Is progressive revelation believable?

[od19g6]

One of them ever do. Prophesy is interpretation, not fact.

Only when the new Manifestation is sent does He has the authority to officially interpret the revelation of old.

 

[CG Didymus]

The greatest gift of this age is to know through one's own search.

And who has done such a thorough research as to know for sure that their choice of a religion is right? People learn more. They find reasons to doubt their new religion. Or, they find that in trying to put it into practice, it doesn't really work for them, ad they go on searching.

And it happens with Baha'is too. Some think it is the right religion and then later drop out. What did they learn that would cause such a thing? It happens to Scientologists, to JW's, to Christians to all people in all religions. What they thought was true at one time, changed. But, I do believe that when they were believing in those religions, it was working perfectly fine for them. And, since some religions are considered false by other people in other religions, then even those "false" ones can bring about what seems like positive change in people.

Oh, and speaking of false... some religions think that Fundamentalist Christians have taken things way over board. They can go to the extreme in believing the Bible literally. Young Earth, 6 day Creation, a world-wide Flood, a prophet carried off on a fiery chariot, another prophet swallowed by a big fish... but they are also taught to love one another and forgive each other. So a religion can be filled with all sorts of beliefs that other people would see as not real, but the religion still works for those believers. It makes them better people... in a way... until they get around people that don't believe like them and then those Fundies try and convince them how real all those Bible stories are and how they need Jesus... and then tell them how false their religion is. And usually, the Fundy will point out how silly and irrational those other people's beliefs are.

 

[shunyadragon]

For these small changes he sent Zoroaster, Mose, Jesus, Joseph Smith, Bahaullah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and many more; and they created different religions which have kept fighting each other in all history! Did not he know that these things will happen whenever he sends a new prophet\son\messenger\manifestation\Mahdi. Is he off his rocker!

Progressive Revelation is set in the nature of the evolving human nature in a positive direction. You are taking a negative perspective based on your own cultural perspective of 'belief.'

That is a big if. Indian religions are always universal in nature. A belief in one God is limited to the Abrahamic cultures. In Hinduism you can have a thousand Gods and Goddesses, three male and one female, a single one or even none. We do not have any fetters about Gods and Goddesses.

This is false, because Indian religions like all religions of the world are anchored in the vedic culture. Actually other religions claim to be universal like Christianity and Islam, but in reality they are no more universal than any of the Indian religions.

 

[shunyadragon]

Hmm, what you say here reminds me of the appraisal of Muhammad's ministry that Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 – 1464) wrote for Pope Pius II in his 15th century study, Cribatio Alkorani (Sifting the Qur'an) in three volumes.

At the time, Cardinal Nicholas was the most powerful office-holder in the Roman church after the Pontiff himself and in his role as vicar-general in the Papal States (equivalent to our modern day Prime Minister under a monarch), he was tasked with overseeing the diplomatic relations of the Papacy with the new Ottoman caliphate that had been established in Constantinople after its fall in 1453.

The pope wasn't sure how to respond to the new Islamic regime (he obviously had little knowledge of the 'Arab religion') that had replaced the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire and so tasked Cardinal Cusa with undertaking a comprehensive study of the Qur'an in Latin translation, and then provide His Holiness with the brief so that he could inform himself about Islam in his discussions with the Caliph (as detailed knowledge of Islam was, at this time, lacking in Europe).

In the opening prologue, addressed in the form of a letter "to Pius II, supreme and most holy pontiff of the Universal Christian Church", Cardinal Cusa wrote the following (see the underlined in particular):


A SCRUTINY OF THE KORAN

As best I could, I made a careful attempt to understand the book-of-law of the Arabs—[a book] which I obtained at Basel in the trans-lation commissioned for us by Peter, Abbot of Cluny. [I obtained it] together with a debate among those noble Arabs, [wherein] one of them, a follower of Muhammad, attempted to win over another of them. There were also [contained therein] certain other works on the origins of Muhammad, his twelve successors in the king-dom, and on his Doctrinae ad centum questiones. I left the book with Master John of Segovia 4 and journeyed to Constantinople, where among the Minorites who were living at [the Church of ] the Holy Cross, I found the Koran in Arabic [...]

Now, since there can be many ways that seem to be good, there remains doubt about which is the true and perfect way that leads us assuredly unto a knowledge of the Good (a Good which, indeed, we call God) in order that when we discourse about it we may understand one another. To be sure, Moses described a way; but it is not accepted or understood by everyone. Christ illumined and perfected this way, though many remain who are still unbelieving. Muhammad attempted to describe this same way as quite easy, so that it might be accepted by all, even by idolaters.

These are the most renown descriptions of the aforementioned way, although many other [descriptions] have been made by wise men and prophets. But all the aforesaid descriptions hold as their basis the view that that oft-mentioned Good is maximal and, thus, is one; and this One all call God...

But Jesus, the son of the Virgin Mary and the Christ who was fore-told by Moses and the Prophets to be coming, did come and did re-veal most perfectly—according to the testimony even of Muhammad the oft-mentioned way [...]

Moreover, if some-one had asked Muhammad in what form God would have sent to men an envoy who was someone greater than an angel, then Muhammad would certainly have answered [that] if God were to send to men an angel as an envoy, He would indue him with human form.

And [Muhammad] would reply similarly if [God] were to send someone greater than an angel. Now, according to Muhammad [God] sent Christ, whom [Muhammad] declares to be the Word of God and the son of Mary. Therefore, since the Word of God is of the same nature as God, whose Word He is (for all the things of God are God on ac-count of His most simple nature), then when God willed to send a supreme envoy, He sent His Word, than whom no greater envoy can be conceived. And because He sent [Him] to men, He willed for Him to put on a most clean human nature. And [Jesus] did so in the Virgin Mary, as is often found written in the Koran.

​

A SCRUTINY OF THE KORAN

The goal and intent of the book of the Koran is not only not to detract from God the Creator or from Christ or from God’s prophets and envoys or from the divine books of the Testament, the Psalter, and the Gospel, but also to give glory to God the Creator, to praise and to bear witness to Christ (the son of the Virgin Mary) above all the prophets, and to confirm and to approve of the Testament and the Gospel. [If so,] then when one reads the Koran with this understanding,47 assuredly some fruit can be elicited [from it]...​

If Muhammad had simply preached the Gospel to these Arabs and had not given them their own law, they would not have come to the Christian law, which they rejected for almost six hundred years.

Therefore, he preached to them that they were Ismaelites and had descended from Abraham and that both Jews and Christians praised the man [Abraham] as a prophet and approved of his faith— through which faith he obtained from God the greatest things both here below and in the other world.

And [Muhammad preached that] since this [praising and approving] was done by the Gentiles, who after following Abraham in the rejection of idols favored a certain law (whether the law of Moses or the law of Christ), then a fortiori the Arabs, who were descended from Abraham, ought themselves to do [this. Moreover, Muhammad preached] that God had chosen him as His messenger unto them and that God commanded them to accept the faith and the law of Abraham, a most excellent man, who was a believer and who was neither a Jew nor a Christian, having preceded both the Jews and the Christians. Having rejected idols, Abraham turned toward the Creator of the universe and worshiped and obeyed Him, as did also his descendants Isaac, Jacob, and the twelve tribes of Israel.

In the foregoing way [Muhammad] frequently taught the abandonment of idolatry, which, previously, [the Arabs] were never concerned to abandon as a result of the Gospel. [They were unconcerned] especially because evangelical perfection seemed to them to be onerous and to be such that their parents were afraid to accept it. For their parents had been taught (as even the Koran contains) that those who accept Christianity and do not keep its commandments offend against God more than do all [others] and that they will be tormented very grievously in Hell.

Therefore, Muhammad hid from the Arabs the secrets of the Gospel, believing that in the future [these secrets] could become known by the wise—just as in its beginning period the Gospel, too, remained obscure and unknown to many but was made progressively more evident. And if this [procedure] had not been expedient, then Christ would not have spoken to the people in parables....

The faith of the Gospel was despised everywhere by the idolatrous Orientals. The law of the Arabs came as someone unwilling to consent unto the faith [of the Gospel,] and it led the Arabs unto the worship of one God; nevertheless, the Gospel was secretly approved [by the Koran]"​

A 'little' too long a post to effectively respond to, and too aggressively the perspective of the Roman Church, severely neglecting the weaknesses of the Roman Church, which suffers from the same problems you accuse others. I may respond more after I chew on it a while. I had to <snip> to respond.

 

[Trailblazer]

LIDAR?

No, I work in ArcMap which is part of ArcGIS.

 

[Vouthon]

A 'little' too long a post to effectively respond to, and too aggressively the perspective of the Roman Church, severely neglecting the weaknesses of the Roman Church, which suffers from the same problems you accuse others. I may respond more after I chew on it a while. I had to <snip> to respond.

@shunyadragon this text was written in the 15th century, nearly 600 years ago. He didn't have the benefit of modern scholarship or impartiality.

The fact that a 15th century, pre-Reformation Cardinal was willing to engage with the Qur'an at all - in an era where Christians and Muslims were in places slaughtering each other on the battlefield - even in spite of all the obvious prejudices he brings to the exegesis (and which can't be helped given the cultural conditioning of the time period), is what's important.

He went further than most Christians have until the 20th century, in actually opening a dialogue between the Sultan and Pope Pius II.

Rest assured, I wasn't accusing anyone of anything and cannot understand why my quotation from a late medieval text would be construed as such.

 

[dybmh]

No, I work in ArcMap which is part of ArcGIS.

That sounds fun, I think I would have liked GIS.

 

[shunyadragon]

Super thought provoking... Shunyadragon, thank you for this.

"A very good example is the nature of the religion of Judaism, which represents a strong tribal and cultural identity, and not a strong God centered belief."

My vote: there is a very very strong God centered belief in Judaism. But maybe it's not something that is obvious? I don't know. If you need evidence of this God centered belief, look at the then entire mythos surrounding the divine names. Also from a cultural perspective. But you'd need to be in the culture, among "Torah Observant Jews" in order to know what I'm talking about. I'll try and offer some examples... but, just being honest, I don't know if you'll believe me.

If you were to spend time in a Torah Observant community, there is no doubt, God is central. Often a letter or flyer, brochure, pamphlet... anything that is written... there will be 2 little letters at the top. B"H. That means Baruch HaShem. And guess what? It's the first thing at the top of the page on many ( like I said ) letters, flyers, brochures, pamphlets, etc... Baruch HaShem is easiest understood as "Thank G-d." So Torah Observant Jews do not want to write anything without Thanking G-d first.

Example: "I'm worried about failing my math test, Ha'as V'Shalom".

These phrases are literally spoken all the time. Not to mention that anytime someone asks "How are you" "How are your kids" or anything asking about anyone's well fare, the answer is often "Baruch HaShem" both in the positive and in the negative. The only difference is in inflection. A person Thanks G-d for good, just as much as a person Thanks G-d for the not so good. There's a cute story about this... maybe it's just a joke... but essentially the joke is that a Rabbi was returning from a trip, takes a Taxi home, and strikes up a conversation with the Taxi driver. The entire conversation is the Rabbi asking the Taxi driver about his life, and the Taxi driver always relies the same way, "Baruch HaShem ( with a happy tone in their voice )" "Baruch HaShem ( with a more pensive/unsure tone in their voice )" or "Baruch HaShem ( with a more disappointed tone in their voice ).

It goes something like this:

Rabbi: "Chayim, I haven't seen you in ages How Are You?"

Chayim: "Baruch HaShem. "

Rabbi: "Oh dear, Everything OK at work?"

Chayim: "Baruch HaShem"

Rabbi: "You're not sick or anything, Ha'as V'shalom"

Chayim: "Baruch HaShem"

Rabbi: "Your wife and family?"

Chayim: "Baruch HaShem"

etc....

Now.... this is an extreme example, it's a joke. And full disclosure, my exposure and experience in and among Torah Observant Jews is limited to a specific group of Haredim. And the segment of my family which are Modern American Orthodox Jews. So, YMMV. It would probably be weird for me to start answering Baruch HaShem to every question asked. But the words "Thank G-d" "G-d willing" "G-d forbid" are all still quite common even among my Modern Orthodox family members.

Same thing with the expression "Ha'As V'Shalom". Which roughly translates to "G-d Forbid". Any time anything is mentioned out-loud which could be perceived as a negative outcome, the word's Ha'as V'Shalom are appended to the end of the sentence.

First the Torah Observant Community is not truly representative of Judaism in general.

Yes, Torah Observant Jews, do likely have a strong, but nonetheless the common use of God in conversation and salutations is a cultural manifestation in ALL Abrahamic religions and does not entail a strong belief in God

You may not believe any of this... and if you don't... I don't blame you.

And then there's the stories of great Tzaddikim ( Righteous / Pious people ). And the stories of the great sages... and all the wonderful funny and light-hearted jokes and stories. All of these have G-d as central in Judaism. All of it. If you want. I'll go through my collection of stories of Tzaddikim. I can try to find a few examples for you. But you should know... these books I'd be looking in, they're children's books. Bedtime stories, and such.. This is how "Torah Observant Jews" raise their kids. They don't read them Harry Potter. They read them stories of great, pious, righteous, G-d Fearing, G-d Loving folk. Sometimes the stories have a wise Rabbi as the protagonsit. Sometimes the hero of the story is a Fool. But always.... Always.... G-d is central.

I could continue to come up with examples that come from the culture. From the language, from the art, stories, etc.... This is called Minhagim. The Customs. And you should know that among Haredi ( at least the ones I know ) Minhag is just as important as Halacha. And the Minhag is overflowing with expressions of G-d's central position in Judaism.

So, I can tell you, from experience, that G-d is 100% central in Judaism. But only a small subset of Jewish people practice Judaism this way today. I'm not sure how you want to approach that fact. In my opinion, I like to imagine that the my friends who are Haredi represent an authentic version of Judaism which has not changed much over the last 5000+ years. Is that foolish, childish, optimism? Maybe... But these are closed communities that reject assimilation.

Your discussion so far represents only your observations of the Torah Observant communities, and not Judaism. Your figure of 100% is unbelievably naive and optimistic,

[quote[ You asked: "Question: How many Jews actually believe that the Tanakh reflects an actually history of the Hebrews, and nature of God?"

Today? Very very few. That's really all you or anyone can say for sure. Right? But that in no way means that Jewish Theology is lacking a "strong G-d Centered belief" as you put it. That's baloney. I'm sorry. Don't be confused by the way most Jewish people **practice** Judaism. Jewish Theology and Culture has a strong central belief in G-d. It's just not apparent from the outside.[/QUOTE]

What you have described above indeed reflects the problem that Judaism is strongly still a tribal cultural religion, and does not remotely reflect any universal view of God and God's relationship with humanity.

The fact that very few Jews believe in the Genesis/ Exodus description of their history also reflects the disconnect between belief and scripture in the contemporary world. Also the fact that only a small subset of Jews practice traditional Judaism, also negates any view of close to 100%.

Someone does not have to be on the inside to realise this disconnect problem, between an extremely tribal cultural religious perspective and the universal perspective of humanity.

Regardless of whether you use 'G_d' or 'God' it is a three letter word for the 'Source' of all of existence some call God(s). In other languages it is four or more letters.

 

[PureX]

Only when the new Manifestation is sent does He has the authority to officially interpret the revelation of old.

Honest, intelligent men will do their own interpreting. Only the feeble and weak-minded allow other men to tell them what to think.

 

[shunyadragon]

@shunyadragon this text was written in the 15th century, nearly 600 years ago. He didn't have the benefit of modern scholarship or impartiality.

The fact that a 15th century, pre-Reformation Cardinal was willing to engage with the Qur'an at all - in an era where Christians and Muslims were in places slaughtering each other on the battlefield - even in spite of all the obvious prejudices he brings to the exegesis (and which can't be helped given the cultural conditioning of the time period), is what's important.

He went further than most Christians have until the 20th century, in actually opening a dialogue between the Sultan and Pope Pius II.

Rest assured, I wasn't accusing anyone of anything and cannot understand why my quotation from a late medieval text would be construed as such.

Your use of the 15th century text without qualifications makes your response constrained as such. In many ways it still represents the tribal chasm between religions very apparent today.

 

[dybmh]

First the Torah Observant Community is not truly representative of Judaism in general.

Well that's a bold statement. Good luck proving that.

Yes, Torah Observant Jews, do likely have a strong, but nonetheless the common use of God in conversation and salutations is a cultural manifestation in ALL Abrahamic religions and does not entail a strong belief in God

HAH! You appear to ignorant of large segments of Jewish culture. The fact that you do not recognize your own ignorance is noted.

Your discussion so far represents only your observations of the Torah Observant communities, and not Judaism. Your figure of 100% is unbelievably naive and optimistic,

OK, what are you basing your judgements on. Please help me to understand the foundations of **your** credibility in this matter.

What you have described above indeed reflects the problem that Judaism is strongly still a tribal cultural religion, and does not remotely reflect any universal view of God and God's relationship with humanity.

You got the first part right, and the last part wrong. 50% accuracy. Please, I brought evidence. I qualified it and fully disclosed the limitations of the answer I provided. What have *you* brought to back up your claim. Nada. Please enlighten me and bring proof.

The fact that very few Jews believe in the Genesis/ Exodus description of their history also reflects the disconnect between belief and scripture in the contemporary world. Also the fact that only a small subset of Jews practice traditional Judaism, also negates any view of close to 100%.

Ohhhh... so you have ESP then. You *know* what's going on inside the hearts and minds of Jews. That's not very convincing.

Someone does not have to be on the inside to realise this disconnect problem, between an extremely tribal cultural religious perspective and the universal perspective of humanity.

You're ignorant of Judaism, and I can continue to show it and show it and show it again. if you want to proceed. I will repeatedly demonstrate this.

Regardless of whether you use 'G_d' or 'God' it is a three letter word for the 'Source' of all of existence some call God(s). In other languages it is four or more letters.

Well there you go... you don't even know the mythos surrounding the divine names. Ya don't even know what they are, what they mean, or their significance.

I rest my case.

You are not a credible source of information about Judaism. I am happy to continue to go point to point with you as I have done in other debates.

the choice is yours.

 

[od19g6]

Honest, intelligent men will do their own interpreting. Only the feeble and weak-minded allow other men to tell them what to think.

This is not about allowing other men to tell you what to think, which the Prophets / Messengers where not doing anyway. Matter of fact Baha'u'llah in this time and age tells humanity that we all have the responsibility of thinking for ourselves.

These are Manifestations, rare individuals that come in the world about every 1000 years.

Baha'u'llah says:
O ye leaders of religion! Who is the man amongst you that can rival Me in vision or insight? Where is he to be found that dareth to claim to be My equal in utterance or wisdom? No, by My Lord, the All-Merciful! All on the earth shall pass away; and this is the face of your Lord, the Almighty, the Well-Beloved.

 

[dybmh]

@shunyadragon ,

In an attempt to try to approach some understanding...

Here's an example:

Weight Watchers... have you heard of it? People join weight watchers to lose weight. Even if no one in weight watchers loses weight... that doesn't mean Weight Watchers is not about.... losing weight.

Can we agree that far?

Even if Jewish people do not believe in God... that doesn't speak about Judaism. You are speaking about how it is practiced **by assimilated people**. At best you are describing a watered down version of Judaism... Jewish Atheism... Jewish Agnosticism... And I made that clear in my reply. You are not accurately describing Judaism.

OK?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What about their person, life, or written word? We already covered that giving good advice is not sufficient. So what, specifically?

As we can not meet Baha'u'llah now, we have to rely upon those that met him, we have the recorded history of his life and person.

The records show that from birth they are known not to be like other children. There is not teacher that can teach them. Their power of attraction is inherent. Those stories are available for the Bab and Baha'u'llah - This some for Baha'u'llah - Birth and Childhood of Baha'u'llah - Some for the Bab - Stories about the Bab – Reflections on the Bahai Writings

In April 1890 Professor Edward Granville Browne of Cambridge University (Who was not a Baha'i) met Bahá’u’lláh in four successive interviews. Professor Browne wrote of his first meeting: "The face of Him on Whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one's very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow.… No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain." Link - Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 38-40

The written word speaks for itself. It has the power to transform and it is what mankind needs in the age it is given. Thus if one names a challenge the world faces in this day, an answer will be found in the Writings of Baha'u'llah. This passage explains that concept;

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.
Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live".

Thus that is what we can look at and consider, we can decide for our own self if any of that has any merit.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm going to have to get back to you regarding the Maid. I didn't see, in the Divine Script, where I'm supposed hook up with a maid, Divine or otherwise.

Just go hook up. What can you lose?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All good points, Trailblazer. All good points. I think the difference for me is that I'm attempting to take an academic approach to the subject matter. And that's where the wheelhouse comes in. But if you ask me what I believe... that becomes very complicated very fast. And I would probably confuse myself just trying to type it out.

From an Academic perspective, I think we all have our own forte. I know all kinds of weird IT stuff that most folks don't... because I work in the field. That's really all I was trying to say.

In reality it is a lot weirder than we think The issue is, we have been brought up in an age that is very materialistic based. IT is just an amazing evidence of the intelligence behind creation.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, GIS Cartographer.
The IT guys are our friends.

Your worth your wait in Gold I have worked a bit in the past in the MapInfo program, a great tool for Councils in Australia.

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

@shunyadragon ,

In an attempt to try to approach some understanding...

Here's an example:

Weight Watchers... have you heard of it? People join weight watchers to lose weight. Even if no one in weight watchers loses weight... that doesn't mean Weight Watchers is not about.... losing weight.

Can we agree that far?

No. Superficial and not related to the topic at hand.

Even if Jewish people do not believe in God... that doesn't speak about Judaism. You are speaking about how it is practiced **by assimilated people**. At best you are describing a watered down version of Judaism... Jewish Atheism... Jewish Agnosticism... And I made that clear in my reply. You are not accurately describing Judaism.

OK?

I believe this does not reflect what you nor I posted concerning Judaism. You are describing an idealist view of Judaism based on a minority of 'Torah Observant Jews.'

I do not believe you have responded to the problem of Judaism being a highly tribal cultural narrow perspective of God and Revelation without consideration of a universal perspective of the relationship between God and humanity.

 

[dybmh]

idealist view of Judaism

That ^^ is Judaism. That's what a religion is, dude. It's a sympathetic apologetic silver lined rose colored understanding of the text, history, and customs.

Do you expect me to believe that any Baha'i does not have an "idealized" view of their own religion? Get real.

You want to side-step the fact that you are ignorant of Judaism... Noted. Dude. Just stop replying and stop embarrassing yourself, OK?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I’m not sure how the Big Bang theory relates to Muhammad. There were other factors at play such as increasing exposure to different cultures with Jewish tribes being established in the vicinity, the spread of Christianity and many people passing through Mecca. So Islam in part emerged from increasing exposure to diverse cultures.

A key may be that an important correction for the doctrine of the Trinity was given - The Station of Jesus Christ as a Messenger of God was confirmed in the Quran.

That distinction is a foundation to the Message given by God in this Day, it is a necessary piece of the bigger puzzle, it removes a piece that is not part of the puzzle.
@Terry Sampson

Regards Tony