Bahaullah's coming did not assure in the Promised Day? It seems like his coming did not give humanity anything except some standard, long-winded, flowery sermons.
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Is rebirth good or a bad thing ?
- Thread starter chinu
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah's coming ushered in the Promised Day.
What Baha'u'llah gave humanity was the framework for building the new world order.
Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh
reference.bahai.org
So Bahaullah's coming did indeed assure in the Promised Day! I am glad that has been cleared up, because it sounded like the Promised Day was yet to come and Bahaullah's coming did not accomplish anything.
Out of curiosity, how did Bahaullah's Promised Day assured in by him, give us two world wars, the holocaust and two nuclear bombs with millions upon millions killed! What kind of 'Promised Day' was that?
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
We're you thinking along the lines of reincarnation, born-again Christianity, or just how many different variables would pop up off that one prompt? Interesting, though, I've not yet seen a born-again post.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah wrote a lot about this, but to keep it short, those wars were the result of the kings and rulers having turned away from Baha'u'llah after He delivered His Tablets to them. Later, he said we could have had the Most Great Peace if they had heeded His call but since they all turned away we would have to settle for the Lesser Peace.
The Lesser Peace and the Most Great Peace
The Baha'i teachings make clear that the vast changes the world has experienced in the modern age are aspects of God’s plan for the unification of humanity.
bahaiteachings.org
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Funny that TB puts a quote out there about a narrow gate and few find it. When there's also a verse that agrees with you and says that every eye will see him.
But that's just a NT writer saying things. Baha'is also believe their prophet is the return of Krishna and Buddha. I forget their claims on why they think that. But same thing, when Krishna and Buddha return, do Hindus and Buddhist believe only a few people will notice?
If in fact the Baha'i prophet is the return of Krishna and Buddha, I can see why so few people noticed. He is the supposed return of both of them at the same time, along with being Christ. And he returns to Iran, not India, gets exiled to Palestine, is imprisoned there, and dies and I don't think he ever says anything about Hinduism and Buddhism or about being the return of Krishna or Buddha.
Later, his son, Abdul Baha, makes that claim. Very "iffy" to me.
Because which beliefs and practices of either Hinduism or Buddhism did Baha'u'llah support? Not reincarnation or rebirth.
Here's a Baha'i quote...
Baha’u’llah did not mention Krishna, since Hindus were not part of his immediate audience. Later on, Abdu’l-Baha (appointed by Baha’u’llah as his successor) added the Buddha and Krishna to the Baha’i list of recognized holy messengers or “Manifestations of God”
Bahaullah wrote about the world war I and World War II and the holocaust before 1892? Truly remarkable omniscience! He should have warned everyone about Hitler before all that happened!Baha'u'llah wrote a lot about this, but to keep it short, those wars were the result of the kings and rulers having turned away from Baha'u'llah after He delivered His Tablets to them. Later, he said we could have had the Most Great Peace if they had heeded His call but since they all turned away we would have to settle for the Lesser Peace.
The Lesser Peace and the Most Great Peace
The Baha'i teachings make clear that the vast changes the world has experienced in the modern age are aspects of God’s plan for the unification of humanity.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I will leave it up to people here to try to figure out which of those makes more logical sense and which fits better with history.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah was not omniscient but He knew the future. He has a vision of WWII and He warned the king about WWII:
"We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you."
He was predicting what would happen, but only on a conditional basis. Had Kaiser Wilhelm I heeded Baha’u’llah’s warning, WWII could have been prevented.
“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 39
reference.bahai.org
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
One life or many lives? I don't know, but I'd prefer many.
However, I do try and look at things as if they were just make-up beliefs. Like a story about a man coming down from a mountain with a bunch of laws that he says came from God. Maybe? Maybe not? But what if it was just a made-up "tradition"?
Another one has a guy born of a virgin, then walks on water, then gets killed but comes back to life.
And then there's a guy who meditates and gets enlightened.
Part of all these stories is that people should be good to one another, as in... love thy neighbor as thyself. What if that was the purpose of the story? And the story gives it divine authority?
One story has people living one life and getting judged. Good people, the believers, go to heaven to be with their God. Bad people, those that didn't believe, go to hell with an evil spirit being to be punished.
Another story, which I'd much rather believe in, has people progress through many lives. Do bad stuff? Then you're coming back to learn more lessons about how to be spiritual and to live right and do right and finally reaching a spiritual state to where they don't have to come back anymore.
To me, either way, both stories are trying to get people in this life of theirs to do what is right and be more spiritual. But, to me, definitely, going through many lifetimes as different people would be a great way to learn.
Of course, I think it does make a big difference if a person believes any of these stories are true. As they are more likely to try and apply them.
Ooh! He saw gore! Must have known all about WWII! Definitely must have been the Messiah - he imagined the complete future but couldn't do anything about it! We have been waiting for him for hundreds of years to be able to do absolutely nothing! Too bad he is dead and can't do any more nothing to help us!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Only God is omnipotent so only God could have done something about WWII, if He had chosen to do so, but God does not interfere with human free will choices.
What do you think your Christ would have done about it, waved His magic wand and stopped the war? That has never happened before in history and that is why any logical person knows it never will. The other people just go with their fantasies.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
TB talks of logic. I think "logically", there's reasons to believe in the Baha'i Faith and reasons to doubt it. For me, this thread gives me a good reason to doubt it. But that's just me. Maybe the Baha'is are right and there is no such thing as reincarnation and rebirth.
But it is calling the beliefs of two major religions into question. Religions that Baha'is claim are true. Here's Abdul Baha, the son of the prophet talking about reincarnation...
Thou didst write of reincarnation. A belief in reincarnation goeth far back into the ancient history of almost all peoples, and was held even by the philosophers of Greece, the Roman sages, the ancient Egyptians, and the great Assyrians. Nevertheless such superstitions and sayings are but absurdities in the sight of God.
The major argument of the reincarnationists was this, that according to the justice of God, each must receive his due: whenever a man is afflicted with some calamity, for example, this is because of some wrong he hath committed. But take a child that is still in its mother’s womb, the embryo but newly formed, and that child is blind, deaf, lame, defective—what sin hath such a child committed, to deserve its afflictions? They answer that, although to outward seeming the child, still in the womb, is guilty of no sin—nevertheless he perpetrated some wrong when in his previous form, and thus he came to deserve his punishment.
These individuals, however, have overlooked the following point. If creation went forward according to only one rule, how could the all-encompassing Power make Itself felt? How could the Almighty be the One Who “doeth as He pleaseth and ordaineth as He willeth”?1
Briefly, a return is indeed referred to in the Holy Scriptures, but by this is meant the return of the qualities, conditions, effects, perfections, and inner realities of the lights which recur in every dispensation. The reference is not to specific, individual souls and identities.
It may be said, for instance, that this lamplight is last night’s come back again, or that last year’s rose hath returned to the garden this year. Here the reference is not to the individual reality, the fixed identity, the specialized being of that other rose, rather doth it mean that the qualities, the distinctive characteristics of that other light, that other flower, are present now, in these. Those perfections, that is, those graces and gifts of a former springtime are back again this year. We say, for example, that this fruit is the same as last year’s; but we are thinking only of the delicacy, bloom and freshness, and the sweet taste of it; for it is obvious that that impregnable centre of reality, that specific identity, can never return.
I don't know, but I doubt this is how Hindus and Buddhists see it.
What I am saying is that if WWII and holocaust can happen then the Promised Day has not arrived. This Bahaullah is no Messiah at all since his coming has done nothing for humanity except to write huge volumes in flowery, turgid language. When the REAL Messiah appears, a REAL Promised Day will be assured. (BTW thanks very much for not including tons of useless Bahaullah quotes in your last response - I never bother to read them)
Balthazzar
N. Germanic Descent
I hold a similar concept, but this extends as being "born again" in Christian theology. I'll presume we are always in development and our next born again experience comes after the next steps are determined. I'll presume this is based on need according to my unique makeup. Today I live, one day I'll die, and after I die, I'll move on to the next step in my development as a new creation, having been born again.
So, it's neither good or bad, but it will likely be both good and bad after the fact, according to how I process the experiences at that point and the condition of the environment I'm born into. My concept of Nirvana would be one of security, or a haven where safety and happiness is fostered from the environment we're born into. I don't expect a life without struggle or one that doesn't involve further development, though. In my view the Christian scriptures teach that this is the concept of eternal life. Life doesn't stop, but I get to rest and while I rest another one of me gets to live again and continue until it's their time to rest, and a new creation will be born again from them.
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Whateverist
Active Member
I don’t see why rebirth has to be about the preservation of one’s precious ego. E E Cummings is one of my favorite poets and he was a huge fan of rebirth but as a revitalization within one’s lifespan. His father was a pastor in a Unitarian church and William James was a regular guest in their home when he was growing up. Nice to see some Christians embracing him as one of their own.
Art & Theology
Revitalizing the Christian imagination through painting, poetry, music, and more
artandtheology.org
Don't knock it until you try it .. heaven might not be such a bad place ! .. then again .. for the likes of ye .. maybe it will not be such a fun time
har har har.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not say that the Promised Day has arrived. I said that the Promised One has arrived.
The Promised Day has not arrived yet since it takes a long time to build a new world order/kingdom of God on earth.
Baha'u'llah ushered in the new world order/kingdom of God, but it is the job for humans to build it. There is no magic wand that can be waved and fix all the longstanding problems humanity is now facing.
“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.”
I am sorry but you are wrong.
What Baha'ullah wrote and your emotional reaction to it has nothing to do with whether He was the Promised One or not.
What Baha'u'llah wrote contains what will be necessary for Baha'is and others to build a new world order.
The Baha'is are working quietly all over the world to change the world and they have made a lot of progress.
All of the goals set forth by the Baha'i Faith administration have been met. Moreover, the Baha’i Faith has spread to over 250 countries and territories and is almost as widespread as Christianity.
Dream on because that is all you have, a hope and a dream. You, along with the millions of Christians who are still waiting for Jesus to return.
I cannot think of anything that is sadder than millions of people waiting for something that is never going to happen. It is not only sad, it is very detrimental for society, because as things continue to get worse in the world all these people are complacent since they are waiting for Christ or Jesus to return and fix everything that is wrong in the world so they won't have to do anything but wait.
Thanks for making that clear. So Bahaullah's coming has achieved nothing for humanity, except making fantastic claims.
What Bahaullah has written is just regurgitating other people's stuff in more flowery language. It is like writing romance novels and imagining that as great literature. Bahais have built nothing except some big buildings around the world
We will soon see the REAL Christ return perhaps even as early as next year. Bahaullah will be forgotten, even if people like you may desperately cling to him. Hopefully I can remind you at that time.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Did you ever stop to think that there are very few people who actually think that way?