Is modern Christianity based more on the teachings of Paul than those of Jesus?

[Duke_Leto]

My belief is that it is. I'll try to express my thoughts on the subject in a few separate points to try to organize them.

1. Jesus' death

In Romans, Paul says:

God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

Hebrews, which is generally accepted to be written by a disciple of Paul, says:

It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

From these passages, the central premise of Christianity is taken: God requires that anything he perceives as a slight merits death, but in his infinite mercy, he sacrificed himself/his son to appease his apparent lust for blood, to make a small Semitic group in the far reaches of the Roman Empire stop needing to sacrifice animals.

Jesus seems to have had a different view on his purpose on Earth, though. As he said,

If you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

In his model prayer, the supplicant is supposed to ask "...Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

He says these things before he dies, yet he never once mentions sacrifice; instead, he says "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." It seems that he does not believe one must sacrifice anything in order to be forgiven; all that is needed is that the supplicant simply ask for forgiveness, and forgive others who slight them.

This, it seems, is the largest and most important contradiction between Jesus and Paul.


2. Miscellaneous Contradictions

There are several other contradictions between Paul and Jesus as well. I may not give exact quotes if these are general themes I think are usually accepted; if anyone is curious, I'll provide a source for anything I say in this section.

Pauline doctrine is that the "Law" has passed away and no one has an obligation to obey it, whereas Jesus says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you, truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not the stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

In Revelation, Jesus condemns the church of Thyatira for eating food sacrificed to idols. In 1 Corinithians, Paul says that eating such meat is perfectly acceptable.

Jesus says "God is not the god of the death, but of the living." Paul, "Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living."

Paul says it is impossible to be righteous; Jesus refers to righteous people, and the Gospels themselves refer to people like John the Baptist and Simeon righteous. Moreover, James says "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective."

Jesus said that to have eternal life, one must follow the commandments, repent, and do good works -- in particular, for the rich to sell what they have and give to the poor. For Jesus, salvation is contingent on what you do; for Paul, it is simply that you believe in Jesus, and it is impossible that anyone be justified through what they do, in direct opposition to Jesus' teaching.

Jesus: ""Without cost you have received; without cost you are to give." Paul: In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."


3. The question of apostleship.

Following Judas' betrayal and death, the apostles elected Matthias to take his place. This to me seems indicative that they believed there should be exactly twelve apostles -- not more than twelve, since they felt no need to elect anyone else. Despite this, Paul felt free to call himself an apostle, though he is never elected and there is no record that Jesus ever appointed him as one. Christians nevertheless virtually unilaterally accept Paul as an apostle, and so many of his purported writings were accepted into the New Testament that they make up approximately half of the entire thing.

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What do you think; does Paul contradict Jesus? If so, how important are the contradictions?

 

[George-ananda]

Is modern Christianity based more on the teachings of Paul than those of Jesus?

I'll make a generalization. The more conservative forms, the more Paul. The more liberal forms, the more Jesus.

 

[Duke_Leto]

Is modern Christianity based more on the teachings of Paul than those of Jesus?

I'll make a generalization. The more conservative forms, the more Paul. The more liberal forms, the more Jesus.

Would you care to clarify what you mean?

 

[Nakosis]

What do you think; does Paul contradict Jesus? If so, how important are the contradictions?

Personally, I don't think Paul had any authority to be speaking for Jesus. Paul was a bad dude going around beating up Christians for the Pharisees. He had his vision of Jesus which laid a big guilt trip on him. Since it was Jesus he saw in his vision he confused Jesus with God. Likely he was unable to forgive himself for his own bad actions so came up with this theology that accepting Christ would relieve his of his own crimes against humanity.

Obviously Paul felt he didn't deserve forgiveness and projected his own guilt onto the rest of humanity.

Rome, taking up Paul's banner as an authority of the Church, rejected any accounts or ideologies which didn't support Paul's theology.

That's just my view of how it happened, but I've noticed that when I ask Christians to support their beliefs/doctrine with the Bible, they always refer to something written by Paul.

 

[wizanda]

yet he never once mentions sacrifice

Matthew 9:13 But you go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings....

Hosea 6:9 As gangs of robbers wait to ambush a man, so the company of priests murder on the path toward Shechem, committing shameful crimes.

Matthew 12:7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you wouldn’t have condemned the guiltless.

Yeshua challenged the Sanhedrin for murdering the prophets as atoning sacrifices in Matthew 23:27-38, Mark 7:1-13, and the Parable of the Wicked Husbandman (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19).

Paul is carrying on their same faulty ideology, and most people don't recognize the blatantly obvious, so well done.

What do you think; does Paul contradict Jesus?

Yeshua / Jesus Vs Saul / Paul Points

If so, how important are the contradictions?

The contradictions are a clever way of redirecting the whole teachings of Yeshua, to create much of Christian ideology, and make it totally Anti-Christ's teachings.

Currently watching the Children of Dune, and had a choice of reply or watch the last part... So your name, and timing is magical.

Also take into account the Gospel of John is made up, and contradicts the Synoptic Gospels on multiple points.

 

[leibowde84]

My belief is that it is. I'll try to express my thoughts on the subject in a few separate points to try to organize them.

1. Jesus' death

In Romans, Paul says:



Hebrews, which is generally accepted to be written by a disciple of Paul, says:



From these passages, the central premise of Christianity is taken: God requires that anything he perceives as a slight merits death, but in his infinite mercy, he sacrificed himself/his son to appease his apparent lust for blood, to make a small Semitic group in the far reaches of the Roman Empire stop needing to sacrifice animals.

Jesus seems to have had a different view on his purpose on Earth, though. As he said,



In his model prayer, the supplicant is supposed to ask "...Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

He says these things before he dies, yet he never once mentions sacrifice; instead, he says "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." It seems that he does not believe one must sacrifice anything in order to be forgiven; all that is needed is that the supplicant simply ask for forgiveness, and forgive others who slight them.

This, it seems, is the largest and most important contradiction between Jesus and Paul.


2. Miscellaneous Contradictions

There are several other contradictions between Paul and Jesus as well. I may not give exact quotes if these are general themes I think are usually accepted; if anyone is curious, I'll provide a source for anything I say in this section.

Pauline doctrine is that the "Law" has passed away and no one has an obligation to obey it, whereas Jesus says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you, truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not the stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

In Revelation, Jesus condemns the church of Thyatira for eating food sacrificed to idols. In 1 Corinithians, Paul says that eating such meat is perfectly acceptable.

Jesus says "God is not the god of the death, but of the living." Paul, "Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living."

Paul says it is impossible to be righteous; Jesus refers to righteous people, and the Gospels themselves refer to people like John the Baptist and Simeon righteous. Moreover, James says "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective."

Jesus said that to have eternal life, one must follow the commandments, repent, and do good works -- in particular, for the rich to sell what they have and give to the poor. For Jesus, salvation is contingent on what you do; for Paul, it is simply that you believe in Jesus, and it is impossible that anyone be justified through what they do, in direct opposition to Jesus' teaching.

Jesus: ""Without cost you have received; without cost you are to give." Paul: In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."


3. The question of apostleship.

Following Judas' betrayal and death, the apostles elected Matthias to take his place. This to me seems indicative that they believed there should be exactly twelve apostles -- not more than twelve, since they felt no need to elect anyone else. Despite this, Paul felt free to call himself an apostle, though he is never elected and there is no record that Jesus ever appointed him as one. Christians nevertheless virtually unilaterally accept Paul as an apostle, and so many of his purported writings were accepted into the New Testament that they make up approximately half of the entire thing.

---------------------

What do you think; does Paul contradict Jesus? If so, how important are the contradictions?

Great point. I think you are dead on. Paul does contradict Jesus in many ways. His words on homosexuality, the place of women, preaching to non-jews, etc. seem to go against Jesus' supposed actions and words claimed in the New Testament.

 

[Augustus]

I'll make a generalization. The more conservative forms, the more Paul. The more liberal forms, the more Jesus.

Granted I've not done a great deal of study on this, but what makes Paul more conservative? Arguably, Paul would be the more liberal of the 2. Open to the gentiles, 'The law is written on the heart', conscience as a guiding point of morality. Paul was no conservative 2000 years ago.

Especially when many of the more conservative parts are in the Epistles generally not considered to be written by Paul (and arguably to limit the radical message of Paul).

 

[George-ananda]

Would you care to clarify what you mean?

Granted I've not done a great deal of study on this, but what makes Paul more conservative? Arguably, Paul would be the more liberal of the 2. Open to the gentiles, 'The law is written on the heart', conscience as a guiding point of morality. Paul was no conservative 2000 years ago.

Especially when many of the more conservative parts are in the Epistles generally not considered to be written by Paul (and arguably to limit the radical message of Paul).

I guess I see Paul as more the New Testament theological force than Jesus especially when I think of the atonement doctrine and the like found in the NT. I see Jesus as the more misunderstood spiritual figure that people can mold into more liberal modern thinking. I see the more Bible-based (Paul influenced) religions of the more conservative fundamentalist mindset.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... in his infinite mercy, he sacrificed himself/his son to appease his apparent lust for blood,

<yawn>

This type of agenda-driven adolescent drivel doesn't even rise to the level of yellow journalism.
​

</yawn>

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I think this is more click bait for Christians to debate with each other, or be annoyed by because the implication of the OP is that Paul and Jesus had different perspectives on what god wants. I do find it a bit odd though that Paul is the main mouthpiece of the Christian deity in the NT, the sayings of Jesus have always struck me as a little sparse, and sometimes a little opaque. Paul, on the other hand, is always yakking, a little too much at times, don't think the "less is more" saying had been invented then. Jesus is the MD who comes out and gives a speech to the workforce, long on generalisations, short on detail, a few soundbites thrown in. Paul is the operations manager, the man who has to organise the workforce, deal the interdepartmental squabbling, and answer the questions the MD is too busy to deal with (or more likely just cant be bothered with as he retires to the boardroom, or the golf course).
If I was still a Christian, I think I'd prefer to read letters from Jesus, not letters from Paul. After all, he is the head honcho, no disputing his rulings, but in this movie the hero is killed in the second scene, the real star then takes centre stage (sorry for mixing my metaphors!).