Is progressive revelation believable?

[Aupmanyav]

The proof of Baha'u'llah is in His life and teachings, the details are in those, you just have to read a little.

I haver read enough about Bahaullah and find him most unscientific, egoistic, vengeful and disgusting person, the way he and his descendants ex-communicated all their own relatives, all babis, and any one who dared to differ with them. Even after their death, you have a most dictatorial group which you call the Universal House of Justice (sic.) dominating the Bahais.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But whouldn't you say that any type of leader would have a lot of influences over their followers? Baha'u'llah was talking to the religions leaders that was leading the people astray.

I do not think Bahaullah was doing anything of that sort. He was only interested in establishing his superiority and that of his family among the ignorant gullible people in Middle-East, particularly Iran. I would hate to be dominated by any persons views. I consider Buddha and Sankaracharya as my teachers, but I differ from both of them. Buddha said dont go just by what is written in scriptures and do not automatically think that what a person idolized by some says is Gods own truth. Check things for yourself (Kalama Sutta).

.. but how is that going to help the world, given the fact that 55% of the world population is Christians and Muslims? They are not going to join an Indian religion. In fact, the Christians and Muslims are not going to change their religions at all, and then there is the small number of Jews who are caught in the crossfire. So what is going to become of humanity if something does not change?

We cannot help them. Most of them are not good enough to join the Indian religions. Let them flounder in their false beliefs. They will have to sort out the things on their own. Atheism is rising in the Christian world, it would happen among the Muslims (and the insignificant numbers of Bahais) too. In time, people will realize that all this talk of One God \ Allah and the various prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manifestations \ mahdis is just hogwash. It is then that the world would come to peace.

 

[od19g6]

Why just these seven. And Buddha who did not even say that God exists; and Krishna who said He is the God. Kindly read Mirza own writing, I think he has explained his mission and add it to your line of accepted people. If Allah sent him, you are committing a great sin of denying his message. He is the latest as far as I know. As you say Wikipedia is not the most reliable of source.

I did forget Noah, sorry about that.

I did read some of mirza ghulam ahmad initial biography and I think I'm getting the idea about who is he.

Even though he had good intentions he is basically a person that's still working with the revelation of islam, which is a revelation of old. A brand new legitimate Manifestation of God brings a whole new independent revelation and a new calendar.

The criterias that a person is a true Messenger is:

What do they actually teach? Do they practice what they teach? What prophecies do they fulfill from the scriptures of old?

Another way you know a true Manifestation is that thay come with a new independent revelation and a new calendar, they speak of another that is going to come after them or a return, and if the one who is claiming to be a Prophet still working from an old revelation then they're not a true Manifestation. Another thing to ask is whether ther teachings is mainly based on hate, if they are than they're not a true Messenger.

Some people think that it's always Messengers, that come very often, but the fact is the Messengers are rare individuals that appears around about every 1000 years and that they're always from the east.

I would like to use the analogy of a mature and knowledgeable child and an actual educated adult teacher. While the mature and knowledgeable child may have a big impact on the other children and they feel like they want to follow him that child will still be limited in what he can do because he's still a child and he's not actually been educated. But the actual adult teacher actually have the education to teach the children. So the educated adult teacher will have a far more more impact than the mature and knowledgeable child.

And you have to remember they can't pass just one criteria, thay have to pass all of the criterias and Baha'u'llah does just that.

Another person that you are missing out in the list is Joseph Smith. He had been given golden plates by God. Your list is incomplete.

Now honestly I'm not an historian so I don't know to much about joseph smith or the golden plates. But he doesn't fulfill all of the criterias even though he had good intentions.

We do believe however that joseph smith was a spiritual person that was sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century.

Tell me a message better than what we Hindus have.

The spiritual message is not better, it's basically the same. It's the up to date social message that different, such as: calling for unity on a planetary level, letting us know that human beings are an ever advancing civilization, the harmony between science and spirituality etc.

As for my being a Hindu and an atheist, I believe in non-duality, Advaita. Each and every particle in this universe is nothing other than a non-God, eternal, form-independent, changeless, un-involved entity which we know as Brahman. Therefore, it makes God imaginary, superfluous and unnecessary9.

Kinda confusing, but I'm listening.

 

[od19g6]

Actually, I do. "Manifestation of God" is a term that the Baha'i think they have a trademark on. Beyond that, I can read. Manifestation of God - Wikipedia
However, they don't have a trademark on "manifestation of God". I do.do.

Let me explain the meaning of the term Manifestation of God, and why it has a capital M.

Baha'u'llah says: 'And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven'.

'And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. “But for Thee, I would have not created the heavens.” Nay, all in their holy presence fade into utter nothingness, and are a thing forgotten. Human tongue can never befittingly sing their praise, and human speech can never unfold their mystery. These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest.

It hath therefore become manifest and evident that within the tabernacles of these Prophets and chosen Ones of God the light of His infinite names and exalted attributes hath been reflected, even though the light of some of these attributes may or may not be outwardly revealed from these luminous Temples to the eyes of men. That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they Who are the Daysprings of God’s attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it. Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty'.

So when a Manifestation appears in the world that person has the names and attributes of God in the highest level perfectly, that means that of you want to know God the only and best way to know is to look to the Manifestations. That's why the Manifestations has a capital M just as God has a capital G.

 

[od19g6]

I believe there is progressive revelation. I believe the Qu'ran has progressive revelation for the idol worshipers of Arabia and a tiny bit of little importance for the Christian community since Christians already have the Gospel which is sufficient to the end of time. I dn't believe the Bahais have any.

So why don't you believe that the baha'i faith has any?

 

[od19g6]

I believe as usual he is making suppositions that he can't support rationally.

If you really want to know read the Kitáb-i-íqán. Baha'u'llah explains it there.

 

[od19g6]

I don't think I missed any posts but if I did I apologize. I asked what "new spiritual laws for this day" do the Baha'I propose which are exclusive to their religion and are not in this day, followed by atheists, humanist, or followers of other religions?

I only asked for a couple. And being that the entire claim for Baha'i is that it is needed because of the new laws and practices in order to save humanity and that all other religions are outdated and should now follow Baha'i, I would think that would be a major question they would be jumping up and down to answer.

However, I have asked several times in various threads over several months and have never received an answer other than investigate it myself. It just doesn't make sense. Something just doesn't add up.

I don't know if I replied to you, but I don't I'll do so now.

There is no new spiritual teachings. The spiritual teachings are eternal they never will change, things like do unto others as you would be done to yourself will always be.

It's the social teachings that changes from age to age. Things like calling for unity on a planetary level, letting us know that human beings are an ever advancing civilization, proclaiming that science and spirituality are in harmony, thing like those are messages that we need for this age.

 

[od19g6]

But Bahai is tribalism.
If you don't belong in the tribe of Bahai, then in a Bahai World you won't get a vote for who will lead you.

In the future it will be a whole different civilization. There will be no fanaticism in the baha'i faith.

 

[od19g6]

I tend to agree, but what fascinates me is the stopping point for each religion.

What is the stopping point of each religion?

See, I would argue that there are plenty of manifestations that go unsung because society ignored them. It's like when people ask me if I think Jesus is coming back and I say we most likely already executed him in some illegal immigrant concentration camp. Everything we do unto the least of these is done unto Jesus, as the saying goes. So ... Jesus is probably unfriending a LOT of people.

Well you may consider this,

The criterias for a true Messenger of God is:
What do they actually teach? Do they practice what they teach? What prophecies do they fulfill from the scriptures of old?

Another way you know a true Manifestation is that thay come with a new independent revelation and a new calendar, they speak of another that is going to come after them or a return, and if the one who is claiming to be a Prophet still working from an old revelation then they're not a true Manifestation. Another thing to ask is whether ther teachings is mainly based on hate, if they are than they're not a true Messenger.

Some people think that it's always Messengers, that come very often, but the fact is the Messengers are rare individuals that appears around about every 1000 years and that they're always from the east.

I would like to use the analogy of a mature and knowledgeable child and an actual educated adult teacher. While the mature and knowledgeable child may have a big impact on the other children and they feel like they want to follow him that child will still be limited in what he can do because he's still a child and he's not actually been educated. But the actual adult teacher actually have the education to teach the children. So the educated adult teacher will have a far more more impact than the mature and knowledgeable child.

 

[od19g6]

Spyral dynamics is all about establishing successive models for ways of dealing with the world, employing them to their fullest, and eventually realizing that there is a need for a more ambitious, more comprehensive and ultimately more "expensive" (harder to maintain) model.

I do not subscribe to the Bahai idea of progressive revelation, but it sure seems to follow the same general idea.

The major difference is that this is a divine model.

It is Abrahamic monotheism that I find unsuitable to me.

So why do you find Abrahamic monotheism unsuitable?

 

[od19g6]

I haver read enough about Bahaullah and find him most unscientific, egoistic, vengeful and disgusting person, the way he and his descendants ex-communicated all their own relatives, all babis, and any one who dared to differ with them. Even after their death, you have a most dictatorial group which you call the Universal House of Justice (sic.) dominating the Bahais.

Wow.

This is what Baha'u'llah said:
We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family….Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind….

Does that sound like someone that's evil?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Does that sound like someone that's evil?

After a couple of years of chatting here, that is all some choose to see.

All the best.

Regards Tony

 

[od19g6]

I think all of these theories about progressive revelations etc are mostly apologetics. There could be some changes in whatever God (if there is one) was deeming right to send as a message to humans depending on what ever is right (I cannot speak for God), but people are making a lot of things up to divide, unite, justify, plagiarise, spread, etc etc. And most of these things are assumptions.

If you don't mind me asking, what is apologetics exactly?

If you read the teachings of Baha'u'llah it will be apparent that it is about unity and divine education.

 

[firedragon]

If you don't mind me asking, what is apologetics exactly?

If you read the teachings of Baha'u'llah it will be apparent that it is about unity and divine education.

Apologetics is an approach of defending a religious doctrine.

 

[od19g6]

Please correct me if i am wrong but, my understanding is that the Bahai faith takes from Islam (in some fashion). So, if that's true, then that will actually contradict the existence of the bahai faith since it clearly states in the Quran and numerous hadiths that Prophet Muhammad was the last and final Prophet and no other/more revelation is to come after him.

The baha'i faith doesn't takes no more from islam than christianity takes from judaism.

Baha'u'llah has unsealed the scriptures, only through Baha'u'llah will we know what the scriptures really meant.

 

[od19g6]

I do not think Bahaullah was doing anything of that sort. He was only interested in establishing his superiority and that of his family among the ignorant gullible people in Middle-East, particularly Iran. I would hate to be dominated by any persons views. I consider Buddha and Sankaracharya as my teachers, but I differ from both of them. Buddha said dont go just by what is written in scriptures and do not automatically think that what a person idolized by some says is Gods own truth. Check things for yourself (Kalama Sutta).

All of the revelations that have appeared in this world was about love and divine education.

You ether want the divine education or you don't.

 

[od19g6]

Apologetics is an approach of defending a religious doctrine.

Ok, thanks.

 

[firedragon]

All of the revelations that have appeared in this world was about love and divine education.

You ether want the divine education or you don't.

This is good for a sermon brother. I dont mean this in a disrespectful way but your statements are so superficial, vague, general and preaching.

You said all the revelations that have appeared, what do you mean? All the revelations ever appeared, like the Vedas, Smritis, book of the dead, Upanishads, Tipitaka, OT, NT, Quran, Book of levi, dasathir, Kithab al akdas, all the ahadith, the so called suhufi ibrahima, apocrypha, epistle of barnabas, gospel of barnabas, epistle of clement, etc etc etc? All the books ever seen in this world? What is your criteria which one is revelation and which one is not? What is the colour you are painting everything with?

 

[od19g6]

This is good for a sermon brother. I dont mean this in a disrespectful way but your statements are so superficial, vague, general and preaching.

You said all the revelations that have appeared, what do you mean? All the revelations ever appeared, like the Vedas, Smritis, book of the dead, Upanishads, Tipitaka, OT, NT, Quran, Book of levi, dasathir, Kithab al akdas, all the ahadith, the so called suhufi ibrahima, apocrypha, epistle of barnabas, gospel of barnabas, epistle of clement, etc etc etc? All the books ever seen in this world? What is your criteria which one is revelation and which one is not? What is the colour you are painting everything with?

It's only superficial, vague, general because you don't know the details of Baha'u'llah's writings, which you have to investigate for yourself.

I would tell people that even though the scriptures like the the ones of hinduism, buddhism and even the bible have legitimate divine origins, those scriptures are very old. The people back then did not have what we have in this age, so some things of those old scriptures may not be authentic and not the original.

The main criteria for revelation is the Manifestations of God and Baha'u'llah in this time and age have unsealed the scriptures. Only through Baha'u'llah will we know what the scriptures truly meant.

 

[firedragon]

It's only superficial, vague, general because you don't know the details of Baha'u'llah's writings, which you have to investigate for yourself.

I would tell people that even though the scriptures like the the ones of hinduism, buddhism and even the bible have legitimate divine origins, those scriptures are very old. The people back then did not have what we have in this age, so some things of those old scriptures may not be authentic and not the original.

The main criteria for revelation is the Manifestations of God and Baha'u'llah in this time and age have unsealed the scriptures. Only through Baha'u'llah will we know what the scriptures truly meant.

Alright.

Have you read the Yamaka Vagga in Dammapada from the Abidharma Pitaka of the Buddhist scripture?
Have you read the epistle of Barnabas?

If you have not, its fine. If you have read, thats commendable.

But if you have not, you dont knnow what it is saying. So you cant make statements about it without knowing what it is saying.

So making general comemnnts about all scripture or whatever is nonsensical.