesus acquired the throne of king David which God prophesied and promised would be forever occupied by an ascendant of king David. Why would God demote himself to acquire a human throne when he already is ruling from a far greater Heavenly throne?)

Well Soapy -- congratulations on not being a believer in the Trinity .. but your above list of beliefs has precisely Zero to do with being a "True Christian" -- being a True Christian has everything to do with following Christ .. none of which is on your list.

 

[Soapy]

Well Soapy -- congratulations on not being a believer in the Trinity .. but your above list of beliefs has precisely Zero to do with being a "True Christian" -- being a True Christian has everything to do with following Christ .. none of which is on your list.

Thanks for recognising what I’ve been saying in this forum for many years…

As for the other part of your comment: If I had added:

• Follower of Christ

you would have said, ‘Perfect’?

The list I presented is by no means a complete list. It was just a taster - and, the fact that it says ‘Christian’ means ‘a follower of Christ’. So that was a given. I said ‘True Christian’ which means ‘True follower of Christ’ and, in this case, by exposition of the scriptures detailing his life and purpose of his life.

 

[pearl]

This is the same as saying that the Spirit of Jesus is the spirit of God (Which those other beliefs mistakenly claim to mean that God’s SPIRIT IS the property of Jesus.

It is God's own Spirit through Jesus.

 

[Soapy]

It is God's own Spirit through Jesus.

Yes Pearl. God’s own property - His own Spirit, working in Jesus, with Jesus’ own Spirit.

This is how Jesus says:

• “Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.” (John 14:10)

The Father, who is God, is doing the works in Jesus by means of the Father’s Spirit. And it this same spirit of God that anoints the apostles at Pentecost, enabling them to do great miracles.

 

[pearl]

The Father, who is God, is doing the works in Jesus by means of the Father’s Spirit. And it this same spirit of God that anoints the apostles at Pentecost, enabling them to do great miracles.

And the Breath that 'breathed' creation.

 

[Soapy]

And the Breath that 'breathed' creation.

Yes. The spirit of God is the breath of God. And following on so, the breath of God is the word of God - the word of God that brought about creation.

‘By the word of God the world was created’ starting with: “Let there be light!”

The spirit of God is the actioning force of God’s desires just as the spirit of a man is the cause of the actioning in the and of the body: He desires and the spirit is acted on via the body.

Your spirit is not another person; God’s spirit is not another God (nor person in God!)

If there were such a thing as a subordinate sentient entity IN GOD such that God spoke and the entity acted… how is the subordinate entity ‘God’… [a] God is not subordinate to anyone in its own context!

 

[pearl]

Yes. The spirit of God is the breath of God. And following on so, the breath of God is the word of God - the word of God that brought about creation.

You're assuming that God 'speaks' words.

 

[Soapy]

You're assuming that God 'speaks' words.

• “I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him. I will bring him, and he will succeed in his mission.” (Isaiah48:15)
• “so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it.” (Isaiah 55:11)

What do you think now?

((Additionally, for Trinitarians, note carefully that God states His word as ‘IT’, not ‘He’. In fact it is only from the Greek translation that the word of God is stated as ‘He’, due to the desire of the trinitarian translators to personify the spirit of God.))

 

[Muffled]

God can be ‘IN’ a person BY GOD’s SPIRIT.

It doesn’t mean that ‘GOD, the person, GOD: YHWH. It means the same as when God ‘put His spirit on Jesus’. Jesus said: The thing you see him do are because the Father is ‘with me’ (or ‘In me’).

The meaning, therefore is simply this:

• If you have the spirit of God in you then you can perform miraculous acts - testament of Jesus Christ after his anointment at the river Jordan, and the Apostles after they’d anointment at Pentecost. For others, the power is far less since such ones are far greater sinners than the apostles and unquantifiable greater than sinless Jesus Christ, therefore the ability to utilise the spirit of God is limited to their faith alone

Of course, some people try to make themselves feel special by claiming that they are endowed with the spirit of God - the worst ones even claim they can perform miracles but really are just illusionists who are trying to benefit themselves by popularity to other people or make money for themselves.

I believe God is not a being with a detachable Spirit, I believe He is Spirit.

 

[Muffled]

ERROR, Philippians 2:6 negate that, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

now, listen up, while on earth in a body of blood he, the "Lord" Jesus was in Heaven. supportive scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

101G.

I believe you are in error. Jesus was not both on earth and in Heaven at the same time. It is God who was in both places, in Jesus and in Heaven.

I do not believe that scripture is supportive.

 

[Muffled]

You're assuming that God 'speaks' words.

I believe God speaks audible words through Jesus and believers. I believe His words become available to the mind through our spiritual receptor.

 

[Soapy]

I believe God is not a being with a detachable Spirit, I believe He is Spirit.

I don’t think you know what you believe.

The spirit of God is not ‘DETACHABLE’ from God.

Your defiance of truth gets ever more desperate like you just showed.

See, hear: The Spirit of God is the WORD of God… it is the POWER of God. A persons WORD cannot be DETACHED from them - unless that person seeks to deny the word they uttered.

God never denies His word. God’s spirit is a HOLY SPIRIT… how can you suggest that God could not be detached from His Spirit as if someone was suggesting that it could … that double talk in the way many Trinitarians work: deny something that wasn’t said as if accusing the opponent of a deniable claim.

 

[pearl]

I believe His words become available to the mind through our spiritual receptor.

Isn't that what one refers to as the 'inspired' word of God, with the actual 'word' being human?

 

[pearl]

What do you think now?

Take a look at Jeremiah whose message is the message of God, but the words are the words of Jeremiah.
Or Amos 1:1, "The words of Amos", and end in 9:15 with 'thus says the Lord your God".

 

[Soapy]

Take a look at Jeremiah whose message is the message of God, but the words are the words of Jeremiah.
Or Amos 1:1, "The words of Amos", and end in 9:15 with 'thus says the Lord your God".

I’m not understanding your point.

What are you trying to say?

Amos is quoting the words of God from the vision that he saw. If you are stumbling over such simple matters then it’s no wonder that deeper matters are problem although you did well in agreeing two previous posts where I agreed and you agreed:

• You came
• You saw
• You Concurred!

 

[pearl]

I’m not understanding your point.

Following reference from 'The Critical Meaning of the Bible'.
Are the 'Ten Words' of God spoken to Moses or are they human formulations?
Compare the two different forms of the Decalogue (Exod 20:1-17,
Deut 5:6-21).
Might be a god time to invite discussion with our Jewish friends here.
In rabbinic discussions how much was actually spoken by God and how much was phrased by Moses
was an issue. In Exodus Rabbah 28.3 on Exod 19:8, God is portrayed as thinking.

Gershom Scholem---Gershom Scholem (Hebrew: גֵרְשׁׂם שָׁלוֹם) (5 December 1897 – 21 February 1982), was a German-born Israeli philosopher and historian. Widely regarded as the founder of modern academic study of the Kabbalah, Scholem was appointed the first professor of Jewish mysticism at Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Gershom Scholem - Wikipedia com
Scholem comments: "With this daring statement that the actual revelation to Israel consisted only of the aleph, Rabbi Mendel transformed the revelation of Moses on Mount Sinai into a mystical revelation, pregnant with final meaning, but without specific meaning...It has to be translated into human language, and that is what Moses did. In this light every statement ....It has to be translated into human language, and that is what Moses did. In this light every statement on authority is grounded would become a human interpretation, however valid and exalted, of something that transcends it."