Is progressive revelation believable?

[dybmh]

IT as in Information Technology? I work in a closely allied field. I have my own forte and I am the odd woman out in my workplace. Nobody has a clue about what I do.

Yes, I'm in Information Technology... are you in Telecom?

 

[Trailblazer]

I think your belief can be improved upon to be more consistent with reality, by slightly altering it:

I believe it is because their religions teach that it is the only true religion so they cannot accept progressive revelation.​

Yes, that is more concise.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am on the record, here on RF consistently saying precisely that.

If I have ever implied "my way or the highway", I certainly apologize. That is not ever my intention.

No, you never implied that.
that is one thing I like about your views.

 

[od19g6]

The point of this forum is religious discussion and debate. If you start a thread saying, "Bob is a Prophet of God," people are very obviously going to ask you what the heck your evidence for that claim is. If you're not interested in making such a demonstration, then at least don't post in the Debates section. Stick to the Baha'i DIR section so you can just talk about your beliefs with people who already agree with you.



Yes, what about his life, exactly? I already addressed why you can't point to his teachings, as that would be circular.



Wait, they display all the attributes of God, perfectly? This is the typical Abrahamic, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God, yes? I'd love to see the evidence that Baha'u'llah was any one of those, let alone all three. And isn't God eternal? But Baha'u'llah died, didn't he?



I highlighted the key section of the passage here. So Prophets don't necessarily display all God's attributes - but we're supposed to believe they have them, even if they show no evidence of it.

So which of God's attributes did Baha'u'llah display, and how so, specifically?



The teaching that we are "spiritual beings" is also a claim. So yes, again, his teachings are claims.



Waaaaaaayyyyy too long and too many rabbit trails to delve into all that. Hit me with your best prophecy, and I'm happy to discuss it.

You know, I think what you're really asking me is, what is Baha'u'llah's biography.

It would be unrealistic of me to try and write Baha'u'llah's whole biography on this forum, that would be "waaaaaaayyyyy too long".

I can give you an introduction biography of Baha'u'llah: Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

The Life of Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

But you're going to have to take it from there if you want to. Like I said Baha'u'llah's biography is actually kind of huge.

The reason why I personally recognize Baha'u'llah is because of His teachings of progressive revelation and planetary unity. Other Baha'is may have different reasons for recognizing Baha'u'llah.

I really don't want to go around in circles here, what kind of evidence / demonstration of Prophethood are you looking for exactly, because I literally keep telling you.

And to be honest with you, a believer really don't have to know every single thing about the revelation of God to recognize His Manifestation, they can just know the basics so to speak.

Say for instance do you have to be a technician to know the basics and enjoy your gadgets and devices?

So when you say the word "demonstration" what are you really looking for?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I'm in Information Technology... are you in Telecom?

No, GIS Cartographer.
The IT guys are our friends.

 

[dybmh]

No, GIS Cartographer.
The IT guys are our friends.

Awesome... literally... that is BIG data.

 

[Left Coast]

I think that when my spouse says he loves me.
And when someone says the universe came from nothing and for no reason whatsoever
And when people say there is no God.
And that my country is the best one to live in.

I agree. Thankfully I don't assert any of those things.

 

[Trailblazer]

Awesome... literally... that is BIG data.

It's pretty cool...
I am responsible for mapping all the Tax Code Areas.

 

[Vouthon]

@adrian009 a little more on marriage:

Life in the Middle Ages: Medieval Divorce

In Roman and early medieval law, one could get out of a marriage if one's spouse dabbled in forbidden magic or was a despoiler of tombs. A man could also divorce his wife for adultery...

By the ninth century, churchmen had decided that marriage, as a quasi-sacrament (it did not become an official sacrament until the thirteenth century), ought to be permanent, insoluble. The sacramental aspect of marriage was the oaths, swearing on all that was holy to stay together "till death do us part." You don't just change your mind about an oath like that.
​

Marriage wasn't declared a sacrament until the 12th century and its then (1,200 years into Christianity) that you see divorce entirely supersceded by annulment in law in Western countries, as marriage becomes "religious" (one of the seven sacraments of sanctifying grace) rather than a contract dealt with by the state.

It thus became part of "faith" in the "faith and good works" equation, as it remains today. But this is not contingent on the secular law - the obligation to stay married binds Catholics morally irrespective of what's on the statutebook. Its not a matter of law but faith binding conscience, in this respect (i.e. the state can permit divorce just like it did for the first thousand years in the West).

 

[Left Coast]

You know, I think what you're really asking me is, what is Baha'u'llah's biography.

It would be unrealistic of me to try and write Baha'u'llah's whole biography on this forum, that would be "waaaaaaayyyyy too long".

I can give you an introduction biography of Baha'u'llah: Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

The Life of Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

But you're going to have to take it from there if you want to. Like I said Baha'u'llah's biography is actually kind of huge.

Again, pick one thing from Baha'u'llah's life, the most convincing thing to you about his life that shows he's a prophet. Then we can discuss the specifics of it. Because you're right, if I read the detailed biography of every guy that everyone has ever claimed has some special connection to the divine, that's all I'd ever do.

The reason why I personally recognize Baha'u'llah is because of His teachings of progressive revelation and planetary unity. Other Baha'is may have different reasons for recognizing Baha'u'llah.

Interesting, so how do you know those teachings are true, and even if they are, how does that show he's a prophet? People say things that are true all the time, that doesn't indicate they're prophets.

I really don't want to go around in circles here, what kind of evidence / demonstration of Prophethood are you looking for exactly, because I literally keep telling you.

No, you don't. You keep talking in generalities. His life, his teachings - great, which part(s) of his life, which teachings? And how do they show he's a prophet?

And to be honest with you, a believer really don't have to know every single thing about the revelation of God to recognize His Manifestation, they can just know the basics so to speak.

Which is why I tried to simplify it. Let's narrow the discussion down to one thing, and talk through it. One prophecy, one aspect of Baha'u'llah's life, whatever you think is most convincing.

So when you say the word "demonstration" what are you really looking for?

I mean demonstration in the ordinary sense of showing that a claim is true.

If I say I have a million dollars, how do I demonstrate that? Well, I could show you the actual paper money, or I could show you my bank balance...maybe there are other ways?

If I say I can type 100 words per minute, I can demonstrate that by timing myself in front of you as I type.

A prophet is someone who speaks on behalf of a deity, correct? So you tell me, how would a person demonstrate that they actually speak on behalf of a supernatural being?

 

[od19g6]

And we need the Baha'u'llah to tell us that? Or we're supposed to believe that the Baha'ullah is the physical manifestation of a divine revelation just because he said that humans are one family and earth is our home? You're gonna have to give me something better than that to keep me interested. How about this: Was Baha'u'llah an Einsteinian Relativist or an Anti-relativist?

"And we need the Baha'u'llah to tell us that"?

Apparently we do.

We still have racism, war, pollution, separation of city, state and countries.

I would think that it would be good if a Manifestation of God have to let us know that the human species is one family.

 

[sun rise]

What did Meher Baba teach humanity in this time and age?

He said he had not come to teach but to awaken. From one of his messages:

Man's inability to live God's words makes the Avatar's teaching a mockery. Instead of practicing the compassion he taught, man has waged crusades in his name. Instead of living the humility, purity and truth of his words, man has given way to hatred, greed and violence... You have asked for and been given enough words — it is now time to live them.

 

[sealchan]

Some people ask why is there multiple religions in the world, which God is true the christians God or the Islamic Allah?

But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive, that truth is not absolute but relative.

That Prophets / Messengers known as Manifestations of God has been sent in every age in human history and evolution to guide humanity in the right spiritual path, that the holy Bible and holy Qur'an was divine education that was suited for the time and age in which it was revealed in. And that we have a current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God, and current divine scriptures / education for this time and age that we live in right now.

What if how we understand God was, of necessity, highly dependent on who we are individually?

 

[od19g6]

What if how we understand God was, of necessity, highly dependent on who we are individually?

Baha'u'llah does say that the human being has the potential to display all the names and attributes of God at the highest level, so if you want to know God the best thing to do is to know the human being.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Some people ask why is there multiple religions in the world, which God is true the christians God or the Islamic Allah?

But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive, that truth is not absolute but relative.

That Prophets / Messengers known as Manifestations of God has been sent in every age in human history and evolution to guide humanity in the right spiritual path, that the holy Bible and holy Qur'an was divine education that was suited for the time and age in which it was revealed in. And that we have a current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God, and current divine scriptures / education for this time and age that we live in right now.

I think it is important to understand that, not everyone fits the same glove so to speak. So even I don't doubt that the Baha'u'llah hold the truth for those who follow him, as others have said, you will find that many people will disagree with your OP, But that is natural. they want to protect their own beliefs and understanding of their religion or worldview.
But one thing I do agree with you on is that each time of human history do have an enlighten master of some sort, who will be teaching a true path toward some kind of enlightenment or salvation.

 

[od19g6]

I think it is important to understand that, not everyone fits the same glove so to speak. So even I don't doubt that the Baha'u'llah hold the truth for those who follow him, as others have said, you will find that many people will disagree with your OP, But that is natural. they want to protect their own beliefs and understanding of their religion or worldview.
But one thing I do agree with you on is that each time of human history do have an enlighten master of some sort, who will be teaching a true path toward some kind of enlightenment or salvation.

"they want to protect their own beliefs and understanding of their religion or worldview".

That's basically tribalism which is the problem that the world have right now.

We have to learn to find truths where ever they are.

 

[Spirit of Light]

"they want to protect their own beliefs and understanding of their religion or worldview".

That's basically tribalism which is the problem that the world have right now.

We have to learn to find truths where ever they are.

Well, truth is everywhere yes. But when we have a teacher or master we cultivate their teaching so we become the teaching our self. so where i maybe disagree with Baha`i teaching is to take form anything that fit us and try to fit it in to a belief. because if we take something from Buddha Sakyamuni, a little bit from Muhammad, a little from Jesus. and we try to mix this together. we will experience that even they all were speaking truth and was teaching a true path. it was on different levels of wisdom. so as a follower it will be difficult to grasp the very highest truth if two masters say something that sounds to not fit together. But when we look at it separately we can see that yes both speak the truth. but one spoke from a higher level of wisdom, and then the other master will not be able to see that same truth.

So to gain a higher level of wisdom ourselves self we would be better off by following only one master at the time.
You do not need to agree with what I say, I understand you see Baha'u'llah as the main teacher and then you should continue to do so, i don't try to convince you of other

 

[Trailblazer]

Is progressive revelation believable?

Maybe an even better question is -- Is it believable that God would speak once for all time and never speak again?
Is it logical that God would speak through one Prophet and establish one religion that would be the only true religion for all time?

What kind of God would favor one Prophet and one religion over all the others?
No God that I would ever believe in, and that is why I could never be any religion other than Baha'i.

 

[danieldemol]

Some people ask why is there multiple religions in the world, which God is true the christians God or the Islamic Allah?

But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive, that truth is not absolute but relative.

That Prophets / Messengers known as Manifestations of God has been sent in every age in human history and evolution to guide humanity in the right spiritual path, that the holy Bible and holy Qur'an was divine education that was suited for the time and age in which it was revealed in. And that we have a current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God, and current divine scriptures / education for this time and age that we live in right now.

I think I believe more in progressive inspiration than revelation. God continuously inspires humans with truth in accordance with their capacity.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, that is exactly what I was thinking too...

The Torah says, "No intermediaries between people and God" ( This is in the 10 commandments )
The New Testament says "Jesus is the intermediary/gate" (John 4:16 and others I think )
The Qur'an returns back to what The Torah says, "No intermediaries between people and God." ( clearly defined in the Qur'an as Shirk, i think )

That's not progressive, that's regressive: No intermediary >>> Intermediary >>> No Intermediary. Perhaps The Torah stands alone, and is not part of the progression? If so, then taking the Torah out of the chain of revelation seems to make it progressive again. It would just be: Intermediary >>> No Intermediary. That seems like progress to me. But going back and forth from "No intermediary" to "Intermediary" then back again to "No Intermediary"... that's not progressive. Not if the Torah is included.

The same could be said of Jesus's revelation. It seems to me that "progressive" is a good description if Jesus's revelation is not part of the chain. That's an option , too, IMHO, if the revelation is to be understood as "progress". But as long as Jesus's revelation is in the middle, It just doesn't seem progressive to me. Something in the chain, either Jesus' revelation, or the Torah, does not fit into the model of "progressive revelation" as I am imagining it.

But that's just a guess. It's just how I picture it in my head. I'm not trying to be difficult.

I wouldn’t think in terms of a linear progression where we go sequentially Judaism, Christianity, Islam and then the Baha’i Faith (technically Bábism beforehand). It would be correct to consider a progressive from Judaism to Christianity as it would to see Islam progressing to the Baha’i Faith. When a sect of Judaism called the Nazarenes followed Christ, those Jews and their ancestors had 1,500 years experience of Mosaic law. The early Baha’is (Babis) were Shi’a Muslims whose ancestors had been following Islam for over 1,100 years.

Those who followed Muhammad had no such history. Muhammad’s ancestors were pagans who worshipped many gods. They were a nomadic tribal people whose savagery was renowned. The emphasis was on moving from polytheism and idolatry to monotheism and a means of worship acceptable to the God of Abraham. So there was a similar emphasis in the Quran as there was in the Torah. It raises questions though. Why did God choose to reveal Himself to such a people at this time? Why didn’t he get those tribes to follow Judaism or Christianity rather than bring about an entirely new Revelation?