Its fine critically evaluate ideas. We should remember they may be cherished beliefs of another and so even then care and moderation is required. Criticising people and telling them their faults is risky.
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Is progressive revelation believable?
- Thread starter od19g6
- Start date
Its fine critically evaluate ideas. We should remember they may be cherished beliefs of another and so even then care and moderation is required. Criticising people and telling them their faults is risky.
I’ll try to provide constructive feedback.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Right... here;s the thing though.
Most people take thing personally. If I insult the TV show Grey's Anatomy... a fan of the TV show may take that as a personal attack.
Same thing could happen here. And that means... hey.. I should probably give up on conversing with anyone round here... especially Baha'i because a lot of people pick on that belief system. Knowing that, I can't say a dang thing. I can't ask anything.
All I can do is nod and agree, and send people "hearts" when I think they say something kind.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Sorry. My trigger is dodging a simple yes or no question.
I am hearing you say: "No daniel, I will not be honest with you. If I think you're being disrespectful, I will not tell you.".
You didn't say that. but the non-answer is enough. I can't ask you anything about progressive revelation. I though it was logical at the beginning of the thread. And I now I have changed my mind. Now I don't think it's logical at all.
'nuff said.
And I can't see any other way out of it. Cause I can't get honest answers to simple questions.
And so, Baha'i is forever off-limits to me. So be it.
The Baha’is certainly experience criticism on RF. It does not bother me and I doubt if it bothers my friends too much either.
I have no problem with you not agreeing with some of our fundamental beliefs.
Wow. Ok. I’m just being honest and open in my responses to you. I can’t guarantee to deliver what you want, plain and simple. I can see you’re triggered. Let’s leave it be.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Adrian.
You don't know me.
You can't tell if I'm triggered or not.
That judgment you just made against me.. is insulting.
I am just a passionate person. The fact that you have labeled it anything different is confirmation that dialog between us is a failure.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
@adrian009 ,
Here'a an example of a classic dodge:
Person1: "Hey dear, I made you some soup. It's a new recipe, will you tell me if it's too salty?"
Person2: "I'll tell you if I like it."
Do you see what happened here? Person1 is asking whether or not the soup is salty. Person2 declined to tell them that. Do you see that?
Taken at face value, will Person1 ever know if the soup is too salty? NO.
Why? because if all Person2 says is "I didn't like it." Does Person1 know whether or not the soup is too salty? NO.
Is any of this making sense?
I asked you "Will you tell me if my question is disrespectful?"
Your answer is " I will try to offer constructive feedback."
That's a dodge. it should be simple. if it's not simple... then I am concerned that I will never know and you will never tell me.
It's a concern. It's not like I think you're a dishonest person. I just figure, OK. this person ( aka you ) is leaving their options open and doesn't have enough respect for me as a human being to just give me a simple straight forward answer.
If that's not your style, goodbye. We never have to speak again. so be it.
But here's what I know about you, Adrain. You value interfaith dialogue. So I kinda figure you would meet me halfway on this. I'm taking a risk asking any questions at all at this point. I think the least you can do... like the very least... is to meet me halfway and let me know if my question turns out to be disrespectful. It's a small favor. a small favor which was declined.
Thoughts?
Here'a an example of a classic dodge:
Person1: "Hey dear, I made you some soup. It's a new recipe, will you tell me if it's too salty?"
Person2: "I'll tell you if I like it."
Do you see what happened here? Person1 is asking whether or not the soup is salty. Person2 declined to tell them that. Do you see that?
Taken at face value, will Person1 ever know if the soup is too salty? NO.
Why? because if all Person2 says is "I didn't like it." Does Person1 know whether or not the soup is too salty? NO.
Is any of this making sense?
I asked you "Will you tell me if my question is disrespectful?"
Your answer is " I will try to offer constructive feedback."
That's a dodge. it should be simple. if it's not simple... then I am concerned that I will never know and you will never tell me.
It's a concern. It's not like I think you're a dishonest person. I just figure, OK. this person ( aka you ) is leaving their options open and doesn't have enough respect for me as a human being to just give me a simple straight forward answer.
If that's not your style, goodbye. We never have to speak again. so be it.
But here's what I know about you, Adrain. You value interfaith dialogue. So I kinda figure you would meet me halfway on this. I'm taking a risk asking any questions at all at this point. I think the least you can do... like the very least... is to meet me halfway and let me know if my question turns out to be disrespectful. It's a small favor. a small favor which was declined.
Thoughts?
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
But what you don't know is I took the gunpowder out of the gun.
the trigger is harmless!
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Then why in the world didn't you say that in the first place? Ya should have just said, "No. daniel, I cannot tell you if your question is disrespectful, plain and simple."
That is an honest answer. And had you done that, we wouldn't be having this juvenile exchange.
Compare that with this:
"I will try to provide constructive feedback."
anyone reading this will see the difference.
Scroll back thru it adrain... I first asked very nicely if you would tell me if my question was disrespectful. You dodged. I had to ask the same question again. You dodged. Finally I explained that you were not answering my question. I showed you with an exmaple hwo i was interpreting your non-response. And after 3 tries. I finally got the answer to the question.
Seems to me I have every right to be frustrated right now with how much effort is needed to get the answer to a simple question. That's not "triggered" that's Human, Adrian. How in the world do you expect me to EVER ask a question again. Especially something complicated and/or nuanced.
Are you reading me? Are we communicating? Do you hear me?
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I personally see no reason to believe in it whatsoever. But that isn't the title of the thread. The thread simply asks if it is believable, and yes of course it is, because Baha'is believe in it.
That's most likely true, but I haven't interacted with you long enough to really tell. I have told you I can't get through those long quotes. Generally the questions I've asked would be answered simply by a yes or a no, perhaps a few sentences.It is not a pattern among all Baha'is. I answer all questions posted to me, often in great detail.
Also, merely stating you've answered a question doesn't mean you have. That onus is on the person who asked the question. That's happened to me a lot as well in these discussions. It's no more useful than some guy from Omaha claiming he's the mayor of Chicago. A person can say anything at all.
Fascinating, many thanks for this!
@Vinayaka would you happen to know of a good, accessible but still scholarly / professional English translation of the Tirukkural? (Preferably with commentary and footnotes, as well as suggestions for secondary studies on the text).
It sounds like a world classic of religious literature that I need to familiarise myself with.
I have read translations of portions of the Vedas, the Upanishads (my favourite being the Chandogya Upanishad - That art Thou, as one of those beautiful older English translations puts it), the Bhagavad Gita, a few of the Puranas etc.
I've also studied Sikh literature such as the Guru Granth Sahib and the Dasam Granth, along with large swathes of the Buddhist Pali Canon and parts of the Jain Agamas.
But I had never heard of the Tirukkal before. Having read up on it over the last hour, I'm amazed that such an important sacred text has escaped my notice until now in my past forays into ancient Indian literature.
Must be addressed!
This really piqued my interest:
Tirukkuṛaḷ - Wikipedia
Jesuit, Catholic and Protestant missionaries in colonial-era South India praised the text. The Protestant missionary Edward Jewitt Robinson said that the Kural contains all things and there is nothing which it does not contain.[142] The Anglican missionary John Lazarus said, "No Tamil work can ever approach the purity of the Kural. It is a standing repute to modern Tamil."[142] According to the American Christian missionary Emmons E. White, "Thirukkural is a synthesis of the best moral teachings of the world."[142] Rajaji commented, "It is the gospel of love and a code of soul-luminous life. The whole of human aspiration is epitomized in this immortal book, a book for all ages."[142]
I must admit, that's quite the book review!
If you perchance have a good translation, I'm putting it on the Christmas wishlist and will have a bash at reading it over the festive season, with some mulled wine and a mince pie.
This is the one I have. It's free on-line. Himalayan Academy Publications - Weaver's Wisdom
I'm biased as the translators are in my sampradaya, but I do know they studied several previous translations and either selected the wording they favored or made a composite of each verse. I use it often, and my Tamil friends have many quotes memorised.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I answer people on an individual basis, according to who they are and what I think they are asking. I am not sending you any quotes because you asked me not to.
If my answer did not answer the question someone asked me then they can tell me and I can answer it again. That's how that works.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Indeed. I think it's really wise to at least attempt to see folks as individuals. You're rare on these forums, in the Baha'i group, because of your gender.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Does that mean God is Baha or God is best?
wandering peacefully
Which way to the woods?
That is odd. I don't know why you would get an email notification of my posting.
Anyway thank you and @adrian009, @shunyadragon for your explanations of your views about this belief system. It certainly seems to be a large topic on these forums. One that doesn't seem very embraced or popular as a viable future solution to humanity's woes. I was just trying to get to the bottom of why that is. There are so many hundreds of these different belief systems out there it is interesting to find out why some are so advertised while others just go about their practices quietly without so much public fanfare. I think I understand from the comments of those of other faiths and non why Baha'i is seen in such a negative light. It must be difficult constantly trying to defend and promote such controversial ideas. I think any system which would try to propose everyone else to leave their own systems and beliefs to join such a movement in the future and under the pretense of it being new and improved over their own views is probably always going to be an uphill battle. There just aren't any great new ideas presented here which haven't been proposed before or are already in practice by others. It serms to be a fact that the basic tenets Baha'i of replacing "abrogated beliiefs" are insulting to others outside that system even if the Baha'i followers don't see it when the reasons are explained to them.
And thank you @Vouthon for the interesting and very informative history of these various ideas and proposals. I think this is the true meaning of independent investigation. One has to be willing to look at all available and reliable information with an open mind and when new previously unknown information becomes available to the investigators, they must be open to changing their previous held views. Otherwise it is useless to investigate anything if it is just ignored. Or worse, thought of as some type of attack on the subject at hand. Conformation bias and ignorance of history and facts is a definite obstacle to a truly progressive humanity. You have excellent writing skills and are a pleasure to read.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
OK. So, Jesus is required. Is he the son of God?
For orthodox Christians - whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant - he is considered to be the Son of God (Second Person of the Triune God, incarnate in human form, the Logos - all that jazz). So, yes, I regard him as being such.
I'm not entirely sure where this is heading....?