Is Pain And Suffering The Only Way To Convince Atheists That There Is A God

[Stevicus]

Your example meets the conditions of the atheist who wouldn't believe if the stars rearranged themselves to say, "I am here." The viewer would be in Arizona. The atheist's argument was the ones in the southern hemisphere would not be able to witness such an event. His argument is one has to convince ALL atheists that God exists. In your example, one atheist passed the pain and suffering which meets that criteria in this life.

However, it could be a different story in the afterlife which I am referring to. There are no atheists in the afterlife. It has been prophesized that those living on earth during Armageddon will be engulfed in flames. That's painful physical death. Also, those who die and are judged bad will have their spiritually perfect self destroyed in the lake of fire. This could be mean an eternity of woe and other varying forms of punishment.

The takeaway to me is what happens to atheists before they cross the point of no return. Not all atheists experience this, but they end up hearing, seeing, sensing, etc. what they believed in their worldview. The voices they hear are what they believed and thus they are led astray. Perhaps in your case, you will hear the voices that which you deem "rational." I would make certain they are indeed that.

Why is it so important that everyone must believe that God exists? That's what I can never understand.

 

[james bond]

Yet the truth is still true and the fiction is still imaginary. Strangeness is irrelevant.

Why pick the scribblings of ignorant savages of millennia ago over careful modern research? Especially when those scribblings are clearly in error. For example, Noah's flood cannot have happened: it would have left traces that are nowhere found.

You're the one calling it derogatory terms such as irrelevant and scriblings while it is true for me while you only think you have careful modern research. I would think your scribblings here mean nothing but just your opinion. Why waste my valuable time?

 

[Looncall]

You're the one calling it derogatory terms such as irrelevant and scriblings while it is true for me while you only think you have careful modern research. I would think your scribblings here mean nothing but just your opinion. Why waste my valuable time?

"True for you"? What nonsense. If a proposition is true, it is true for everyone. If you mean merely that you think it is true, fair enough.

I don't think it is a waste of your time to rescue you from a vicious scam.

 

[james bond]

"True for you"? What nonsense. If a proposition is true, it is true for everyone. If you mean merely that you think it is true, fair enough.

I don't think it is a waste of your time to rescue you from a vicious scam.

The Bible is not a proposition, but more a path. I don't merely think it's true, I found it is true.

 

[metis]

I don't merely think it's true, I found it is true.

For you. And it's very important to recognize that distinction.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Does the title of this thread remind anyone else of that expression "the beatings will continue until morale improves"?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your example meets the conditions of the atheist who wouldn't believe if the stars rearranged themselves to say, "I am here." The viewer would be in Arizona. The atheist's argument was the ones in the southern hemisphere would not be able to witness such an event. His argument is one has to convince ALL atheists that God exists. In your example, one atheist passed the pain and suffering which meets that criteria in this life.

However, it could be a different story in the afterlife which I am referring to. There are no atheists in the afterlife. It has been prophesized that those living on earth during Armageddon will be engulfed in flames. That's painful physical death. Also, those who die and are judged bad will have their spiritually perfect self destroyed in the lake of fire. This could be mean an eternity of woe and other varying forms of punishment.

The takeaway to me is what happens to atheists before they cross the point of no return. Not all atheists experience this, but they end up hearing, seeing, sensing, etc. what they believed in their worldview. The voices they hear are what they believed and thus they are led astray. Perhaps in your case, you will hear the voices that which you deem "rational." I would make certain they are indeed that.

I prefer Matt Dillahunty's approach to this question: I'm not sure what specific things would convince me of the existence of God, but any entity worthy of the label "god" would be capable of figuring out something I'd find convincing and making it happen.

 

[james bond]

Does the title of this thread remind anyone else of that expression "the beatings will continue until morale improves"?

LOL. That's good, but what I was referring to was convincing all atheists that God exists in the afterlife. Obviously, that's not possible in this life.

I prefer Matt Dillahunty's approach to this question: I'm not sure what specific things would convince me of the existence of God, but any entity worthy of the label "god" would be capable of figuring out something I'd find convincing and making it happen.

I'm sure God will in the afterlife. He won't do it in this life by design.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

LOL. That's good, but what I was referring to was convincing all atheists that God exists in the afterlife. Obviously, that's not possible in this life.

But you think that violence would convince people?

I'm sure God will in the afterlife. He won't do it in this life by design.

Then God doesn't want to be known. Why second-guess his choice?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Maybe god does exist for some people. Maybe god exists only for people who need top ten commandment lists and the threat of eternal suffering in order to not run around raping and killing. In that case, I'm glad god exists for them.

 

[james bond]

But you think that violence would convince people?

Then God doesn't want to be known. Why second-guess his choice?

I don't think it necessarily implies violence although being burned to death during Armageddon could be violent.

He wants volunteers, not people who say where's the evidence and when he gives it to you don't accept it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think it necessarily implies violence although being burned to death during Armageddon could be violent.

He wants volunteers, not people who say where's the evidence and when he gives it to you don't accept it.

You've argued throughout this thread that God hasn't provided convincing evidence.

 

[sayak83]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

Then the Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

Obviously pain and suffering will lead people to Buddhism, not Christianity.

 

[Polymath257]

Obviously pain and suffering will lead people to Buddhism, not Christianity.

Only if they want to avoid it.

 

[idav]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

Then the Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

Pain and suffering seem to be a way to lose faith in god.

 

[james bond]

Pain and suffering seem to be a way to lose faith in god.

Not if one has faith. One of the hardest questions a person has to deal with is why does God allow pain and suffering to good people?

However, I was referring to how to convince every single atheist in the afterlife. They would have to be forced to believe or maybe through some divine event, they just believe.

 

[Corvus]

Thus, the only way I see to convince atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

There is no evidence for the existence of God available to disprove. Sadly for you this means you have to provide some evidence of God, empirically derived. Before it is to be disproved and your claim discredited. Until then God does not exist by default, in the same way flying elephants don't exist, by default.

Your Bible is not going to cut it. Nor is your alarming suggestion that atheists should experience pain to enforce compliance with your irrational God beliefs. The implications of your comments reveal you to be someone I would not care to meet in real life.

You could not change my mind with any threat or application of violence, that would only end in your arrest by police.

 

[james bond]

There is no evidence for the existence of God available to disprove. Sadly for you this means you have to provide some evidence of God, empirically derived. Before it is to be disproved and your claim discredited. Until then God does not exist by default, in the same way flying elephants don't exist, by default.

Your Bible is not going to cut it. Nor is your alarming suggestion that atheists should experience pain to enforce compliance with your irrational God beliefs. The implications of your comments reveal you to be someone I would not care to meet in real life.

You could not change my mind with any threat or application of violence, that would only end in your arrest by police.

>>There is no evidence for the existence of God available to disprove.<<

There is no disprove to prove. If I had a $1 for every time an internet atheist wanted evidence of God when it's there right in front of their nose, then I'd be the richest man in the universe.

There is no police in the afterlife. Only angels, demons, Jesus (and Holy Spirit and God, i.e. the Trinity).

Even in this life, if I had to convince every atheist in the universe, then pain and suffering is the way to to do it. The pain and suffering will continue until morale improves.

 

[james bond]

Unfortunately, I will be leaving RF for some time. I have embarked on a new project in my life that will consume most of my time. I leave with you what the Bible says about non-believers since most of the banter I do here is with atheists and agnostics.

Non Believers


2 John 1:9-11 ESV / 591 helpful votes
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.


2 Corinthians 6:14 ESV / 383 helpful votes
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?


1 Corinthians 15:33 ESV / 373 helpful votes
Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”


1 Corinthians 7:13-14 ESV / 320 helpful votes
If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.


John 3:16 ESV / 250 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 249 helpful votes
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Proverbs 3:5-7 ESV / 248 helpful votes
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.


1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ESV / 214 helpful votes
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”


2 Corinthians 4:4 ESV / 213 helpful votes
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


2 Chronicles 15:12-13 ESV / 212 helpful votes
And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.


Psalm 14:1 ESV / 127 helpful votes
To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.


1 Corinthians 7:12-16:24 ESV / 112 helpful votes
To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? ...

The rest here (too much to list)

What Does the Bible Say About Non Believers?

 

[Corvus]

Unfortunately, I will be leaving RF for some time. I have embarked on a new project in my life that will consume most of my time. I leave with you what the Bible says about non-believers since most of the banter I do here is with atheists and agnostics.

Non Believers


2 John 1:9-11 ESV / 591 helpful votes
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.


2 Corinthians 6:14 ESV / 383 helpful votes
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?


1 Corinthians 15:33 ESV / 373 helpful votes
Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”


1 Corinthians 7:13-14 ESV / 320 helpful votes
If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.


John 3:16 ESV / 250 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 249 helpful votes
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Proverbs 3:5-7 ESV / 248 helpful votes
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.


1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ESV / 214 helpful votes
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”


2 Corinthians 4:4 ESV / 213 helpful votes
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


2 Chronicles 15:12-13 ESV / 212 helpful votes
And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.


Psalm 14:1 ESV / 127 helpful votes
To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.


1 Corinthians 7:12-16:24 ESV / 112 helpful votes
To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? ...

The rest here (too much to list)

What Does the Bible Say About Non Believers?

Yawn...nothing more tedious than being preached at. If I wanted that, I'd go to church. Good luck with your new endeavours.