Is progressive revelation believable?

[shunyadragon]

As if his confirmation means anything to people other than Bahais.

As in confirmation means anything to people other than Hindus.

 

[shunyadragon]

Jews, Zoroastrians, Christians, Muslims, Ahmadiyyas, Hindus, Buddhists to not agree to your claim. They have messages which are sufficient for all ages. That is why they consider Bahaullah as a false prophet and an imposter.

So what?!?!?!?Jews, Zoroastrians, Christians, Muslims and others do not agree to your claim. They have messages which are sufficient for all ages. That is why they consider those that Hindus believe in are imposter, and their beliefs are false.

 

[shunyadragon]

Right. And you responded with:
View attachment 35177
"Firing blacks", not with "firing blanks".

I was not initially responding to you?!?!?!?!!?

 

[Earthtank]

Some people ask why is there multiple religions in the world, which God is true the christians God or the Islamic Allah?

But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive.

That Prophets / Messengers known as Manifestations of God has been sent in every age in human history and evolution to guide humanity in the right spiritual path, that the holy Bible and holy Qur'an was divine education that was suited for the time and age in which it was revealed in. And that we have a current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God, and current divine scriptures / education for this time and age that we live in right now.

Edit: I've noticed that some people is addressing the "truth is not absolute but relative" statement that I made. So let me put it this way: some truths are not absolute and some truths are relative. It depends what truths are being talked about.

Please correct me if i am wrong but, my understanding is that the Bahai faith takes from Islam (in some fashion). So, if that's true, then that will actually contradict the existence of the bahai faith since it clearly states in the Quran and numerous hadiths that Prophet Muhammad was the last and final Prophet and no other/more revelation is to come after him.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I was not initially responding to you?!?!?!?!!?

True, and there was no need to respond to me now. But are you going to correct your misspelled word or did you really mean to say "firing blacks"?

 

[shunyadragon]

True, and there was no need to respond to me now. But are you going to correct your misspelled word or did you really mean to say "firing blacks"?

Firing Blanks

 

[shunyadragon]

Please correct me if i am wrong but, my understanding is that the Bahai faith takes from Islam (in some fashion). So, if that's true, then that will actually contradict the existence of the bahai faith since it clearly states in the Quran and numerous hadiths that Prophet Muhammad was the last and final Prophet and no other/more revelation is to come after him.

No it does not clearly state that. First, it refers to the return of Jesus Christ, future Revelation. Second it is common if not universal for ancient religions to reject future Revelations base d on their interpretation of scriptures. The interpretation as to what is the Seal of the Prophets,' can have different interpretations.

 

[Terry Sampson]

@adrian009 et aliae:
Three comments:

• This, the first comment, is a criticism of this thread's OP.
  • When I first read the thread title and OP, I was clueless regarding "the meaning and significance" to the Baha'i of the terms "Manifestation of God" and "Progressive Revelation". Belatedly, I finally got around to reading the brief descriptions/definitions of each term in wikipedia. Both were very useful to me in shaping my understanding of each term and making some sense of the OP.
  • My criticism of this thread's title and OP is, IMO, that it would have been helpful to me to have had both explanations in the OP, given my early level of ignorance.
• This, my second comment, is not a criticism. It's a brief introduction to the concept of "Revelation" that I recently became aware of and which helps me to sort, classify, and make sense of the different uses of the term "Revelation".
  • Source: "Revelation and Authority" by Benjamin D. Sommer, a Conservative Jewish Professor at Jewish Theological Seminary, NY.
  • Two theories of revelation.
    • Participatory theory: "Throughout this book I use the terms “participatory theory of revelation”and “participatory theology” to speak of approaches to revelation that view the Pentateuch (and Jewish tradition generally) as the result of a dialogue between God and Israel. According to the participatory theology, the Pentateuch not only conveys God’s will but also reflects Israel’s interpretation of and response to that will. This view of revelation puts a premium on human agency and gives witness to the grandeur of a God who accomplishes a providential task through the free will of human subjects under God’s authority."
    • Stenographic theory: "We may contrast participatory theologies with a better-known view of revelation, which I term “the stenographic theoryof revelation.” According to the latter theory, God dictated all the words of the Pentateuch to Moses, and Moses recorded God’s words without altering them. In the stenographic theory, all the words of the Pentateuch are God’s. In the participatory theory, the wording in the Pentateuch is a joint effort involving heavenly and earthly contributions; or the wording may be an entirely human response to God’s real but nonverbal revelation. Especially in the second chapter of this book, I argue that the Pentateuch itself gives voice to both stenographic and participatory theologies of revelation."
  • IMO, anyone who believes that their Scriptures are the transcription of their god's own words will be "a fundamentalist" and take issue with variant translations from the language of the earliest copies of the Scripture. My impression is that the common Islamic view of the Qur'an is a stenographic viewpoint, and for that reason, authentic copies of the Qur'an will continue to be those written in Arabic and standard (i.e. invariant) throughout Islam.
  • Christian Scriptures have their stenographic proponents and their participatory proponents.
  • My unconfirmed suspicion is that the Baha'i tend to view their Baha'i scriptures as stenographic revelation, and more willing to view other religions' scriptures as participatory revelation.
• My third comment is not a direct criticism, but may be taken as criticism by defenders of faith communities. I have recently become acquainted with the term: "dual covenant theology", which, has direct applicability, IMO, to traditional Jews and me. According to dual-covenant theology, as I understand it, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is my God, through and because of my belief in Jesus, AND HaShem's covenant with the faithful descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob remains in effect forever; however, the covenant between HaShem and me is a covenanted mediated through Jesus with Gentiles, of whom I am one. My covenant with the Holy One does NOT replace, supersede, or diminish His covenant with the faithful descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, whom He brought out of Egypt and to whom He gave the Torah at Sinai.
  • Having said that, I am well aware of the fact that I hold a minority opinion which most definitely is not held by the majority of Christians and quite probably not too many traditional Jews.
  • Moreover, I suspect that it will eventually, sooner or later, become apparent that I believe that Islam and, yes, Baha'i to be human "replacement-oriented" faith communities.

 

[Earthtank]

No it does not clearly state that. First, it refers to the return of Jesus Christ, future Revelation. Second it is common if not universal for ancient religions to reject future Revelations base d on their interpretation of scriptures. The interpretation as to what is the Seal of the Prophets,' can have different interpretations.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

I imagine you are familiar with this verse.

In regards to your comment about the "Seal of the Prophets". Can you please illustrate an example when/where the word seal used in this specific context does not mean the last/final? Also, there a number of hadiths and tafsirs (the science of explanation of the Qur'an) that confirm Muhammad was and is the last Prophet and no revelation shall come after him.

Just to clarify my position, this is not meant to offend nor be argumentative, i am simply, genuinely asking this question for my own knowledge.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Please correct me if i am wrong but, my understanding is that the Bahai faith takes from Islam (in some fashion). So, if that's true, then that will actually contradict the existence of the bahai faith since it clearly states in the Quran and numerous hadiths that Prophet Muhammad was the last and final Prophet and no other/more revelation is to come after him.

The Baha’i Faith emerged from Islam as Christianity emerged from Judaism. Baha’is recognise Muhammad as a Messenger of God and the Holy Quran the authenticated repository of the Word of God. We also believe the twin Prophets of the Baha’i religion, like Muhammad were the bearers of a Divine Revelation. We believe the Quranic verse that refers to the Khatam an-Nabiyyan refers to the end of the Adamic cycle and that all Prophets are seals of the Prophets.

Islamic eschatology refers to a redeemer if Islam the Mahdi or the Promised Qa’im who comes along with the Return of Christ. Baha’is believe the Qa’im and Return of Christ to be the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh. Obviously many Muslims disagree and consider the Baha’i Faith an apostate religion. Many Christians also disagree with the claims of Muhammad, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh and consider all three to be false prophets.

 

[Earthtank]

Islamic eschatology refers to a redeemer if Islam the Mahdi or the Promised Qa’im who comes along with the Return of Christ. Baha’is believe the Qa’im and Return of Christ to be the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh. Obviously many Muslims disagree and consider the Baha’i Faith an apostate religion. Many Christians also disagree with the claims of Muhammad, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh and consider all three to be false prophets.

Quite the cluster f***

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009 et aliae:
Three comments:

• This, the first comment, is a criticism of this thread's OP.
  • When I first read the thread title and OP, I was clueless regarding "the meaning and significance" to the Baha'i of the terms "Manifestation of God" and "Progressive Revelation". Belatedly, I finally got around to reading the brief descriptions/definitions of each term in wikipedia. Both were very useful to me in shaping my understanding of each term and making some sense of the OP.
  • My criticism of this thread's title and OP is, IMO, that it would have been helpful to me to have had both explanations in the OP, given my early level of ignorance.

It would be useful for the author (@od19g6 ) to respond to your criticism. When we are talking about ‘Manifestation of God’ it is a very profound concept in its own right concerning the nature of those who would bear a Revelation from God. Christians discussed this in relation to Christ for nearly four centuries until the doctrine of the trinity was agreed upon. I am therefore comfortable the author completely avoided this topic as it would have distracted from the main theme, Progressive Revelation. Had it been an academic paper I completely agree some explanation would have been essential. However its an international discussion group for peoples of all backgrounds. Therefore a scholarly approach is not necessary and in some instances best avoided.

The term Progressive Revelation could arguably had more elaboration as its a little vague until considered in a more specific context. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all believe in progressive Revelation, but not as Baha’is believe it. There is the succession of Jewish Prophets after Moses. Christians add to the story with Christ and the apostles. Muslims add to it again and significantly alter the Christian narrative with the addition of Muhammad and the Quran.

The Baha’is emerge 1260 years later with the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh. We change and modify the Islamic narrative to include the Torah and Gospels in their current form and lean towards acceptance of the Sonship and Divinity of Christ. We add the Dharmic Faiths into the mix with emphasis on Hinduism and Buddhism, Krishna and Buddha. Hinduism has its own version of progressive Revelation with some schools of thought though would eschew the language of the Abrahamics whom many Hindus fundamentally disagree with.

Then we have progression within each religion and how understandings change as a religion evolves from having its first followers to shaping civilisation itself. Perhaps another question could be ‘What is the best way to understand progression both within religions and between religions?’

 

[shunyadragon]

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

I imagine you are familiar with this verse.

Are you not familiar with the verse referring to the Return of Jesus Christ?.

From: Second Coming - Wikipedia

In the Quran, the second coming of Jesus is heralded in Az-Zukhruf (the Quran's 43rd surah or chapter) as a sign of the Day of Judgment.

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. 43:61[44]

In his famous interpretation of the Quran or Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Azim, Ibn Kathir also uses this verse as proof of Jesus' second coming in the Quran. [45]

There are also hadiths that clearly foretell of Jesus' future return such as:[46] Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 43: Kitab-ul-`Ilm (Book of Knowledge), Hâdith Number 656:

The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross (idol symbol of Christians), kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

In regards to your comment about the "Seal of the Prophets". Can you please illustrate an example when/where the word seal used in this specific context does not mean the last/final? Also, there a number of hadiths and tafsirs (the science of explanation of the Qur'an) that confirm Muhammad was and is the last Prophet and no revelation shall come after him.

Just to clarify my position, this is not meant to offend nor be argumentative, i am simply, genuinely asking this question for my own knowledge.

A seal can mean the mark of authority and genuineness of a message sealed as in the traditional use of the wax seal.on correspondence. The ring used in the seal is also a symbol of authority.

 

[shunyadragon]

• The nine most important people in my life, eight are dead; my wife remains with me. Of the eight, all believed in (i.e. trusted in) Jesus' promises, and none of the nine were/are biologically related to me.

The nine most important to me come from the diverse religious backgrounds throughout history, Including Gandhi, Lao Tzu, and Confucius, Louis Gregory, and Abdu'l Baha.

 

[paarsurrey]

Wrong please? Your aggressive antagonism toward the Baha'i Faith is fully apparent. You realize that the Jews and Christians reject the Revelation of Muhammad have no word of Revelation.

Your acrid sarcasm is dully noted. There is no office of "Prophets/Messengers of G-d."

"office"

"a position of authority or service, typically one of a public nature.", please.

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

"office"

"a position of authority or service, typically one of a public nature.", please.

Regards

It remains a claim from your belief for the "office" "a position of authority or service, typically one of a public nature." that Jews and Christians reject.

 

[paarsurrey]

It remains a claim from your belief for the "office" "a position of authority or service, typically one of a public nature." that Jews and Christians reject.

Friend!
The Jews and Christians are here, they may give their argument directly to me, please?

Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

Of course religions evolve and progress as they go from their earliest days with their first followers to a stage where they have followers that make up the majority of peoples throughout many lands and have a profound influence on culture at levels of society and contribute to an ever advancing civilisation. We can see this by considering the Islamic Golden Age and the proliferation of advancements in the sciences and arts. It was apparent through Eastern Orthodox Christianity that arose from the Byzantium Empire and Western Civilisation through the renaissance and beyond. There will be similar narratives for both Hinduism and Buddhism.

A useful document to consider Baha'u'llah's Revelation viewed from a twenty first century lens is 'One Common Faith' commissioned by the Baha'i World Centre.

Religion, thus conceived, awakens the soul to potentialities that are otherwise unimaginable. To the extent that an individual learns to benefit from the influence of the revelation of God for his age, his nature becomes progressively imbued with the attributes of the Divine world: "Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth", Bahá'u'lláh explains, "every man will advance and develop until he ... can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed." As humanity's purpose includes the carrying forward of "an ever-advancing civilization",not the least of the extraordinary powers that religion possesses has been its ability to free those who believe from the limitations of time itself, eliciting from them sacrifices on behalf of generations centuries into the future. Indeed, because the soul is immortal, its awakening to its true nature empowers it, not only in this world but even more directly in those worlds that lie beyond, to serve the evolutionary process: "The light which these souls radiate", Bahá'u'lláh asserts, "is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples.... All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being."

One Common Faith

I just bring it up, because some Baha'is point out that a new messenger comes with a new message, because the old messenger's religion has reached the end of its usefulness. Some use the seasons of the year to say those old religions had their spring and summer and are now in their autumn and winter. But most all the major religions get fresh life and revive themselves. They are far from being down for the count. Unfortunately, some Baha'is make it sound like there is nothing useful left in any of the older religions... that it's time to jump on the Baha'i train and ride it into a new age.

 

[paarsurrey]

I just bring it up, because some Baha'is point out that a new messenger comes with a new message, because the old messenger's religion has reached the end of its usefulness. Some use the seasons of the year to say those old religions had their spring and summer and are now in their autumn and winter. But most all the major religions get fresh life and revive themselves. They are far from being down for the count. Unfortunately, some Baha'is make it sound like there is nothing useful left in any of the older religions... that it's time to jump on the Baha'i train and ride it into a new age.

I agree with one.

Muhammad was Khatam-an-Nabiyyeen, the title conferred on him by G-d in Direct Converse, meaning the last one with the Book of Religious Systems/Sharia. Messengers/Prophets could come with Quran as Sharia.

But to send Messengers/Prophets is the sole discretion of G-d who never had, I understand, any Direct Converse with Bahaullah.
If yes, then the Bahaism people could quote from Iqan the verse/verses in this connection. And Bahaullah, I understand, never claimed it in Iqan, whom Bahaullah was afraid of? The Bahaism people , please, tell us.
Am I right, please?

Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

• This, my second comment, is not a criticism. It's a brief introduction to the concept of "Revelation" that I recently became aware of and which helps me to sort, classify, and make sense of the different uses of the term "Revelation".
  • Source: "Revelation and Authority" by Benjamin D. Sommer, a Conservative Jewish Professor at Jewish Theological Seminary, NY.
  • Two theories of revelation.
    • Participatory theory: "Throughout this book I use the terms “participatory theory of revelation”and “participatory theology” to speak of approaches to revelation that view the Pentateuch (and Jewish tradition generally) as the result of a dialogue between God and Israel. According to the participatory theology, the Pentateuch not only conveys God’s will but also reflects Israel’s interpretation of and response to that will. This view of revelation puts a premium on human agency and gives witness to the grandeur of a God who accomplishes a providential task through the free will of human subjects under God’s authority."
    • Stenographic theory: "We may contrast participatory theologies with a better-known view of revelation, which I term “the stenographic theoryof revelation.” According to the latter theory, God dictated all the words of the Pentateuch to Moses, and Moses recorded God’s words without altering them. In the stenographic theory, all the words of the Pentateuch are God’s. In the participatory theory, the wording in the Pentateuch is a joint effort involving heavenly and earthly contributions; or the wording may be an entirely human response to God’s real but nonverbal revelation. Especially in the second chapter of this book, I argue that the Pentateuch itself gives voice to both stenographic and participatory theologies of revelation."
  • IMO, anyone who believes that their Scriptures are the transcription of their god's own words will be "a fundamentalist" and take issue with variant translations from the language of the earliest copies of the Scripture. My impression is that the common Islamic view of the Qur'an is a stenographic viewpoint, and for that reason, authentic copies of the Qur'an will continue to be those written in Arabic and standard (i.e. invariant) throughout Islam.
  • Christian Scriptures have their stenographic proponents and their participatory proponents.
  • My unconfirmed suspicion is that the Baha'i tend to view their Baha'i scriptures as stenographic revelation, and more willing to view other religions' scriptures as participatory revelation.

This is a vast topic that requires a great deal of prayer, reflection and study.

The exposition of Sommer’s theology has merit.

A Torah of Participatory Revelation in Context - TheTorah.com

For a thorough analysis of what Bahá’u’lláh has to say about the nature and of Divine Revelation I would commend the works of Adib Taherzadeh and include a link to the first in a series of four books titled ‘The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh’.

https://bahai-library.com/rev_bahaullah_1/taherzadeh_revelation_bahaullah_1.txt

I would recommend the third chapter titled ‘The Word of God’. Its about 20 pages long but provides a well considered narrative as to nature of Divine Revelation from a Baha’i perspective.