Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
I'm not ignoring your questions, just trying to decide whether to answer here or elsewhere, in either a public thread or private Conversation.
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Is progressive revelation believable?
- Thread starter od19g6
- Start date
The Kitab-i-Iqan is that proof. The proof of a Progression of Messages from God and a proof that who wrote it, gave it from God.
If it is not its own proof, surely the Muslims would have been able to negate the strength of its arguments.
Regards Tony
I am Baha'i and believe in the Revelation of the Kitab-i-qan, but proof is subjective to those that believe in this case. Yes, @paarsurrey believes he has proved the Kitab-i-qan and the Baha'i Revelation false, based on his assumptions and belief. This is the classic problem between the view of different religions, which can only be resolved by the touchstone of the heart.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
If I may, the problem is not lack of data, because, the context is religious.
The problem is the apparent resentment of the so-called first revelation and the false negative stereotypes that are encouraged by Bahaullah and then regurgitated by his disciples.
Yes the Books are the Balance.
Thus it becomes our choice as to how to how we see them.
Regards Tony
Why not start with an explanation of Hebrews 8:13?
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
wandering peacefully
Which way to the woods?
I don't think I missed any posts but if I did I apologize. I asked what "new spiritual laws for this day" do the Baha'I propose which are exclusive to their religion and are not in this day, followed by atheists, humanist, or followers of other religions?
I only asked for a couple. And being that the entire claim for Baha'i is that it is needed because of the new laws and practices in order to save humanity and that all other religions are outdated and should now follow Baha'i, I would think that would be a major question they would be jumping up and down to answer.
However, I have asked several times in various threads over several months and have never received an answer other than investigate it myself. It just doesn't make sense. Something just doesn't add up.
I only asked for a couple. And being that the entire claim for Baha'i is that it is needed because of the new laws and practices in order to save humanity and that all other religions are outdated and should now follow Baha'i, I would think that would be a major question they would be jumping up and down to answer.
However, I have asked several times in various threads over several months and have never received an answer other than investigate it myself. It just doesn't make sense. Something just doesn't add up.
'We' refers to Catholics as a church. @adrian009 specifically asked me for the Catholic understanding, so I was speaking both in a personal capacity and in terms of our broader theology.
Yup, there's no divinely ordained law for the state in orthodox Christianity.
When the ceremonial, cultic, judicial and penal aspects of the Mosaic law were annulled in the early church - no other 'revealed' legal system was put in their place, because there can't be a religious law valid for all societies everywhere and Jesus explicitly refrained from legislating one anyway. We have conscience and reason for that (albeit, if your a Christian, guided by divine revelation), which are our God-given natural means of ascertaining moral truth.
If I may ask, why are you of the opinion that this (in the Christian understanding, necessary corollary of being "not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ" (Galatians 2:16)) implies that I do not "require Jesus"? I'm not sure I quite follow.
If by this your meaning is that I do not require Jesus issuing positive laws for my country or the world (like Moses did for Israel with the Torah, Muhammad for the Ummah with Shariah and Baha'u'llah for a future Baha'i Commonwealth in the Aqdas), then yes, that's absolutely true. Jesus didn't issue or write any laws for the state, because that's the "things of Caesar", not of God. He taught faith and morals (as does the Church), which included new forms of social life (but not lawmaking).
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It's a pattern to avoid answering questions. Get used to it.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Can you think of any aspect of humanity (apart from technology) which could show that it has advanced in 'civilisation'?
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
But Bahai is tribalism.
If you don't belong in the tribe of Bahai, then in a Bahai World you won't get a vote for who will lead you.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Some technologies have had a side effect of regression, not progression. My old landlord, a retired doctor, Scottish to the core (you would have liked him) commented on medicine, and in particular the ability to keep a person in a vegetative state alive. He lamented, "Medicine has become a demonstration of science. It used to be a demonstration of humanity."
I'm waiting eagerly for the scold now.
You said it.
I have posted similar lists previously, and you may have missed it.
The following are Baha'i principles for the New Age:
From: Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia
Social principles
The following principles are frequently listed as a quick summary of the Baháʼí teachings. They are derived from transcripts of speeches given by ʻAbdu'l-Bahá during his tour of Europe and North America in 1912.[38][39] The list is not authoritative and a variety of such lists circulate.[29][40]
- Unity of God
- Unity of religion
- Unity of humanity
- Equality between women and men
- Elimination of all forms of prejudice
- World peace and a new world order
- Harmony of religion and science
- Independent investigation of truth
- Universal compulsory education
- Universal auxiliary language
- Obedience to government and non-involvement in partisan politics.
- Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty
- Prohibition of slavery.
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dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Everyone becomes a hypocrite sooner or later.But Bahai is tribalism.
If you don't belong in the tribe of Bahai, then in a Bahai World you won't get a vote for who will lead you.
The only difference being: to what extent and whether or not the condition is temporary.
The Baha'i Faith simply considers the Later Day Saints on of the many churches of Christianity
Belief in the need for universal compulsory education actually has a long historical pedigree, going back many centuries.
Pierre Dubois (c. 1255 – after. 1321) a medieval French canon lawyer, advocated egalitarian state-funded education for boys and girls equally; whereby the most talented children of every social class, gender and kingdom in Europe would be trained at internationally-run schools. He also taught basic universal education for all children, writing:
"It is especially desirable that every catholic should know written figures, the situation and places of the elements, their magnitude and shapes the thickness of the celestial orbs, their magnitude; the velocity, motion, and influences of sun, moon, and other stars; and how small the earth is compared to them, and how great with respect to man"
See:
The Codification of Public International Law
By Ramaa Prasad Dhokalia
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DHa7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=pierre+dubois+education+international+schools+medieval&source=bl&ots=XbkNpkmOLv&sig=IH3G0rdf29cklAF2NINR0aMcyEg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigxdf_54_cAhWKKcAKHZ-PBw8Q6AEIVzAE#v=onepage&q=pierre dubois education international schools medieval&f=false
Dubois was the first to propose an international court of arbitration. He urged that a state waging war be boycotted...a recommendation that received notice only six centuries later, in the Covenant of the League of Nations.
He advocated that the money that would be saved through the abolition of wars should be used for the establishment of international schools, and was thus one of the earliest proponents of international education.
Here's a link to his 1309 Scheme of Education:He advocated that the money that would be saved through the abolition of wars should be used for the establishment of international schools, and was thus one of the earliest proponents of international education.
Pierre Dubois' Scheme of Education, 1309
In each province, according to the resources of the localities available for this purpose and the size of the population, instead of the priories of the Templars or Hospitalers there located, there should be established what would be more opportune for this purpose two or more schools for boys and about the same number for girls, who should be chosen to be instructed there at the age of four or five years...
These students and their teachers shall live on the goods of the said priories and the funds provided for the Holy Land, or as the trustees of the foundation, selected by the archbishop with the advice of skilled suffragans, may see fit to arrange.
All these children shall be instructed first in the Latin language to the extent that they know it sufficiently, or at first little by little; and after that they shall be instructed more fully, some of them in Greek, others in Arabic, and so with other literary idioms, especially of the catholics in the far east, so that in the end the Roman church and likewise catholic princes may through them, instructed in speaking and writing in all languages, communicate with all men, drawing them to the catholic faith and the unity of its single head.
Now when the youth are instructed in grammar, in which the younger are occupied, if some are instructed in logic, so much the better. Of whom let some be rapidly instructed in the articles of faith and sacraments the Old and New Testaments; so that instructed, as soon as they are prepared, they may be sent to the said land to take charge of souls and may be promoted to the priesthood, and provision be made for the churches and people. Let others be trained in medicine, others in surgery both human and veterinary, by whom the whole army and populace of both sexes may be helped.
Girls should be instructed in medicine and surgery with other subjects prerequisite to these. These girls, thus trained and knowing how to write...
It could hardly help but be the case that they, nobler and richer than other matrons and everywhere having knowledge of medicine and surgery and experimental science, would attract matrons who required their counsels, who admired their prudence and proficiency, and who loved them on these accounts could attract these strongly to communicating with them, delighting and agreeing in the same articles of faith and sacraments.
Also any future pope, at such time as such persons could be instructed in the idioms of oriental catholics, would keep near his court such elegantly lettered persons through whom he could write to the prelates and other magnates of those regions. Greek scholars could easily be procured for this purpose. Moreover, when in the more remote schools many were well founded in Latin and Greek, those who seemed to get on better than the others and were more teachable should be selected to study, hear lectures, and afterwards teach, some in civil and canon law, others in astronomy and in other mathematical and natural sciences, others in theology, others in medicine...
By provision of schools of this sort and transmission of instructors of both sexes to oriental parts we westerners would get trade in precious commodities abounding in those regions, lacking to us and very dear here, and we would import them cheaply once the world were made catholic....
Then let them begin to hear natural science...
Moreover, in mathematical sciences on account of their many utilities, especially touched upon in the little book Super utilitatibus made by brother Roger Bacon of the Order of Minorites, it will be advisable to instruct some disciples of this foundation, as they shall appear to show intelligence, skill, and speed therein, but rather dwelling on those matters which may be of service in taking and keeping the Holy Land.
It is especially desirable that every catholic should know written figures, the situation and places of the elements, their magnitude and shapes the thickness of the celestial orbs, their magnitude; the velocity, motion, and influences of sun, moon, and other stars; and how small the earth is compared to them, and how great with respect to man; so that admiration of these may swell the praise of their Creator, and that, repelling the lust for things worldly, man may not grow proud because of all these inferior things, which are as nothing in the universe that contains them all, and should be regarded as nothing....
It will be advisable that all the girls of the foundation like the males be instructed in Latin grammar, afterwards in logic, and in one other language, later in the rudiments of natural science, finally in surgery and medicine.
These students and their teachers shall live on the goods of the said priories and the funds provided for the Holy Land, or as the trustees of the foundation, selected by the archbishop with the advice of skilled suffragans, may see fit to arrange.
All these children shall be instructed first in the Latin language to the extent that they know it sufficiently, or at first little by little; and after that they shall be instructed more fully, some of them in Greek, others in Arabic, and so with other literary idioms, especially of the catholics in the far east, so that in the end the Roman church and likewise catholic princes may through them, instructed in speaking and writing in all languages, communicate with all men, drawing them to the catholic faith and the unity of its single head.
Now when the youth are instructed in grammar, in which the younger are occupied, if some are instructed in logic, so much the better. Of whom let some be rapidly instructed in the articles of faith and sacraments the Old and New Testaments; so that instructed, as soon as they are prepared, they may be sent to the said land to take charge of souls and may be promoted to the priesthood, and provision be made for the churches and people. Let others be trained in medicine, others in surgery both human and veterinary, by whom the whole army and populace of both sexes may be helped.
Girls should be instructed in medicine and surgery with other subjects prerequisite to these. These girls, thus trained and knowing how to write...
It could hardly help but be the case that they, nobler and richer than other matrons and everywhere having knowledge of medicine and surgery and experimental science, would attract matrons who required their counsels, who admired their prudence and proficiency, and who loved them on these accounts could attract these strongly to communicating with them, delighting and agreeing in the same articles of faith and sacraments.
Also any future pope, at such time as such persons could be instructed in the idioms of oriental catholics, would keep near his court such elegantly lettered persons through whom he could write to the prelates and other magnates of those regions. Greek scholars could easily be procured for this purpose. Moreover, when in the more remote schools many were well founded in Latin and Greek, those who seemed to get on better than the others and were more teachable should be selected to study, hear lectures, and afterwards teach, some in civil and canon law, others in astronomy and in other mathematical and natural sciences, others in theology, others in medicine...
By provision of schools of this sort and transmission of instructors of both sexes to oriental parts we westerners would get trade in precious commodities abounding in those regions, lacking to us and very dear here, and we would import them cheaply once the world were made catholic....
Then let them begin to hear natural science...
Moreover, in mathematical sciences on account of their many utilities, especially touched upon in the little book Super utilitatibus made by brother Roger Bacon of the Order of Minorites, it will be advisable to instruct some disciples of this foundation, as they shall appear to show intelligence, skill, and speed therein, but rather dwelling on those matters which may be of service in taking and keeping the Holy Land.
It is especially desirable that every catholic should know written figures, the situation and places of the elements, their magnitude and shapes the thickness of the celestial orbs, their magnitude; the velocity, motion, and influences of sun, moon, and other stars; and how small the earth is compared to them, and how great with respect to man; so that admiration of these may swell the praise of their Creator, and that, repelling the lust for things worldly, man may not grow proud because of all these inferior things, which are as nothing in the universe that contains them all, and should be regarded as nothing....
It will be advisable that all the girls of the foundation like the males be instructed in Latin grammar, afterwards in logic, and in one other language, later in the rudiments of natural science, finally in surgery and medicine.
Later on, the 17th century Protestant theologian Comenius:
John Amos Comenius - Wikipedia
John Amos Comenius (Czech: Jan Amos Komenský; German: Johann Amos Comenius; Latinized: Ioannes Amos Comenius; 28 March 1592 – 15 November 1670)[1] was a Czech philosopher, pedagogue and theologian from the Margraviate of Moravia[2][3] and is considered the father of modern education.[4][5]
He served as the last bishop of Unity of the Brethren and became a religious refugee and one of the earliest champions of universal education. As an educator and theologian, he led schools and advised governments across Protestant Europe through the middle of the seventeenth century.
[He] supported lifelong learning and development of logical thinking by moving from dull memorization, presented and supported the idea of equal opportunity for impoverished children, opened doors to education for women, and made instruction universal and practical.
He served as the last bishop of Unity of the Brethren and became a religious refugee and one of the earliest champions of universal education. As an educator and theologian, he led schools and advised governments across Protestant Europe through the middle of the seventeenth century.
[He] supported lifelong learning and development of logical thinking by moving from dull memorization, presented and supported the idea of equal opportunity for impoverished children, opened doors to education for women, and made instruction universal and practical.
Given its attestation that far back, I doubt it could have been posited as unique in the 19th century.
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The question is answered in this thread and has been addressed previously by me in other threads.
It was unique as apart of the Revelation itself in the Baha'i writings.