Is progressive revelation believable?

[Vinayaka]

???

In two ways ... many Baha'i adherents have been to this forum before, and each have said the same thing ... that Baha'ullah is the real deal, and that we have proof. You're still new here, and I was pointing that out to you. So it just seems so repetitive to me.

The other thing is that other religions or groups say the same thing ... "Our faith is the real deal and we can prove it." Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Satya Sai Baba followers, Meher Baba followers, Ammadiyya Muslims, Muslims in general. Christians in general. Even individuals about themselves, and we have a coupld of those on this forum. (Not all to be sure!) So it's not a new message ... the idea that 'I have the truth, and I can prove it."

So imagine a circle of people, 100 strong. Each in turn steps forward into the middle of the circle, and yells out the the others ... "I have the proof and I can prove it." Once it gets through all 100 people, it just starts over, and continues going round and round, nobody even seeing the other 99 people.

Then, back on the hills overlooking this entire thing are a few more people, just watching, and watching, and hoping somebody steps out, or notices someone else, that there is some shift in the pattern, but there never is. So eventually the watchers just give up and go home.

 

[od19g6]

In two ways ... many Baha'i adherents have been to this forum before, and each have said the same thing ... that Baha'ullah is the real deal, and that we have proof. You're still new here, and I was pointing that out to you. So it just seems so repetitive to me.

It's really not our proofs, it's Baha'u'llah's proofs that He is a legitimate Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation.

It's not repetitive unless you're denying the proofs.

The other thing is that other religions or groups say the same thing ... "Our faith is the real deal and we can prove it." Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Satya Sai Baba followers, Meher Baba followers, Ammadiyya Muslims, Muslims in general. Christians in general. Even individuals about themselves, and we have a coupld of those on this forum. (Not all to be sure!) So it's not a new message ... the idea that 'I have the truth, and I can prove it."

Ok, the question is can they?

 

[Vinayaka]

It's really not our proofs, it's Baha'u'llah's proofs that He is a legitimate Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation.

Is not repetitive unless you're denying the proofs.

But that's what the others say as well ... that it's their guy's proofs, not theirs. In the case of the Christians, they say it's the Bible that does the proving.

But I will give up now. Carry on.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In two ways ... many Baha'i adherents have been to this forum before, and each have said the same thing ... that Baha'ullah is the real deal, and that we have proof. You're still new here, and I was pointing that out to you. So it just seems so repetitive to me.

It's really not our proofs, it's Baha'u'llah's proofs that He is a legitimate Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation.

Is not repetitive unless you're denying the proofs.

It has been offered many, many times by the Baha'i on this forum that the proof of the Messenger is their own self, their life and their Message. That is all the proof they need to give, the rest is up to us to sort out.

This is what od19g6 has now again explained.

It is repetitive, as the same people return to take on the same arguments, to which someone new will most likely answer.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The other thing is that other religions or groups say the same thing ... "Our faith is the real deal and we can prove it." Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Satya Sai Baba followers, Meher Baba followers, Ammadiyya Muslims, Muslims in general. Christians in general. Even individuals about themselves, and we have a coupld of those on this forum. (Not all to be sure!) So it's not a new message ... the idea that 'I have the truth, and I can prove it."

The key here is that one can make up their own mind as to what the Messengers have said in their Holy Books. Thus one can become a Lover of the Message that came through Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah and embrace them all.

It is both the Bab and Baha'u'llah who opened the mind to that choice, is there any other that has done that, that has inspired the followers to achieve that?

Be a Lover of the Light, no matter from whence it shines. It shines from you Vinayaka, every time you give of self for the benefit of others and by the sounds of things, you do that often.

All the best on this day, which is a day the Christians celebrate as the birth of Jesus who became known as the Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[Muffled]

In the Kitab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah proves the Messages prior to Jesus and after Jesus.

This is an extract from part One:

".. And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the dayspring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfill the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the law of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation.... "

This is a link to the book. You can open and do a search on a keyword to find anything you wish to look for;

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

All the best.

RegardsTony

I do not see that. I believe you will have to explain why you think so.

 

[Muffled]

That's the criteria when you read the baha'i scriptures which is the current divine revelation for this time and age.

I believe that qualifies as man's criteria but not God's criteria.

 

[Muffled]

Too many people claim to have the Holy Spirit as their guide, and claim diverse conflicting. and of course able to tell. All we have is one person saying one thing, and everyone claiming something different. Accusations of 'others' and not you is subjective and egocentric making judgements of the motives of others. Your neglecting the fact that we are all fallible humans.

I believe the Holy Spirit in me is infallible. However a claim is one thing being able to prove a claim another. I have proof from God that the Holy Spirit is working in my life and guiding my thinking and saying my words.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe the Holy Spirit in me is infallible. However a claim is one thing being able to prove a claim another. I have proof from God that the Holy Spirit is working in my life and guiding my thinking and saying my words.

This represents circular reasoning that has no meaning other than to justify your own belief to yourself.

 

[od19g6]

I believe that qualifies as man's criteria but not God's criteria.

How is that's not God's criteria?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not see that. I believe you will have to explain why you think so.

That is OK Muffled.

If you do not see that, no explanations from me are of any value.

I hope you had a Christ filled Holy day for the day chosen as the birth of Jesus.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe the Holy Spirit in me is infallible. However a claim is one thing being able to prove a claim another. I have proof from God that the Holy Spirit is working in my life and guiding my thinking and saying my words.

From what I have currently understood Muffled, is that we are born of the Human Spirit, we do not have the Holy Spirit in us and we are not infallible.

What gives us a connection to the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Faith, being born again in Christ gives a connection, but it is just that a connection. We can become a mirror of the Holy Spirit in the Spirit of Faith, only when when polish the mirror of the soul from worldly dross and reflect the unconstrained, unblemished Word. If we add our own interpretation, this is dross on the mirror, the light dims.

The difficult part of this is we have a tendency to see the light is our own, pride is one of the hardest forms of dross to clean from the mirror of our heart.

When we know we are not a source, we can then look for the sources of light, where Christ did shine from in this world. They are our connection, the Alpha and the Omega.

Regards Tony

 

[od19g6]

Not 'Who'........ more exact to tell you 'What taught me'. Nature taught me what I know. The closest manifestation of God that I can see is Nature, which of course includes everything from Galaxies to leaves, etc.

But who taught you to look at nature for guidance in the fist place? You wouldn't possibly know this unless there were a teacher to teach you. You couldn't have known this from being a baby. Who taught you the philosophy? Who taught you about God?

There would be no unity, and no peace, and individual freedom would be crushed.
If you reverse every Bahai claim then a more clear picture of its outcome could be seen.
A World government that believes it cannot go wrong, whether it chooses that right is left, or up is down, guided by God....... that would be the wicked. As in 'Stars Wars' movies, the rebels would be the heroes.

Firstly you don't know what the exact system of the world government will be. That will be for a future and new civilization.

And everything else you said is just wrong.

If you put down the religious zeal and pick up the science, you have no idea about what life forms can think faster, higher, more exactly than humans.

I suggest you put away these arrogant ideas and humble yourself before most of Nature's creatures, any of which are more tenacious than you or me in their own ways.

I know what you're doing. You're praising the physical world too much.

This is not about being physically superior, this is about being divinely and spiritually superior. We human beings have a reality beyond the physical world and thats our true reality and nature.

Do you believe that the human being has a spiritual reality?

A crazy idea.You have no idea about what is out there in the 100 billion galaxies of this one universe, each containing 100 billion star systems. And you think we are 'it'? That's too dangerous to be let pick up power in this tiny planet, imo.

One again you're talking about the physical universe. The human being is beyond the physical universe because we have superior spiritual reality.

Let me ask you something:
Can the animal/nature invent things?

Can the animal/nature build a tribe?

Can the animal/nature build a city?

Can the animal/nature build an entire state?

Can the animal/nature build whole countries and entire civilizations?

How about this one for you: Can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel?

All of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.


So what you saying again about the human being is small...?

 

[od19g6]

Bahai should not pretend that mankind's efforts to increase human-rights are because Bahauallah wrote something.

As much as you seem not to believe it, whenever a new Messenger comes into the world creative and spiritual energies are released into the world. The people are just not aware of it.

Bahai has done nothing for the poore in 150 years

How do you know every baha'i community has done nothing for the poor, where's your proof?

And you do know that this a new faith do you? It's not that many baha'is in the world right now.

Dreadful!
Bahai has gone BACKWARDS!
The early Abrahamic laws put Bahai to shame.
Now see the poor-laws of the Old Testament.

Ex.22:21
Ex.22. 24
Lev.19:9 - 10
Lev. 23:22
Lev.19:9 & 10
Lev. 23:22
Deut. 14:28-29
Deut. 15:2
Deut. 15:7
Deut. 15:9
Deut. 15:11
Deut.24:6
Deut. 24:10
Deut. 24:12
Deut. 24:17
Deut. 24:19 -20)
Deut. 24:21

I'm not about to seep through all those and it's really not required.

Just quote a couple of them to try a proof your point.

 

[od19g6]

As an outsider looking in, and as a person who doesn't believe in prophets at all, I see all self-declared prophets as being rather similar. Each group, of the 50 or so larger groups, and another 1000+ individuals who claim it on their own, all of them say their guy is right and all the others are wrong.

Well it's not about saying the one Prophet is right and another Prophet is wrong. If both are ligitament Messengers then they're both right, it's just that they're teachings came at different times and places.

That's why we have to have discernment about who's who.

The criteria for a true Messenger is:

What do they actually teach? Do they practice what they teach? What prophecies do they fulfill from the scriptures of old?

Another way you know a true Manifestation is that thay come with a new independent revelation and a new calendar, they speak of another that is going to come after them or a return, and if the one who is claiming to be a Prophet still working from an old revelation then they're not a true Manifestation. Another thing to ask is whether ther teachings is mainly based on hate, if they are than they're not a true Messenger.

To top it off, they claim 'proof'. There is no real proof. So there is a commonality of error in logic.

How do you know there is no real proof?
Have you investigated those 'proofs'?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahai has done nothing for the poore in 150 years...... or do you know better?

OB - These children can use your help.

Friends Of Brilliant Star

This school is established by a Baha that helps His community to emerge from poverty. It has be established on the Rhui book concept and mainstream education.

The way out of poverty is education and that is where you will find the Baha'i actively engaged in the communities.

RegardsTony

 

[Bird123]

Your statement is very vague.

Care to explain what you mean by the statement?

You made rules that limit you from discovering reality.

Such rules as : Spirituality has to be refined by manifestations.

We would not know of divine education if not for manifestations.

You say God defines exactly between good and bad.

You say we will never know God.

You say humans must accept divine education.

Don't you see? You have boxed yourself with these rules you have created.

Let's look at these few. We are spiritual beings in our true nature. There is no refinement needed by any manifestations. It's who we are. You can discover this without religion.

Divine education does not depend on knowing you are being educated. It does not depend on any manifestations. How was God educating cavemen? There was no problem then.

You can not show me where God has placed an exact line between good and evil. There is no manifestation that does this. God has no need to define good and evil. Each will decide for themselves.

When you say we will never know God, it's because discovery takes work and it's easier to accept a box of beliefs and say it can't be done so you don't have to try. God hides nothing about Himself. Your created rule is what prevents you.

You say humans must accept divine education. Education has never depended on accepting or rejecting. Parents need to out think their children. In this case, we aren't even in the ball park yet.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. If you choose to create such a narrow view, you will wall yourself from the real truth that stares us all in the face.

People and their holy books. They are so proud to have memorized them and yet that very thing prevents them from true Discovery.

God has never needed holy books. They are a creation of mankind. If God required everyone to know holy books. God would have made sure everyone got a copy or better yet, God would have implanted the information before birth. Intelligence can distribute far better than believers trying to convince others. God isn't working on beliefs. Religion is.

You can make your rules or follow rules made by religions, but you will never move forward until you free yourself from the limits and narrow views that it creates.

Well, that's what I see. It's very clear to me.

 

[oldbadger]

But who taught you to look at nature for guidance in the fist place? You wouldn't possibly know this unless there were a teacher to teach you. You couldn't have known this from being a baby. Who taught you the philosophy? Who taught you about God?

Nobody needed to......... it's all there!
Look about yourself.

Firstly you don't know what the exact system of the world government will be. That will be for a future and new civilization.

And everything else you said is just wrong.

Yes I do. The Bahai system would be built upon Local. National and the World (Universal) Houses of Justice. The Bahai civil and criminal laws are written. The Police forces are described. The voting system is written.

And Bahauallah wrote that the Universal House of Justice cannot be wrong, even if it decides that right is left, etc.

You just don't know about it all, maybe.

I know what you're doing. You're praising the physical world too much.

This is not about being physically superior, this is about being divinely and spiritually superior. We human beings have a reality beyond the physical world and thats our true reality and nature.

Do you believe that the human being has a spiritual reality?

Do you believe in Spirits? Do you believe in mediums existing? etc?
Yes/No?

One again you're talking about the physical universe. The human being is beyond the physical universe because we have superior spiritual reality.

No you don't.

And I answetr all your questions, below, in one listing.

Let me ask you something:
Can the animal/nature invent things?
What? Like the Industrial revolution? We've messed up the planet! Wake up!

Can the animal/nature build a tribe?
Ever heard of Bison, Walves, Dolphins etc?

Can the animal/nature build a city?
Can the animal/nature build an entire state?
Ever heard of Ants?

Can the animal/nature build whole countries and entire civilizations?
...... and overpopulating the world, you mean? No animal is more backward than mankind, methinks.

How about this one for you: Can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel?
You think that this makes humans special? That's the science which you snub, surely?
And we now think that there might be life in a satellite/moon orbiting Saturn, I think. There's life all over the universe.

All of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.
This kind of primitive thinking is becoming more laughable every year, as researchers discover more and more planets which could hold life. And your ideas about divine reality don't cut much for me because I already believe in a divinity. I'm a Deist.

So what you saying again about the human being is small...?

Yes...... of course.
And global warming could wipe us out in the future, but life will carry on., Nature will carry on, as before.
Get over yourself with this 'humanity is special', stuff.

 

[oldbadger]

As much as you seem not to believe it, whenever a new Messenger comes into the world creative and spiritual energies are released into the world. The people are just not aware of it.

Let me get this right, you think that Bahauallah's arrival caused all the good things to happen?
What about the holocaust which murdered 13+ million victims? Bahauallah?
The people won't believe stuff like this, fortunately.

How do you know every baha'i community has done nothing for the poor, where's your proof?

Because Bahai has never set up a multi-national care organisation. True?

And you do know that this a new faith do you? It's not that many baha'is in the world right now.

No. it's not. It's 150+ years old, and when it suits, Bahai claims 7 million followers.
How long have you been a Bahai?

I'm not about to seep through all those and it's really not required.

Just quote a couple of them to try a proof your point.

I quoted loads of them! And you clearly have no interest in the poor laws or you could have flipped through those in minutes with modern technology, which is why I quoted the sources. Look at them and learn something.... and the old OT laws.... they were amazing for their time.

 

[oldbadger]

OB - These children can use your help.

Friends Of Brilliant Star

This school is established by a Baha that helps His community to emerge from poverty. It has be established on the Rhui book concept and mainstream education.

The way out of poverty is education and that is where you will find the Baha'i actively engaged in the communities.

RegardsTony

It's nice when individual people run charities, Tony.
Bahai has not got a Poor-law system in place and working.

Questions!
What is the name of the Chief Executive of Friends of the brilliant Star?

EDIT:

JUST CKECKED IT OUT!

This is described by the au gov as a small charity with $980 exprenses, under $5000 donations helping a small circle of children.

Is this the asnswer that you want tio give for my question: 'Does Bahai have provision layed down for the poor in a Bahai World? These 'pens and pencils for kids charities, do they often go hand in hand with child indoctrination lessons as standard, possibly?