Is Moses God?

[Ben Avraham]

Which elements of your learning proved to you conclusively that the Tanakh is allegory, not literal? I can have a philosophy that the Earth is flat, but it has been measured as round. I can have a philosophy that Tanakh is allegorical, but prophecies, history, archaeology and more verify its literal truth.

Perhaps you have some documents contemporary to the period de-mystifying Tanakh?

I never said that the Tanach is an allegory. You are trying to punch below the belt now. We have the historical part in the Tanach that is literal but one must have some expertise in metaphorical language to know when it is literal and when in is allegorical in the Tanach. To take every thing literal will only promote idolatry.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The God-of-Abraham-Isaac-and-Jacob had become one of the titles of HaShem. Therefore, it had nothing to do with the fact that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were long dead by the time of Moses. There was no living relation between God and the Patriarchs. HaShem was not a God of the dead but of the living.

I meant to say that after Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had passed away, to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had become a title of HaShem. HaShem is not a God of the dead but of the living.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I never said that the Tanach is an allegory. You are trying to punch below the belt now. We have the historical part in the Tanach that is literal but one must have some expertise in metaphorical language to know when it is literal and when in is allegorical in the Tanach. To take every thing literal will only promote idolatry.

I'm not being disingenuous, and I apologize for my confusion. But I'm certain Tanakh says to obey Tanakh, and I'm certain there are no Tanakh statements that tell us "this is allegorical, not literal". You are imposing your ideas about metaphor and language onto the Word of God. I know the Tanakh further says to revere God and Tanakh and never says it is an idol or can even become an idol. Ha Shem rather says to constantly teach Tanakh and have it on our hearts and minds.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I meant to say that after Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had passed away, to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had become a title of HaShem. HaShem is not a God of the dead but of the living.

I don't know how you know when it "became" a title, because God revealed this name to Moses on the mountain. And I remain convinced that God said, "I am" their God, not "I was" their God. Also, if you like, I can show you Tanakh that God is a God over all, the dead, the living and the whole universe.

What you are trying to do is to remove a statement of Y'shua that underscores the fact that God is a resurrection God, and is God both of the dead and the living.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I don't know how you know when it "became" a title, because God revealed this name to Moses on the mountain. And I remain convinced that God said, "I am" their God, not "I was" their God. Also, if you like, I can show you Tanakh that God is a God over all, the dead, the living and the whole universe.

What you are trying to do is to remove a statement of Y'shua that underscores the fact that God is a resurrection God, and is God both of the dead and the living.

No, you are terribly wrong! I am not the one trying to remove what does not exist! There has never been a statement of Yeshua in Exodus 3:16 or in the whole of the Tanach for that matter. After the death of the Patriarchs, HaShem became known also as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Lord Himself declared that they did not know God with this definition before when they were alive.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I'm not being disingenuous, and I apologize for my confusion. But I'm certain Tanakh says to obey Tanakh, and I'm certain there are no Tanakh statements that tell us "this is allegorical, not literal". You are imposing your ideas about metaphor and language onto the Word of God. I know the Tanakh further says to revere God and Tanakh and never says it is an idol or can even become an idol. Ha Shem rather says to constantly teach Tanakh and have it on our hearts and minds.

It is for us to distinguish in the Tanach the literal from the metaphorical or allegorical, not the Tanach. That's the problem with so many sects of religions. The interpreters do not know when it is literal and allegorical. Hence, acts of idolatry proliferate.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, you are terribly wrong! I am not the one trying to remove what does not exist! There has never been a statement of Yeshua in Exodus 3:16 or in the whole of the Tanach for that matter. After the death of the Patriarchs, HaShem became known also as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Lord Himself declared that they did not know God with this definition before when they were alive.

I can accept what you are saying if you mean by "became known" that "He declared" His name.

However, you are yet to respond as you promised, to address Isaiah 49--with over a dozen referents to Y'shua--beyond "no there are no Christian Tanakh prophecies" which is no answer at all.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It is for us to distinguish in the Tanach the literal from the metaphorical or allegorical, not the Tanach. That's the problem with so many sects of religions. The interpreters do not know when it is literal and allegorical. Hence, acts of idolatry proliferate.

Please tell me where in Tanakh the Tanakh says we are to decide when an event happened or didn't happen, when it is literal and where it isn't merely literal AND allegorical but one or the other only.

Thank you.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Please tell me where in Tanakh the Tanakh says we are to decide when an event happened or didn't happen, when it is literal and where it isn't merely literal AND allegorical but one or the other only.

Thank you.

I spoke from the point of view of Logic. But you are welcome anyway.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I can accept what you are saying if you mean by "became known" that "He declared" His name.

However, you are yet to respond as you promised, to address Isaiah 49--with over a dozen referents to Y'shua--beyond "no there are no Christian Tanakh prophecies" which is no answer at all.

Again, there is no Christian prophecy in the Tanach that points to Jesus. There is neither a single reference in Psalm 49 to Yeshua. You have to prove to me by pointing to the text where you assume to be Yeshua and I promise to tell you what's about.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I don't know how you know when it "became" a title, because God revealed this name to Moses on the mountain. And I remain convinced that God said, "I am" their God, not "I was" their God. Also, if you like, I can show you Tanakh that God is a God over all, the dead, the living and the whole universe.

What you are trying to do is to remove a statement of Y'shua that underscores the fact that God is a resurrection God, and is God both of the dead and the living.

What you are trying to persuade me with is that God is a liar. You are wasting your time because God is not like a man to lie. HaShem revealed Himself to His servants the Prophets in terms that once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. Read II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; and many more.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I spoke from the point of view of Logic. But you are welcome anyway.

Please tell us all where your logic or my logic is superior to Tanakh's clear, unequivocal statements. It says 6,000 times in Tanakh, "This is the Word of the Lord." Where does it say in Tanakh, "Hear ye now the allegorical stories and mythologies ascribed to Jewish traditions?"

 

[BilliardsBall]

Again, there is no Christian prophecy in the Tanach that points to Jesus. There is neither a single reference in Psalm 49 to Yeshua. You have to prove to me by pointing to the text where you assume to be Yeshua and I promise to tell you what's about.

I believe you may have strong understanding regarding Tanakh, yet you are again referring to ISAIAH 49 with PSALM 49, so I take it that either your understanding of Tanakh is limited--and I'm wrong about your knowledge--or what is more likely, YOU NEVER READ WHAT I POST.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What you are trying to persuade me with is that God is a liar. You are wasting your time because God is not like a man to lie. HaShem revealed Himself to His servants the Prophets in terms that once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. Read II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; and many more.

I would never say God lies, hopefully, neither would you, although you seem to feel strongly that where God speaks literally, He speaks only figuratively.

I would say rather that you misunderstand God's Word. I'm comfortable saying that since your declaration, "No one will ever return from the grave" directly contradicts this passage in Tanakh, at the end of the book of Daniel:

. . . And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

I can show you other passages in Tanakh if you like as well. I'm familiar also with the passages you're thinking of, if that helps, where from the perspective of the living, the dead are unreachable--and indeed, are forbidden to be contacted, as per the Tanakh prohibitions against mediums (as in the Saul and the Witch of Endor story and in Deuteronomy 18).

However, Ben, our living perspective is not God's perspective. Which is why we need the illumination of Tanakh and also, the B'rit Chadashah.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I would never say God lies, hopefully, neither would you, although you seem to feel strongly that where God speaks literally, He speaks only figuratively.

God speaks literally but, what you do not understand is the means He has chosen to speak to His servants the Prophets; by way of a dream or vision if you read Numbers 12:6 or through His Word in the Tanach.

I would say rather that you misunderstand God's Word. I'm comfortable saying that since your declaration, "No one will ever return from the grave" directly contradicts this passage in Tanakh, at the end of the book of Daniel:

My declaration! I have never declared here from the top of my head that no one will ever return from the grave. I simply mention what is written in the Word of God. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.)

. . . And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.

To understand that text of Daniel, you must first understand Isaiah 53:8,9. When Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the living and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens those graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel; as for instance the Dry Bones of Ezekiel 37:12. Jews in exile. Since not all of them are found written in the book to return to Israel at the end of the exile aka to make Aliyah, those who shall awake by making Aliyah are analogically compared to everlasting life and those who prefer to stay in exile to everlasting contempt. So, words like everlasting life or forever and ever like the stars are those who return or turn many to righteousness.

I can show you other passages in Tanakh if you like as well. I'm familiar also with the passages you're thinking of, if that helps, where from the perspective of the living, the dead are unreachable--and indeed, are forbidden to be contacted, as per the Tanakh prohibitions against mediums (as in the Saul and the Witch of Endor story and in Deuteronomy 18).

Be my guest! I am more than happy to learn of other passages in the Tanach that I might have missed.

However, Ben, our living perspective is not God's perspective. Which is why we need the illumination of Tanakh and also, the B'rit Chadashah.

I need the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach and you need the gospel of Paul which was the NT. Both together serve only to contradict each other.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I believe you may have strong understanding regarding Tanakh, yet you are again referring to ISAIAH 49 with PSALM 49, so I take it that either your understanding of Tanakh is limited--and I'm wrong about your knowledge--or what is more likely, YOU NEVER READ WHAT I POST.

You are confusing Isaiah 49 with Psalm 49. I have never mentioned Isaiah 49 for any thing. It is Psalm 49:12,20 that refers to the grave as our eternal home. I always read what you post, even posts that are not addressed to me although I reply only those that are addressed to me.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Please tell us all where your logic or my logic is superior to Tanakh's clear, unequivocal statements. It says 6,000 times in Tanakh, "This is the Word of the Lord." Where does it say in Tanakh, "Hear ye now the allegorical stories and mythologies ascribed to Jewish traditions?"

I have never said that Logic is superior to the Tanach. You are the one saying so. We are not to expect that the Tanach tell us when it is literal or allegorical. We are the ones to be able to distinguish when it is literal and when it is allegorical. Since the majority is unable to make that distinction, those with that expertise are supposed to come for the rescue with their understanding of Logic.

 

[BilliardsBall]

To understand that text of Daniel, you must first understand Isaiah 53:8,9. When Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the living and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens those graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel; as for instance the Dry Bones of Ezekiel 37:12. Jews in exile. Since not all of them are found written in the book to return to Israel at the end of the exile aka to make Aliyah, those who shall awake by making Aliyah are analogically compared to everlasting life and those who prefer to stay in exile to everlasting contempt. So, words like everlasting life or forever and ever like the stars are those who return or turn many to righteousness.

1. Tanakh does not say “analogically” compared.

2. I think making Aliyah is a wonderulf thing but the Daniel text says “lead MANY to righteousness” not “lead one to make Aliyah.

3. You said the dead are no more but these shine FOREVER in Tanakh.

Be my guest! I am more than happy to learn of other passages in the Tanach that I might have missed.

Well, you’ve made unsupported claims about Exodus 3. Further, Job says he will arise from the dust to see God. And Isaiah speaks of everlasting life and everlasting derision in Isaiah 66.

I need the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach and you need the gospel of Paul which was the NT. Both together serve only to contradict each other.

If you are sure Jesus’s gospel is from Tanakh, you should obey it!

You are confusing Isaiah 49 with Psalm 49. I have never mentioned Isaiah 49 for any thing. It is Psalm 49:12,20 that refers to the grave as our eternal home. I always read what you post, even posts that are not addressed to me although I reply only those that are addressed to me.

No, I posted the entirety of Isaiah 49 in response to “show me a prophecy of Jesus”. 49 includes a dozen pictures and prophecies of Jesus. Your reply was “there are no prophecies of Jesus in Tanakh” which is not a reply.

I have never said that Logic is superior to the Tanach. You are the one saying so. We are not to expect that the Tanach tell us when it is literal or allegorical. We are the ones to be able to distinguish when it is literal and when it is allegorical. Since the majority is unable to make that distinction, those with that expertise are supposed to come for the rescue with their understanding of Logic.

Please tell me where in Tanakh we are to discern when it is literal or allegorical. Please tell me where in Tanakh it says “superior logic, superior understanding of Tanakh”.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Tanakh does not say “analogically” compared.

I know. That's for the reader to understand when it is analogy or literal in order to avoid a contradiction with the Tanach elsewhere which says that there is nothing eternal about man. (Genesis 3:22,23)

I think making Aliyah is a wonderulf thing but the Daniel text says “lead MANY to righteousness” not “lead one to make Aliyah.

That's the same as returning to the Land of Israel is concerned. (Daniel 9:24)

You said the dead are no more but these shine FOREVER in Tanakh.

The dead here is a reference to the Jews in exile. Those who return shine forever and those who choose to remain back in exile stay in everlasting abhorrence. The bottom line is to choose the one that shines and prevent the one that abhors.

Well, you’ve made unsupported claims about Exodus 3. Further, Job says he will arise from the dust to see God. And Isaiah speaks of everlasting life and everlasting derision in Isaiah 66.

The meaning is that he will recover and return to his customary relation with God. And that's what happened at the end of the book.

If you are sure Jesus’s gospel is from Tanakh, you should obey it!

And what makes you think I don't? We just try to avoid promoting ourselves as righteous ones.

No, I posted the entirety of Isaiah 49 in response to “show me a prophecy of Jesus”. 49 includes a dozen pictures and prophecies of Jesus. Your reply was “there are no prophecies of Jesus in Tanakh” which is not a reply.

Wasting of time BB; there is no prophecy in the Tanach pointing to Jesus. The reason why you see is because you bring Jesus into the Tanach. When the similarity is too strong, it is usually the result of plagiarism and Christian preconceived notions.

Please tell me where in Tanakh we are to discern when it is literal or allegorical. Please tell me where in Tanakh it says “superior logic, superior understanding of Tanakh”.

The method to apply the concept of allegory, analogy and metaphor is when you remember that somewhere else there is another text that contradicts the text you are reading and, to avoid the contradiction, you must be able to turn metaphorical what seems to be contradicting the literal.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I think making Aliyah is a wonderulf thing but the Daniel text says “lead MANY to righteousness” not “lead one to make Aliyah.

That's the same as returning to the Land of Israel is concerned. (

Daniel 9:24)

I agree with you that we must use logic when reading God’s Word. How does leaving a community full of people forever, people who out of Israel, and moving to Israel, “leading many to righteousness”? Daniel is talking about sharing the saving news of the Tanakh that “whoever trusts in the Lord will not be disappointed.” You can trust in the Lord while in Israel or in Diaspora.

**

Well, you’ve made unsupported claims about Exodus 3. Further, Job says he will arise from the dust to see God. And Isaiah speaks of everlasting life and everlasting derision in Isaiah 66.

The meaning is that he will recover and return to his customary relation with God. And that's what happened at the end of the book.

No, Job said in the same passage “And after my skin is destroyed”. Job already had lesions on him, his skin was not yet destroyed because he did not yet die. Nor was Job prophesying that God would wonderfully appear to him at that time. Job cried out because it seemed that God was not to appear to him in his lifetime.

You also ignored the Isaiah passage.

**

If you are sure Jesus’s gospel is from Tanakh, you should obey it!

And what makes you think I don't? We just try to avoid promoting ourselves as righteous ones.

You are a Messianic Jew?

**

No, I posted the entirety of Isaiah 49 in response to “show me a prophecy of Jesus”. 49 includes a dozen pictures and prophecies of Jesus. Your reply was “there are no prophecies of Jesus in Tanakh” which is not a reply.

Wasting of time BB; there is no prophecy in the Tanach pointing to Jesus. The reason why you see is because you bring Jesus into the Tanach. When the similarity is too strong, it is usually the result of plagiarism and Christian preconceived notions.

That is still not an answer. When I point out that 2+2 = 4, saying they do not equal 4 in your opinion isn’t an answer at all. Also, you may have told a half-truth, after all, you invited me to post a prophecy of Jesus in the Tanakh to which you would reply, rather than being rhetorical and dismissive. Clearly, I wasted time posting a chapter of God’s Word and marking the relevant passages.

**

Please tell me where in Tanakh we are to discern when it is literal or allegorical. Please tell me where in Tanakh it says “superior logic, superior understanding of Tanakh”.

The method to apply the concept of allegory, analogy and metaphor is when you remember that somewhere else there is another text that contradicts the text you are reading and, to avoid the contradiction, you must be able to turn metaphorical what seems to be contradicting the literal.

Or we can say you misunderstood one of the “contradictory” passages, which you do about passages concerning death written from the perspective of the living, people who don’t know the mysteries. That would be one way to resolve the supposed contradiction, rather than allegorize and trivialize without justification. Or we can use NT to understand the OT even better. . .