Is progressive revelation believable?

[CG Didymus]

Well, thanks for informing me.

You know the old telephone game, by the time the message gets back to the first person it's not even recognizable. Those old religious teachings can't be trusted. So I'm chucking my Gita and Bible out the window. And, I guess, this Baha'is book is more than 100 years old, I better get rid of it too. Oh, here's a book that is a little more resent... Hmmm? Scientology? Yeah, let me check that out.

 

[Vinayaka]

You know the old telephone game, by the time the message gets back to the first person it's not even recognizable. Those old religious teachings can't be trusted. So I'm chucking my Gita and Bible out the window. And, I guess, this Baha'is book is more than 100 years old, I better get rid of it too. Oh, here's a book that is a little more resent... Hmmm? Scientology? Yeah, let me check that out.

Well, the posting and my reply did remind me of a few real life events. There is something cute and funny and ironic about somebody who knows nothing about a subject telling a person who knows a lot about a subject stuff about the subject.

I have been lectured about vegetarianism. I have been told all about the city I live in. I have been told all about 'the Hindu temple in Hawaii' by people who visited there one day.

But ya know, sometimes condescension just deserves sarcasm, eh? What can I say?

 

[CG Didymus]

Well, the posting and my reply did remind me of a few real life events. There is something cute and funny and ironic about somebody who knows nothing about a subject telling a person who knows a lot about a subject stuff about the subject.

I have been lectured about vegetarianism. I have been told all about the city I live in. I have been told all about 'the Hindu temple in Hawaii' by people who visited there one day.

But ya know, sometimes condescension just deserves sarcasm, eh? What can I say?

These are some strange threads we get involved in. I read the story about Rama and Sita back in '68 or'69. All I remember is that Hanuman jumped like 500 miles to where Sita was being held captive. Now I never thought it was literally true. Same thing with story about Krishna and Arjuna. It wasn't until I got with the Fundy Christians that I was expected to take religious stories literally., and I tried.

With the Baha'is, there is so much that I agreed with. We should respect all people no matter what religion or color of their skin and all whatever else divides us. I agreed that most all religious stories shouldn't be taken as literal. But when the OP says, "But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive." And then the usual, There is One God and he sent different messengers etc. etc. All I see in that is a religion trying to push it's little truth as The Truth. To that I'd like to tell them... "Come on Baha'is, let's really be one. And let's really respect the beliefs of other people." But that just doesn't seem to be working.

Baha'is, almost like Fundy Christians, have one way of believing. It is their way, the real way... the best way... the newest way. It gets old. But when times get hard. And I feel like quitting. I turn to something that always lifts me up... And reminds me that I have a reason to be here, sarcasm. Yes, sometimes that is the best response.

 

[od19g6]

So are you sure this is the one true God? And this message is a progression from Hinduism and Zoroastrianism?

Joshua 6:21 21
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Deuteronomy 20:10-16
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.
12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.
13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.
15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

1 Kings 18
22 Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets...
25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first... Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.”
26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal...
29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response...
36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command.
37 Answer me, LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, LORD, are God...
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The LORD—he is God! The LORD—he is God!”
40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.​

I think I said this earlier, I'm not a historian nor am I a biblical historian.

You know what, the bible is a very peculiar book and despite what some people think the bible is not just one book it consists of many books.

The question is, sense the bible is an old book, throughout the whole bible which things in it that are not authentic? Which ones aren't and which ones are?

I may do a follow up.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think I said this earlier, I'm not a historian nor am I a biblical historian.

You know what, the bible is a very peculiar book and despite what some people think the bible is not just one book it consists of many books.

The question is, sense the bible is an old book, throughout the whole bible which things in it that are not authentic? Which ones aren't and which ones are?

I may do a follow up.

Don't worry about it, I'm not a scholar either. It's been 40 plus years when I was around the Baha'is and Christians. I do a minimal amount of research. Most of it is just to look up things to verify that what people have said is within the context of the verse they quote. If you get a chance look at the thread about Hinduism. Much of the debate with Baha'is here on the forums is about Hinduism. It all started with a Baha'i saying that Krishna founded Hinduism. That was about three years ago now. You got a little catching up to do. We've already been going at it about one God vs many... or even no God. Whether Jesus resurrected physically or spiritually. Reincarnation gets into the mix once in a while.

But your thread is a common theme. We go at it a lot about "progressive" revelation. For me, the jump from Hinduism to Judaism and the other Abrahamic religions is the main question. What we've learned from Hindus is that there is no one single founder of Hinduism. That Krishna didn't start it. That there were several "avatars" in one form of Hinduism. But, in other forms of Hinduism, they don't have avatars. And, it's not like a religion that splits off into different sects and denominations necessarily. It's like they are free to believe in different things, more like they can take a different path to get to the same place in the end.

So good luck... and I find it much easier to join in and comment on other people's threads than starting my own and trying to keep up with everything that gets posted in it.

 

[Muffled]

This represents circular reasoning that has no meaning other than to justify your own belief to yourself.

I believe there is no reasoning behind this but rather an experience. Some people want to examine that experience illogically and I respond with correct logic.

 

[Muffled]

How is that's not God's criteria?

I believe it is not God's criteria because it comes from the man who wrote it who is not God. God who is in me verifies that.

 

[Muffled]

That is OK Muffled.

If you do not see that, no explanations from me are of any value.

I hope you had a Christ filled Holy day for the day chosen as the birth of Jesus.

Regards Tony

I believe something inexplicable can't be true. I am sure God can explain anything. I suppose you could say that a lack of a relationship with Jesus means you don't have the ability to explain things from God's point of view but then you should listen to someone who does.

I believe Dec 24th is the correct day probably between 10 and 12 at night.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe something inexplicable can't be true. I am sure God can explain anything. I suppose you could say that a lack of a relationship with Jesus means you don't have the ability to explain things from God's point of view but then you should listen to someone who does.

I believe Dec 24th is the correct day probably between 10 and 12 at night.

I see God kept the Covenant and has guided us to all Truth.

Maybe Jesus Christ has showed many what the Father has offered mankind. Maybe they now live that advice.

Maybe that is the source we should listen to?

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe there is no reasoning behind this but rather an experience. Some people want to examine that experience illogically and I respond with correct logic.

Everybody claims to 'use' the correct logic based on their presuppositions and assumptions and the often come to conflicting conclusions. Very circular reasoning.

 

[Milton Platt]

Well some of the absolute truth are the foundational spiritual principles that each revelation has taught.

For example:

God is eternal.

The true human reality is eternal.

Listening to the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations are the best way for divine education.

Forgiveness.

Do unto others as you would be done unto yourself.

Things like that.

None of that has been revealed to me........
You are going to have to come up with supporting evidence to demonstrate 1. These were revealed by some agency. 2. That agency is a god.

 

[Milton Platt]

I see God kept the Covenant and has guided us to all Truth.

Maybe Jesus Christ has showed many what the Father has offered mankind. Maybe they now live that advice.

Maybe that is the source we should listen to?

Regards Tony

He seems to have ignored billions of people over the years....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

He seems to have ignored billions of people over the years....

Or they ignored, or remained ignorant of God, for whatever reason that may have been for.

Regards Tony

 

[Milton Platt]

Or they ignored, or remained ignorant of God, for whatever reason that may have been for.

Regards Tony

HI Tony. Nothing you listed amounts to convincing evidence for a god, Sorry. I know you are convinced, and that's okay. You are ignoring all the billions who lived and died and never heard of your religion over the millennia.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

HI Tony. Nothing you listed amounts to convincing evidence for a god, Sorry. I know you are convinced, and that's okay. You are ignoring all the billions who lived and died and never heard of your religion over the millennia.

Not at all Milton, they are all inclusive as many of those knew of God in their own way. Some without knowing they knew of God.

Regards Tony

 

[od19g6]

None of that has been revealed to me........
You are going to have to come up with supporting evidence to demonstrate 1. These were revealed by some agency. 2. That agency is a god.

Their is no physical evidence of God.

The best way to know God is through His divine names and attributes and the most perfect creature to display those in the physical world is the human being.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

None of that has been revealed to me........
You are going to have to come up with supporting evidence to demonstrate 1. These were revealed by some agency. 2. That agency is a god.

Their is no physical evidence of God.

The best way to know God is through His divine names and attributes and the most perfect creature to display those in the physical world is the human being.

I would comment on this aspect, because there is evidence that is offered by God. There are glimpses of what are come of the Spiritual Worlds of God, but in our frame of reference, we may not see they are and we may not live in the time where we can personally see a physical proof for our own selves.

Thus the proof in some case becomes our willingness to look at the evidence and then the trust we give to what others eye witnesses have given as proof.

There are things that are not final proofs, but help build a bigger picture. "When the prophets of God appear upon this earth, their validity is established by means of certain proofs. One of the proofs is through the fulfillment of former prophecies, the second proofs are their creative words and phrases which salute the hearts of humanity, the third are their deeds and the fourth are their teachings.....But those who do not follow closely these things will not be convinced by proofs such as these. This then to them is not a final proof."

I see a clear proof of validity lies in the achievements and here we are confronted by certain irrefutable facts. A supreme proof is the teaching, to me there is no greater proof than these teachings as they were the light of that cycle and the spirit of that age. For instance all that Christ and Muhammad said accorded with the needs of the humanity of that time, the words were peerless and unique.

This is backed by the Logic that the proof of the sun is its light and heat.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Thus the proof in some case becomes our willingness to look at the evidence and then the trust we give to what others eye witnesses have given as proof.

Unless that "evidence" doesn't match our beliefs. Like in the NT there was supposed witnesses that saw the risen Jesus. He allegedly told one of them to touch him and see that he wasn't a ghost but had flesh and bone. No, we don't believe those witnesses.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unless that "evidence" doesn't match our beliefs. Like in the NT there was supposed witnesses that saw the risen Jesus. He allegedly told one of them to touch him and see that he wasn't a ghost but had flesh and bone. No, we don't believe those witnesses.

I beleive what they saw. In the end CG one has to separate science from Faith and then read passages and decide if the passage has only material proofs, material and spiritual truths or just spiritual truths.

Regards Tony

 

[Milton Platt]

I would comment on this aspect, because there is evidence that is offered by God. There are glimpses of what are come of the Spiritual Worlds of God, but in our frame of reference, we may not see they are and we may not live in the time where we can personally see a physical proof for our own selves.

Thus the proof in some case becomes our willingness to look at the evidence and then the trust we give to what others eye witnesses have given as proof.

There are things that are not final proofs, but help build a bigger picture. "When the prophets of God appear upon this earth, their validity is established by means of certain proofs. One of the proofs is through the fulfillment of former prophecies, the second proofs are their creative words and phrases which salute the hearts of humanity, the third are their deeds and the fourth are their teachings.....But those who do not follow closely these things will not be convinced by proofs such as these. This then to them is not a final proof."

I see a clear proof of validity lies in the achievements and here we are confronted by certain irrefutable facts. A supreme proof is the teaching, to me there is no greater proof than these teachings as they were the light of that cycle and the spirit of that age. For instance all that Christ and Muhammad said accorded with the needs of the humanity of that time, the words were peerless and unique.

This is backed by the Logic that the proof of the sun is its light and heat.

Regards Tony

I don't want to explore everything every supposed prophet said or did......I want to get to the source you clam the truths are from. How do you demonstrate that a god exists? How do you demonstrate that any prophet has received any knowledge about or from a god?