Is rebirth good or a bad thing ?

[Balthazzar]

I don’t see why rebirth has to be about the preservation of one’s precious ego. E E Cummings is one of my favorite poets and he was a huge fan of rebirth but as a revitalization within one’s lifespan. His father was a pastor in a Unitarian church and William James was a regular guest in their home when he was growing up. Nice to see some Christians embracing him as one of their own.

Art & Theology

Revitalizing the Christian imagination through painting, poetry, music, and more

artandtheology.org

That has been a common understanding for as long as I can remember. The preservation of the ego championed over the preservation of the better developed personage/person/soul. Id/ego equating to how we identify ourselves as individuals. I question why our limited and ill-equipped ego would be preferred over many lifetimes of ongoing evolutionary development as living souls. I have far too much mental and psychological baggage to wish to preserve these (memories) over a better equipped and better developed operational mechanical structure developed through life experiences. Hell, even Jesus suggested John was Eliajah, implying a rebirth of Elijaha's spirit in the Baptist.

 

[Whateverist]

@Balthazzar I seem to have selected the wrong episode of that blog. Here below is the one I was trying to offer.

We have started this thread by assuming that somehow our personality can survive death - which makes no logical sense. Of course, there will only follow assumptions of the same quality. E.g. assuming there are multiple "spiritual realms".

I don’t see why rebirth has to be about the preservation of one’s precious ego. E E Cummings is one of my favorite poets and he was a huge fan of rebirth but as a revitalization within one’s lifespan. His father was a pastor in a Unitarian church and William James was a regular guest in their home when he was growing up. Nice to see some Christians embracing him as one of their own.

“i thank You God for most this amazing” by E. E. Cummings

i thank You God for most this amazing day:for the leaping greenly spirits of trees and a blue true dream of sky;and for everything which is natural which is infinite which is yes (i who have died a…

artandtheology.org

 

[Balthazzar]

Another problem it cheapens life. In case of atheists, they say life of this world is all we got. In case of people who believe there is a next world, still this life is the only life we have to prove ourselves to God. So life is precious.

Yet if innocents are killed, in the scenario there is many rebirths, it hardly matters. They get more chances.

So life becomes almost infinitely more cheap in case of reincarnation. Apathy towards injustice is a lot easier too.

How we live the current life is not a big thing either since many more possible chances. It cheapens life too much.

If it cheapens life, then this is due to not having ample time to develop, which would make next life cycle no less difficult for them. The next world comes whether we acknowledge it or not and it's not about proving ourselves to God. It's about becoming that which has been willed by God. If God so willed, why would we suggest anything to have been cheapened by our lack of understanding of these things? More chances? No! More time to become that which has been willed by God. Apathy only applies to those who don't understand that they too will be subject to the new and it's in that new that we are put through even more trial and tribulation. We're being treated as children, and we are developing over many lifetimes. Consider Hebrews 12 if you're up to reading the chapter.

Edit: Understanding is a lot like truth, in that what we don't understand or what we understand incorrectly are like lies that must be considered before we're able to move forward. Both incorrect understanding and lies limit our abilities and effectiveness. Truth opens up the channels or pathways of understanding, enabling us to achieve greater development. Erroneous information and lies become clots and dams and sometimes impasses, preventing more fluid processing abilities.

 

[Spice]

That has been a common understanding for as long as I can remember. The preservation of the ego championed over the preservation of the better developed personage/person/soul. Id/ego equating to how we identify ourselves as individuals. I question why our limited and ill-equipped ego would be preferred over many lifetimes of ongoing evolutionary development as living souls. I have far too much mental and psychological baggage to wish to preserve these (memories) over a better equipped and better developed operational mechanical structure developed through life experiences. Hell, even Jesus suggested John was Eliajah, implying a rebirth of Elijaha's spirit in the Baptist.

IMO, that's a huge misconception in the theory of reincarnation. The "ego", or the personality is not reincarnated in the whole. The conscious self is reconfigured along with the life energy for which it is a part of, and that of the physical body. For the "conscious mind" death is the end, just like the physical body, neither to be duplicated again.

It's the soul/spirit, the image of God we have inside us that guides the body-ego combination in the physical world, that is eternal in its collective entirety, IMO. I don't believe there is any conscious memory from past lives. Perhaps a spark from some reconfigured brain cell in the physical form, or genetic connection, again connected to the physical, but not whole memory from the subconscious spirit that actually goes through the incarnations complete, shedding imperfections, and expounding on the good each life contributes to this eternal mystic being that is our true selves.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for making that clear. So Bahaullah's coming has achieved nothing for humanity, except making fantastic claims.

That is not what I made clear.

What Bahaullah has written is just regurgitating other people's stuff in more flowery language. It is like writing romance novels and imagining that as great literature. Bahais have built nothing except some big buildings around the world

In your personal opinion, which is not a fact.

We will soon see the REAL Christ return perhaps even as early as next year. Bahaullah will be forgotten, even if people like you may desperately cling to him. Hopefully I can remind you at that time.

You will never see Christ return because He has already returned.

I had a Christian friend back in 2012 who said that Christ would be back no later than the following year. I wonder what she is thinking now.
Anyone can SAY that Christ is going to return and anyone can hope for that, but that is so sad because it ain't going to happen.

The prophecies for the return of Christ have already been fulfilled and that is the unequivocal proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.
We need no other proof.

 

[Balthazzar]

That is not what I made clear.

In your personal opinion, which is not a fact.

You will never see Christ return because He has already returned.

I had a Christian friend back in 2012 who said that Christ would be back no later than the following year. I wonder what she is thinking now.
Anyone can SAY that Christ is going to return and anyone can hope for that, but that is so sad because it ain't going to happen.

The prophecies for the return of Christ have already been fulfilled and that is the unequivocal proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.
We need no other proof.

How many are there? Christ's I mean. Would Soloman be counted as one? We know Jesus was counted as, the Bahaullah apparently is also. There have been other's I'm sure. When the spirit of truth was given to guide people, I wonder how many acknowledge that spirit as being the spirit of Christ in the flesh, or in us? 1 John 4 speaks of this. What if that spirit never left and has been accumulating around the world? "My spirit will be poured out upon all flesh." Joel 2

One more thing, what if the reign, or the 2nd coming doesn't take place until that prophesy has been fulfilled in all people? This would imply we have a very long way to go before the "kingdom" is established on earth through us "The children of God". Romans 8

As a Christian I'm bound to follow this as stated: Matthew 24

Yet every eye will see him. If these things are true, then maybe we should acknowledge reality, truth, an honest spirit and the Christo's as being synonymous and the adoption as being indwelled by these spiritual principles, whereby we become adopted children no longer led by the deceiver (s) of the world.

 

[Trailblazer]

How many are there? Christ's I mean. Would Soloman be counted as one? We know Jesus was counted as, the Bahaullah apparently is also. There have been other's I'm sure.

There have been many men who had the Christ spirit, but I don't think there have been many Christs. There was Jesus Christ and as a Baha'i I believe that Baha'u'llah was the promised return of Christ.

When the spirit of truth was given to guide people, I wonder how many acknowledge that spirit as being the spirit of Christ in the flesh, or in us? 1 John 4 speaks of this. What if that spirit never left and has been accumulating around the world? "My spirit will be poured out upon all flesh." Joel 2

I know that Christians believe that the spirit of truth is the indwelt Holy Spirit that guides them, but Baha'is believe that the spirit of truth was a Baha'u'llah. I believe that "My spirit will be poured out upon all flesh" (Joel 2) is a reference to the return of Christ, which is also the return of the Holy Spirit.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel 2&version=KJV

One more thing, what if the reign, or the 2nd coming doesn't take place until that prophesy has been fulfilled in all people? This would imply we have a very long way to go before the "kingdom" is established on earth through us "The children of God". Romans 8

I do not believe that prophecy will be fulfilled in all people before the second coming since I believe that prophecy refers to the second coming.

As a Christian I'm bound to follow this as stated: Matthew 24

I also believe what is in that chapter but it is subject to interpretation, so it won't mean the same thing to you as it does to me.

Yet every eye will see him. If these things are true, then maybe we should acknowledge reality, truth, an honest spirit and the Christo's as being synonymous and the adoption as being indwelled by these spiritual principles, whereby we become adopted children no longer led by the deceiver (s) of the world.

"Every eye will see him" is also subject to interpretation.

 

[Balthazzar]

There have been many men who had the Christ spirit, but I don't think there have been many Christs. There was Jesus Christ and as a Baha'i I believe that Baha'u'llah was the promised return of Christ.

I know that Christians believe that the spirit of truth is the indwelt Holy Spirit that guides them, but Baha'is believe that the spirit of truth was a Baha'u'llah. I believe that "My spirit will be poured out upon all flesh" (Joel 2) is a reference to the return of Christ, which is also the return of the Holy Spirit.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel 2&version=KJV

I do not believe that prophecy will be fulfilled in all people before the second coming since I believe that prophecy refers to the second coming.

I also believe what is in that chapter but it is subject to interpretation, so it won't mean the same thing to you as it does to me.

"Every eye will see him" is also subject to interpretation.

Let me put this in the perspective of a Christian student. The spirit of truth is our guide into all truth. There were people who claimed to be even before the bible was compiled. We were taught not to believe anyone who claimed to be "the" Christ, but to acknowledge the indwelling of Christ's spirit in us and others. We become an adopted child when we have the indwelling of a truthful spirit, so in this way we are co heirs and brothers and sister, etc. The return of the holy spirit is akin to hearing and doing, whereby we become one with Christ, also.

To establish something on earth, it is required that we have that which will help us achieve what is to be established. An honest spirit, a discerning spirit, a zeal to live in truth and not be ensnared by deception are some of these things. Interpretation is what it is, so I try not to sweat the small stuff. Time spans, the when's, and what will transpire before and after, remain unknown but I think getting honest with ourselves, and making effort to understand life better is a good place to start. When I see a truthful and honest spirit I'm seeing Christ in the flesh.

Namaste

 

[CG Didymus]

Yet every eye will see him.

Lots of verses in the Bible and the NT are claimed to be prophecies by the Baha'is. I think a more accurate claim for Baha'is to say is that all of them have been fulfilled except the ones that haven't.

 

[Balthazzar]

Lots of verses in the Bible and the NT are claimed to be prophecies by the Baha'is. I think a more accurate claim for Baha'is to say is that all of them have been fulfilled except the ones that haven't.

Yeah, well ... I'm not knowledgeable enough to make any claim of fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled prophesies, so I'll keep learning as I go anticipating a better life for us here on earth. It's the in-between stages that have me on edge.

 

[Truthseeker]

The prophecies for the return of Christ have already been fulfilled and that is the unequivocal proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.
We need no other proof.

In my opinion, prophecies are not proof, or even good evidence. I've soured on prophecies as evidence. Prophecies can and are interpreted in many ways. As you like to quote:

Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 105)

Prophecies are in 4th place after those three. I know you know better than what you just said.

 

[Truthseeker]

I know that Christians believe that the spirit of truth is the indwelt Holy Spirit that guides them, but Baha'is believe that the spirit of truth was a Baha'u'llah. I believe that "My spirit will be poured out upon all flesh" (Joel 2) is a reference to the return of Christ, which is also the return of the Holy Spirit.

It can be understood to apply to Christ, also, and to Muhammad.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..................................................................... You will never see Christ return because He has already returned.
I had a Christian friend back in 2012 who said that Christ would be back no later than the following year. I wonder what she is thinking now.
Anyone can SAY that Christ is going to return and anyone can hope for that, but that is so sad because it ain't going to happen.
The prophecies for the return of Christ have already been fulfilled and that is the unequivocal proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.
We need no other proof.

I find Matthew 25:31-34,37,40 is still future ahead of us
The ' final judgement ' by King Jesus is for living people on Earth
The figurative living 'sheep' are alive on Earth and can remains alive on Earth (Isaiah 26:20) and be here to see calendar Day One, the start of Jesus' coming 1000 year governmental reign over Earth with everlasting life in view as was originally offered to Adam before his downfall
This is a reason why we are all still invited to ask God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Jesus to come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as we read at Rev. 22:2
'Healing' as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah

 

[YoursTrue]

Let me put this in the perspective of a Christian student. The spirit of truth is our guide into all truth.

And so it's like going through a tunnel with various features -- a person may take a turn and he is not lost entirely, but not ready for the exact way. That is, of course, only an illustration and can apply to the disciples of Christ leading the way.

 

[soulsurvivor]

The prophecies for the return of Christ have already been fulfilled and that is the unequivocal proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.

Hahaha! Good one.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....................................., so I'll keep learning as I go anticipating a better life for us here on earth. It's the in-between stages that have me on edge.

Good point about the ' in-between stages' - Matthew 24 and Luke 21
We are nearing the ' final phase ' of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 about telling the world about Jesus' good news about God's Kingdom
This mean we are nearing the ' final signal ', so to speak (1st Thess. 5:2-3) when the powers in charge will be saying, " Peace and security...." That Rosy saying can lead people down that old Primrose Path, Not to a better life but will be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14 before Jesus takes the action of Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15 to rid the Earth of the wicked - Job 38:13
Then, is when Earth will become a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden was a sample
Isaiah paints a beautiful word picture for us about that coming best time in the 35th chapter of Isaiah
For there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations - Rev. 22:2; Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 25:8; 1st Corinthians 15:24-26

 

[Balthazzar]

And so it's like going through a tunnel with various features -- a person may take a turn and he is not lost entirely, but not ready for the exact way. That is, of course, only an illustration and can apply to the disciples of Christ leading the way.

I try to keep things real and honest, and I do my best to allow myself the freedom to receive greater insight. It's not that I'm lost or anything, it's just that I'm ignorant of a lot of things. It's my more natural self, minus the teenage "I know it all" propensity. I get that way sometimes too, though.

 

[Balthazzar]

Good point about the ' in-between stages' - Matthew 24 and Luke 21
We are nearing the ' final phase ' of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 about telling the world about Jesus' good news about God's Kingdom
This mean we are nearing the ' final signal ', so to speak (1st Thess. 5:2-3) when the powers in charge will be saying, " Peace and security...." That Rosy saying can lead people down that old Primrose Path, Not to a better life but will be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14 before Jesus takes the action of Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15 to rid the Earth of the wicked - Job 38:13
Then, is when Earth will become a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden was a sample
Isaiah paints a beautiful word picture for us about that coming best time in the 35th chapter of Isaiah
For there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations - Rev. 22:2; Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 25:8; 1st Corinthians 15:24-26

Tribulation and trial are always present, some are more severe than others. It's a process and it isn't always easy. It's rarely as easy as I'd sometimes like it to be, I mean. The wars seem to be ongoing, some of which we don't even acknowledge as people who live apart from. If the difference is between truth and error and God represents truth, and Satan represents error and deceit, then it becomes more evident the direction we need to go and follow.

 

[YoursTrue]

I try to keep things real and honest, and I do my best to allow myself the freedom to receive greater insight. It's not that I'm lost or anything, it's just that I'm ignorant of a lot of things. It's my more natural self, minus the teenage "I know it all" propensity. I get that way sometimes too, though.

I understand. I look back on times past and think what awful things I did. But I know and believe (now) that God forgives me, one reason is that I am sorry and I have faith. And I am learning (yes, learning) right from wrong with His help. On the other hand, I do believe Jesus uses certain ones to "lead the way," to teach, and to wait on God to continue lighting up the proper direction. Without God's help, I'd be "back where I came from," and that isn't the greatest. Thank you.

 

[Spice]

And so it's like going through a tunnel with various features -- a person may take a turn and he is not lost entirely, but not ready for the exact way. That is, of course, only an illustration and can apply to the disciples of Christ leading the way.

All in all I agree with you here. But instead of a tunnel, I'd use the analogy of a GPS preference: some choose the shortest route, some the fastest, and some the scenic. All headed to the same final destination, but on different roads for at least part of the way.