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Is religion dying?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, not dying just changing. Besides, atheism is a kind of religion among activist atheists.
If you include atheism as a religion, you must surely consider theism a religion, and since we are all either one or the other but nobody is both or neither, then yes, religion is not dying if all orientations to gods are a religion. It can only change. In the West, it has been changing from the theistic religion of the Christianity denomination to atheism and nature-based philosophies like New Agism, paganism, and the dharmic religions.
Jehovah our Creator. Very few humans, in comparison to the entire world population, have come to know & worshipped Him.
That's true for all of the gods people believe in, and part of the argument against any of them existing. If a god exists and is discernible, what's the disagreement about? Other discernible things like the sun and the sunburn or tan it might cause are discernible, and there is consensus about these things existing and what they're like. If it's not discernible, why believe it exists?
I think you're lying... go ahead and snap a picture of a little math book that discusses an empty set and shows that it is included as subset of any set. Please also include the page number.
Lying? You can't find that yourself? Tell me what you see here.
Only 1 true claim can be made about an empty set. It's empty. Every derivation showing a null set as a subset is false.
That's two claims, and the second one is ill-formed. The empty set being a subset of every other set including itself is definitional. Perhaps an internally consistent form of set theory that excludes the empty set from sets with elements could be contrived as well, but in the one you are hearing about, it is.
if we have some set A, then a subset of A is some set whose every element is also in A. Note the definition. A subset requires elements to exist in it within the original set.
That's your definition, and it sounds like what I just alluded to - an alternate set theory beginning with different axioms.
Which elements of {} are in common with { 1,2,3 }?
The empty set, which is an element of every set by definition, is common to both.
OK, here is a picture showing an empty set.

Screenshot_20230503_121612.jpg
And it's contained in each larger set. The diagram implies that each circle contains a fourth element withing X and Y that is not a counting number, else there would be no place to overlap, and would be diagrammed as two nonoverlapping circles divided into three compartments each.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
That's two claims, and the second one is ill-formed. The empty set being a subset of every other set including itself is definitional. Perhaps an internally consistent form of set theory that excludes the empty set from sets with elements could be contrived as well, but in the one you are hearing about, it is.

And the claim being made is it is easy to prove and there is evidence everywhere.
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
That's your definition, and it sounds like what I just alluded to - an alternate set theory beginning with different axioms.

Nope. It's not MY defintion. It's THE defintion. You are out of your league here.

Screenshot_20230507_092124.jpg

Go search for the defintion of a subset. Each and every one will require elements. Go and find one that doesn't.

My conclusions are not theory. I am using objective reality. When axioms conflict with objective reality, objective reality wins.
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
And it's contained in each larger set. The diagram implies that each circle contains a fourth element withing X and Y that is not a counting number, else there would be no place to overlap, and would be diagrammed as two nonoverlapping circles divided into three compartments each.

You cropped out an important part of my post!

Screenshot_20230507_091420.jpg

Set X = { 1,3,5,{} } NOT { 1,3,5 }
Set Y = { 2,4,6,{} } NOT { 2,4,6 }

The blue intersection = { {} }.

{ 1,3,5,{} } intersected with { 2,4,6,{} } = { {} }. { {} } is AN empty set not THE empty set.

This is THE empty set:

Screenshot_20230507_073903.jpg

Anyone with eyes can see the difference. {} is unbounded nothingness. { {} } is bounded nothingness.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Again, the concept of "the empty set" is a convenient fiction. Calling it a set does not accurately describe it. It doesn't matter how many people say it, it doesn't matter how many places have it published this way. It doesn't matter how many people teach that it is. The earth is not flat.
What is a convenient fiction? That is math. Math defines things. That is the all purpose of knowing what we mean with the objects we use. Following your line of reasoning, I could infer that everything is a convenient fiction. So, that consideration is anyway useless, if its goal is to expose an internal contradiction deriving from the definition of empty sets. There isn't any.

I think you are complicating things beyond necessity. There is nothing strange about a set with no elements in it. In fact, it is a very simple concept that presents no contradiction whatsoever.

When a person says "the empty set" and they are imagining an "empty box". That is { {} }. Conflating {} with { {} } is a catagory error which is demonstrable. When this happens, the results of the intersection of non-equal sets can be misunderstood as a statement of correspondence between the contents of the non-equal sets when in fact there is NO correspondence. When this happens a false conclusion can be developed about any empty set in that it can contain a property when it cannot.
This is an analogy we use with kids, but it is not what mathematicians have in mind with empty sets. In fact two boxes could be both empty, while being different, while in case of the empty set this is not the case. And empty set is simply a set with no elements, and there cannot possibly two of them.

And who is conflating {} with { {} }? Confusing the two is obviously wrong, for the simple reason that the first contains zero elements, while the second contains one element, and they are therefore necessarily distinct. So, I am not sure where I ever said anything as irrational as that. Can you show me the post? I cannot exclude a typo , or something. Thanks.



The results of this catagory error can be seen when someone accepts a claim about the properties of an empty set as valid. Example: "I have a million dollars in my bank account." Or maybe, slightly more awkward "All the money in my bank account is millions of dollars." Both statements are false if the bank account is empty. But so-called axiomatic logic does not reject these statements as false even though they are contradictions. If a person digs into the logical chains used to develop these false conclusions, they all point to a catagory error where the empty set is misunderstood as a set like any other set that exists which contains elements. The error is easily remedied if the imainged "empty box" is designated with the notation { {} } instead of {}. Then all conclusions developed are true, and there are no contradictions.
Except that nobody is doing that category error. I am pretty confident I never said that {} = { {} }. Because it is obvious that the two sets are different. One has no elements, the other has one element.

Therefore, your conclusions, again, are based on a false premise, and are therefore invalid.

The only side effect of this is, there is no more "vaucous truth". That concept dissappears. There is no more weaseling, and playing word games with the truth. This immoral practice no longer has any logical basis. No moral person should object to this.

Of course there are vacuous truth. If I say that there are no elements in the empty set that looks like Elvis Presley, I state a vacuous truth, because it is indeed the case that there are no elements in the empty set that look like Elvis Presley. That is the truth part. The vacuous part is because the empty set has no element, so it is indeed the case that there is no element in than that satisfy any property.

And what is immoral about that? I think you are conflating logic with morality. Those two things belong to different categories. Conflating them is simply a category error, and therefore fallacious.

Ciao

- viole
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You cropped out an important part of my post!

View attachment 76497

Set X = { 1,3,5,{} } NOT { 1,3,5 }
Set Y = { 2,4,6,{} } NOT { 2,4,6 }

The blue intersection = { {} }.

{ 1,3,5,{} } intersected with { 2,4,6,{} } = { {} }. { {} } is AN empty set not THE empty set.

This is THE empty set:

View attachment 76498

Anyone with eyes can see the difference. {} is unbounded nothingness. { {} } is bounded nothingness.

I can't see as see the difference as for the logic of it. You are playing with cognition. Now I can understand what you say, but I can't see it for {} is unbounded nothingness. { {} } is bounded nothingness.
I can't see abstract concepts. If I am lucky I can understand them.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No. They're not wrong. They're not defining in terms of intersection. The notation is misleading. And the statement needs to be read and understood in its entirety.
That University is wrong? Well, then all universities are wrong. Because that is quite uncontroversial. How can you explain that? Isn't it odd that all students are taught that?

Every nonempty set has at least two subsets, ∅ and itself. The empty set has only one,itself. The empty set is a subset of any other set, but not necessarily an element of it.
Yes, and? How does that invalidate that the empty set is not a subset of itself?

Are you maybe confusing "being element of", with "being subset of"? These are totally different concepts. Confusing them will lead to absurd conclusions.
This MEANS, that the empty set as a subset is not a subset like any other subset that exists.

And? All sets have that property of being unlike any other set. Otherwise they would be the same set. Another example of a vacuous truth, actually.

And does not help you at all, anyway, because it does not invalidate the claim that it is a subset of itself.
Which is quite uncontroversial.


ow would you describe the difference between { A } and {{ A }}? Or even { A,B,C } and { A,B,{C} }? Functionally is there any difference?

The difference between {A} and {{A}} is {A}. While the difference between {A, B, C} and {A, B, {C}}, is {C}. Obviously, since the difference of two sets is the set of elements in the first that are not in the second.

So?

Ciao

- viole
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
What is a convenient fiction? That is math. Math defines things. That is the all purpose of knowing what we mean with the objects we use. Following your line of reasoning, I could infer that everything is a convenient fiction. So, that consideration is anyway useless, if its goal is to expose an internal contradiction deriving from the definition of empty sets. There isn't any.

I think you are complicating things beyond necessity. There is nothing strange about a set with no elements in it. In fact, it is a very simple concept that presents no contradiction whatsoever.


This is an analogy we use with kids, but it is not what mathematicians have in mind with empty sets. In fact two boxes could be both empty, while being different, while in case of the empty set this is not the case. And empty set is simply a set with no elements, and there cannot possibly two of them.

And who is conflating {} with { {} }? Confusing the two is obviously wrong, for the simple reason that the first contains zero elements, while the second contains one element, and they are therefore necessarily distinct. So, I am not sure where I ever said anything as irrational as that. Can you show me the post? I cannot exclude a typo , or something. Thanks.




Except that nobody is doing that category error. I am pretty confident I never said that {} = { {} }. Because it is obvious that the two sets are different. One has no elements, the other has one element.

Therefore, your conclusions, again, are based on a false premise, and are therefore invalid.



Of course there are vacuous truth. If I say that there are no elements in the empty set that looks like Elvis Presley, I state a vacuous truth, because it is indeed the case that there are no elements in the empty set that look like Elvis Presley. That is the truth part. The vacuous part is because the empty set has no element, so it is indeed the case that there is no element in than that satisfy any property.

And what is immoral about that? I think you are conflating logic with morality. Those two things belong to different categories. Conflating them is simply a category error, and therefore fallacious.

Ciao

- viole

The conflation of {} and { {} } happens when words in english are translated in logical notation. And then when the logical notation of the conclusion is translated back into english.

"there are no elements in the empty set that looks like Elvis Presley" is not a vacuous truth. It is true. You are saying there are no elements in an empty set. That is true! It is completely true! There is nothing vacuous about it.

It IS immoral to say "All the Jews I know are ..." If a person doesn't know any Jews. And it IS false. If you don't know any Jews, those Jews that you know don't have beliefs, or non-beliefs. They don't exist.

And NO. All math is NOT a convenient fiction. I can point to a dog and a cat and a moose and a squirell and count them. I can count them again omitting the moose and come up with a different count. That is reality.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
That University is wrong? Well, then all universities are wrong. Because that is quite uncontroversial. How can you explain that? Isn't it odd that all students are taught that?

Flat-earth thinking is irrelevant. And you don't know what all universities are teaching. This is the argument of the morally bankrupt. Again.

Yes, and? How does that invalidate that the empty set is not a subset of itself?

Because in that sentence/paragraph they are saying it is NOT a subset like any other subset.

Are you maybe confusing "being element of", with "being subset of"? These are totally different concepts. Confusing them will lead to absurd conclusions.

Show me 1 absurd conclusion that I made.
Show me 1 official defintion of any other subset which is not describing a correspondence of the elements contained.

And? All sets have that property of being unlike any other set. Otherwise they would be the same set. Another example of a vacuous truth, actually.

Nope, they are all alike in that they contain a collection of elements or objects. But that does not mean "the same". Failed rebuttal. "likeness" =/= "equality".

I am afraid, that is also a non-sequitur. And does not help you at all, because it does not invalidate the claim that it is a subset of itself.
Which is quite uncontroversial.

Sure, since you are describing { {} } = { {} } and { A } = { A } and { B } = { B } ... you're right that is simple and uncontroversial. That's a strawman.

The difference between {A} and {{A}} is {A}. While the difference between {A, B, C} and {A, B, {C}}, is {C}. Obviously, since the difference of two sets is the set of elements in the first that are not in the second.

Wait. "the difference of two sets is the set of elements in the first that are not in the second."

{ A } isn't in {{ A }}????

The difference between {A} and {{A}} is {A}

the difference of two sets is the set of elements in the first that are not in the second.

Ummm.... something is wrong here.

Let's try this a little differently.

What is the union of { A } and { A }? Is it {{ A }}?

This is intended to show that {} is being conflated with { {} }.
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Flat-earth thinking is irrelevant. And you don't know what all universities are teaching. This is the argument of the morally bankrupt. Again.
What we are dealing with here has nothing to do with morality. Math is amoral. Shooting a kid in the face is a different wrong from 2+2=5.

Because in that sentence/paragraph they are saying it is NOT a subset like any other subset.
And? As I said, every set is unlike any other set. And even if that was relevant, it is not clear how it invalidates its self containment.
In fact. It doesn't.

Show me 1 absurd conclusion that I made.
Show me 1 official defintion of any other subset which is not describing a correspondence of the elements contained.
If you ask me that, then it is really the case that you confuse "belonging to", with "being a subset of".
Is that so? How can it be? They are totally different concepts.

We need to be certain about this point, since it would make any further discussion pointless, otherwise.

Nope, they are all alike in that they contain a collection of elements or objects. But that does not mean "the same". Failed rebuttal. "likeness" =/= "equality".

Non empty sets are that. You seem to believe that only non empty sets are sets. Which is clearly false, since empty sets are defined to be sets, too.

ure, since you are describing { {} } = { {} } and { A } = { A } and { B } = { B } ... you're right that is simple and uncontroversial. That's a strawman.
I am not doing anything of the sort. So, please tell me when or where I ever say that, and I will correct it. Must have been a typo, if I did.
Saying that, is the equivalent of saying that 1=0. Which is obviously silly.

However, {A} = {A}. Trivially. But that does not entail that {} = { {} }, because those are two sets with a different number of elements in them, and therefore are different. So, I am not really sure what your point is.

You look, with all due respect, terribly confused.

{ A } isn't in {{ A }}????
Yes it is. If you mean "belonging to". If you mean "subset of", then it isn't. That is why you should not confuse the two concepts.

Why?

The difference between {A} and {{A}} is {A}

the difference of two sets is the set of elements in the first that are not in the second.

Ummm.... something is wrong here.
Of course there is something wrong here. But it is not in the math :)

Let's try this a little differently.

What is the union of { A } and { A }? Is it {{ A }}?

Nope. It is {A}. The union of two sets is the set containing the elements, If any, contained in either of them. So, since the two sets contain only A, the union is {A}. In fact, union is idempotent. The union of a set with itself gives that set. For all sets. Also for trivial reasons.

This is intended to show that {} is being conflated with { {} }.

And I wonder how. Maybe you can illustrate it for us. You will become famous, by proving all those Universities to be wrong.

Ciao

- viole
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
What we are dealing with here has nothing to do with morality. Math is amoral. Shooting a kid in the face is a different wrong from 2+2=5.

I'm talking about dishonesty and being sneaky. That is immoral. I am not talking about murder.

And? As I said, every set is unlike any other set. And even if that was relevant, it is not clear how it invalidates its self containment.
In fact. It doesn't.

Not all sets are opposites of each other. {} is the opposite of every set when it is derived from objective reality.

If you ask me that, then it is really the case that you confuse "belonging to", with "being a subset of".
Is that so? How can it be? They are totally different concepts.

No I am not confusing those. I am talking about something which by definition cannot belong to anything or be a subset of anything. It can only belong to or be contained in something in approximation. The empty set as it is actually derived is neither of those things.

We need to be certain about this point, since it would make any further discussion pointless, otherwise.

It has been addressed.

Non empty sets are that. You seem to believe that only non empty sets are sets. Which is clearly false, since empty sets are defined to be sets, too.

If they are defind as "sets" their definition does not match the behavior of any other set that exists.

I am not doing anything of the sort. So, please tell me when or where I ever say that, and I will correct it. Must have been a typo, if I did.
Saying that, is the equivalent of saying that 1=0. Which is obviously silly.

OK, here's 1.

You seem to believe that having a set with no elements elements, does not grant making statements about them.

For every element of the empty set, the property P holds.

OK. How many elements are in the empty set? {} has zero elements. { {} } has 1 element. If you are claiming a property holds, you cannot be talking about {}. You must be taking about { {} }, or {{ {} }}, or {{{ {} }}}....

I already said this, and you had no rebuttal. Anytime you speak about what {} contains, that is conflating {} with { {} }.

Then there's this:

Q: What is the intersection of sets A and B?
A: A set
Q: What does that set contain?
A: All the elements, if any, that are common in A and B
Q: Can the result be an empty set?
A: Sure. if the two sets have no elements in common
Q: What if A is the empty set, and B is arbitrary?
A: Nothing. The definition still applies
Q: Will, in that case, the resulting set have elements?
A: Nope. Since if it had even one, it would be common with A, which is empty. And that would be absurd
Q: So, the result is an empty set, too. As in the case of not empty sets with no elements in common?
A: Of course

You said: "Can the result be an empty set" An empty set = { {} }.
Then a few statements later you switched to "the empty set". Then in the conclusion you switch back to "an empty set". You can see it yourself. I bolded them.

This is inconsisent. Yes, if a person simply ignores how to derive an empty set, and instead claims that every set has an empty set in it, which also doesn't match reality, then they can be loose and free to say an empty set and the empty set inconsistently.

However, {A} = {A}. Trivially, since they both contain one element, and that element is the same in both. But that does not entail that {} = { {} }, because those are two sets with a different number of elements in them. So, I am not really sure what your point is.

My point is, the words "the empty set" as it is defined by axiomatic set theory is actually { {} } not {} because the empty set is actually the intersection of non-equal sets.

You look, with all due respect, terribly confused.

Nah.

Yes it is. If you mean "belonging to". If you mean "subset of", then. it isn't. That is why you should not confuse the two.

That is not how it is defined. That does not match reality.

This is the definition I am working of off. It matches reality. If you have another, from something other than your own construction, please bring it.

Screenshot_20230507_092124.jpg


You said it, not me.

The difference between {A} and {{A}} is {A}. While the difference between {A, B, C} and {A, B, {C}}, is {C}. Obviously, since the difference of two sets is the set of elements in the first that are not in the second.

So, which is it? Is the difference of two sets the elements that are in the first and not in the second or not? If so, what YOU said above is incorrect. YOU said "The difference between {A} and {{A}} is {A}". But according to what you said, it should be {}? Correct?

Of course there is something wrong here. But it is not in the math :)

Correct, the axiom is wrong, it doesn't match reality and it doesn't produce true conclusions. These axioms are not really "math" they are more like a religion.

Nope. It is {A}. The union of two sets is the set containing the elements, If any, contained in both. So, since the two sets contain only A, the union is {A}.

Excellent. That's what I thought too.

So, it really doesn't matter how many curly brackets there are when evaluating a non-empty set?

{ A } union with { A } = { A }
{{ A }} union with {{ A }} = { A }?

It's the same with the intersection too, correct?

{ A } intersected with { A } = { A }
{{ A }} intersected with {{ A }} = { A }?

And { A,B,C } = { A,B,{C} }?
And { A,B,C } = { A,B,{{C}} }?

Is { A } a subset of {{ A }}?
Is {{ A }} a subset of { A }?

And I wonder how. Maybe you can illustrate it for us. You will become famous, by proving all those Universities to be wrong.

I'm working on it... Please answer the above?
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I'm talking about dishonesty and being sneaky. That is immoral. I am not talking about murder.
And do you think that whoever says that the empty set is a subset of itself, is like that?

Not all sets are opposites of each other. {} is the opposite of every set when it is derived from objective reality.
That is meaningless word salad. You are confusing philosophy, and things like objective reality, whatever that is, with set theory. And in doing that, you commit a category error.

The empty set is like any other set, it just has the least amount of members. Zero.

No I am not confusing those. I am talking about something which by definition cannot belong to anything or be a subset of anything. It can only belong to or be contained in something in approximation. The empty set as it is actually derived is neither of those things.
Ok, let's check it out, if that is really true.

If they are defind as "sets" their definition does not match the behavior of any other set that exists.
What is a set that exists? Again, you are confusing ontology (philosophy) with math. Which is a category error.
The set of Walt Disney characters contains Mickey Mouse. Doer that set exist?

OK, here's 1.
Where?

OK. How many elements are in the empty set? {} has zero elements. { {} } has 1 element. If you are claiming a property holds, you cannot be talking about {}. You must be taking about { {} }, or {{ {} }}, or {{{ {} }}}....
Nope, why? I can easily talk about a property held by the elements of a set, without knowing if that set is empty or not.
For example: all members of the set that contains even numbers greater than 2 that are not the sum of two prime numbers, consists of even numbers.

This is obviously true, but that set could very well be empty, because we do not know if there are even numbers that cannot be written as the sum of two prime numbers.

So, this is another non sequitur of yours.

You said: "Can the result be an empty set" An empty set = { {} }.
That is not an empty set. Because it contains one element.

Then a few statements later you switched to "the empty set". Then in the conclusion you switch back to "an empty set". You can see it yourself. I bolded them.

This is inconsisent. Yes, if a person simply ignores how to derive an empty set, and instead claims that every set has an empty set in it, which also doesn't match reality, then they can be loose and free to say an empty set and the empty set inconsistently.
Of course, that conclusion is immediately invalidated by the fact that { {} }, is not the empty set. And I never claimed it to be.

My point is, the words "the empty set" as it is defined by axiomatic set theory is actually { {} } not {} because the empty set is actually the intersection of non-equal sets.
This is clearly wrong. For {{}} contains one element, and even in axiomatic theory the empty set does not contain any element.
So, if you have read that from some source, it would be nice to see where you read that nonsense from.

That is not how it is defined. That does not match reality.
What is not defined that does not match reality? And why do you still conflate ontology with set theory?

So, which is it? Is the difference of two sets the elements that are in the first and not in the second or not? If so, what YOU said above is incorrect. YOU said "The difference between {A} and {{A}} is {A}". But according to what you said, it should be {}? Correct?

No. Why? The difference between {A} and {{A}} is {A}, because A is not a member of {{A}}. {{A}} contains the only element {A}, which is different from A, which is the only element contained in {A}.

Therefore, A is in {A}, but not in {{A}}, and the conclusion follows from the definition of difference.

Correct, the axiom is wrong, it doesn't match reality and it doesn't produce true conclusions. These axioms are not really "math" they are more like a religion.
Which is something you still have to prove. Until now, all your conclusions are just consequences of either false premises, or non sequiturs.

Excellent. That's what I thought too.
Congrats.

{ A } union with { A } = { A }
{{ A }} union with {{ A }} = { A }?
The first true, the second false. {{A}} union with {{A}} is {{A}}.

{ A } intersected with { A } = { A }
{{ A }} intersected with {{ A }} = { A }?
The first true, the second false. {{A}} intersected with {{A}} is {{A}}.

Is {{ A }} a subset of { A }?
Clearly not.

Is { A } a subset of {{ A }}?
Clearly not.


I'm working on it...
I hope you indulge me, if I do not hold my breath.

Ciao

- viole
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
And do you think that whoever says that the empty set is a subset of itself is like that?

Someone saying "All the Jews I know are ... " when they know they don't know any is an immoral person. And when they are caught doing it and cannot admit it, is a really immoral person. And a person who uses so-called logic to justify their lie, is basically a criminal.

That is meaningless word salad. You are confusing philosophy, and things like objective reality, whatever that is, with set theory. And in doing that, you commit a category error.

You don't know what is objective reality? You cannot tell the difference between fact and fiction? No wonder.... That is the definition of psychotic.

The empty set is like any other set, it just has the least amount of members. Zero.

Nope. I've shown it numerous times.

What is a set that exists? Again, you are confusing ontology (philosophy) with math. Which is a category error.
The set that contains Walt Disney characters contains Mickey Mouse. Doer that set exist?

Yes. But you can't say anything true about them. Mickey Mouse does not ACTUALLY have a dog named pluto. Mickey Mouse is not ACTUALLY the apprentice to a wizard.


Right here:

Screenshot_20230507_122909.jpg

So, again, you are making a claim about properties of a set that is supposed to have elements. But it has no elements. That means you CANNOT be talking about the empty set what HAS NO ELEMENTS.

Nope, why? I can easily talk about a property held by the elements of a set, without knowing if that set is empty or not.

But if you KNOW it's empty, then it is a lie.

For example: all members of the set that contains even numbers greater than 2 that are not the sum of two prime numbers, consists of even numbers.

Irrelevant.

This is obviously true, but that set could very well be empty, because we do not know if there are even numbers that cannot be written as the sum of two prime numbers.

Listen to you. "I don't know if it's true or false" in your world means "it's obviously true". This is exactly what I was talking about.

"It can't be proven false" =/= "it is obviously true".

That is not an empty set. Because it contains one element.

Ya know what, you're right. If there is an inconsistency, it's not there.

Of course, that conclusion is immediately invalidated by the fact that { {} }, is not the empty set.

OK, that's true.

This is clearly wrong. For {{}} contains one element, and even in axiomatic theory the empty set does not contain any element.
So, if you have read that from some source, it would be nice to see where you read that nonsense from.

Agreed. I concede that point. You did not flip-flop-flip in the story you told. But you did flip-flop when claiming a property holds for an element of an empty set. Since the empty set, as you have repeatedly asserted has no elements.

What is not defined that does not match reality? And why do you still conflate ontology with set theory?

Why? YOU are the one who is trying to making claims about reality based on this so-called logic. If you want, we can end this debate very simply. Just confirm that you do not care about what is true or false, you will say whatever you want, and it doesn't matter if it's logical becuase logic is not related or connected to reality.

Now. An empty set, is not a set. That is not reality. An empty set is not a subset of all sets. That is not reality. An empty set does not obtain all properties. That is not reality. If it's not proven false, it must be true, is not reality.


No. Why? The difference between {A} and {{A}} is {A}, because A is not a member of {{A}}. {{A}} contains the only element {A}, which is different from A, which is the only element contained in {A}.

Is this true? "the difference of two sets is the set of elements in the first that are not in the second" ??

Is { A } a subset of itself? I think it is. { A } = { A } which means it must be a subset of itself. Which means { A } is an element of { A }.

If { A } is an element of { A } and { A } is an element of {{ A }}, then what is the element of { A } that is not in {{ A }}?
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
This is a really good read. It came from Quora, it's Pro empty-set as a set, Pro empty-set as a subset, and Pro empty-set as obtaining all attributes. It explains how any why this is accepted. Accurately calls it motivated reasoning. The definitions are forcing a desired result. And then at the end it gives a little credibility to people like me who are arguing against it.

One of the most important elements of this write-up that I haven't read before is, the claims that are considered true, the vacuous truths, are actually all implications in the form of If ... then ... But, no one seems to speak that way because it's awkward. But leaving out the IF in the statement in english communicates confidence which does not match the method of reasoning. It implies truth, when there isn't really any truth at all.

Here it is, emphasis mine. I certainly don't agree with all that's said here. But I think this does a good job of explaining the reasoning for accepting something unproven-as-false as true.

Why does the empty set or null set or void set (Φ) satisfies every property, every theorem, etc. in the set theory, topology?

The reason is actually quite fundamental. And make no mistake, this is a good question.

After all, might it be unsettling the concept of even implying something from nothingness?

Well, the reasoning is that it creates a whole lot more eloquent type of math. In mathematical logic, we try to formalize mathematical reasoning in terms of new constructs(that may use a very tiny amount of basic mathematics).

So, math is based on a whole lot more ‘absolute’ type reasoning. It will be clear what I mean by this as we go on.

In logic, there is a concept of ‘implication’. The idea that, some statement follows from another. We can consider whether the truthhood of whether it follows or not itself.

But, it is a bit unclear on what we mean ‘follows from’. So, we take a different approach to the concept of ‘implication’ in mathematics, in that we fix a property we certainly want.

We certainly don’t want false things to follow from true things
. That will immediately get some things wrong, a rather serious crime.

So, in our mathematical logic, we will have an implication that is more ‘absolute’, called the ‘material conditional’ written p→q, where p and q represent sentences that can be evaluated as true or false, resepctively called the ‘antecedent’ and ‘consequent’, and, we will say p→q is false if p is true and q is false.

We also want to be able to make use of the fact it is an implication, which mean true things should follow from true things, in other words, we set p→q to true when both p and q are true.

Now, how about when p is false? Well, it is a lot more dependent on the statement p, then, in normal everyday logic. If I for instance say “If 2+2=52+2=5 then humans are living things”, clearly the ‘antecedent’ statement is false, and the ‘consequent’ one is true, however it is unclear how the consequent is deduced from the antecedent. Similar story when q is false. But, if I were to say “If a+b=a+b+1 then 0=1”, then it would be sensical to say this is true. The thing is, we clearly will encounter the second result more then the second, and, in that it does make, in some sense, to say in both of these cases, it is false. The reason for this is to create a simpler, more elegant system. Were it to be true, we would neglect these very important examples. Moreover, it would actually just reduce to the same logical idea as ‘and’, which we clearly don’t want.

We will now prove a very important result, the ‘principle of explosion’. It is in this sense, that we motivate our decision.

Suppose we derive a contradiction, p and ¬p. Then, it follows p and q is also true, for p is. However, since ¬p, then it follows q. So, from contradiction, anything follows. That is, whatever q is, it doesn’t matter, we have properly derived q from falsehood. Of course, falsehood isn’t necessarily contradiction, but certainly to be accurate, should include the case where the falsehood is due to contradiction, that the principle of explosion follows.

Hence, in this sense, the material conditional will be set true for false antecedents. This is called ‘vacuous truth’.

Another good way to think about this is that an ‘implication’ really serves as a promise for what will happen if something happens. So, if p is false, then regardless of what happens with respect to q, the requirements for my promise aren’t met and so my promise should still hold.

Why do we even want to introduce the empty set ∅? Same reasoning, it is to create a more complete system. Sets may be disjoint. They quite frequently are. If we restricted our set theoretic ideas to that of only objects to which there is at least one element, then what would result is we would constantly have to tip toe around the issue they may be disjoint. There is no harm for the existing nonempty sets in introducing operations with the empty set, and it creates a certain ‘closure’ to everything.

In topology, for instance, we may want to speak in general that the intersection of open sets is open. However, the intersection may actually be nonexistent. Certainly, we would lose a lot of elegance in having to say ‘if all sets with each other have existing intersection, then the intersection of such is another open set’. Gross. And while this doesn’t look bad, the complexities can exemplify when proving theorems.

Now, what actually results when we do this?

For instance, let us say A is a subset of B if for all x, x∈A→x∈B (most math papers just write this as ‘if … then… ‘ and understand that to mean a more mathematical form, but I will emphasize here the difference). Now, the problem is, I might have to actually specify “if A and B are nonempty, then…” to restrict it to cases where there exists value such that x∈A be true. However, if we allow empty sets, then we can account for all scenarios by saying the empty set is a subset.

So, the reason the empty set more or less satisfies every property and theorem in one form is it makes a more complete whole in simplicity of rules. Since the empty set is defined as that which the statement ‘x∈A' is false for all x, it follows additionally from the material conditional, the theorem follows on whatever implication since the antecedent is false.

Sure, some people might argue until they are blue in the face that you can’t actually deduce from that of falsehood, or that the empty set doesn’t actually exist, and interesting routes can be pushed in that direction, but it only hampers the ability to prove mathematical theorems into which the philosophical notice really doesn’t matter.

So there you have it. There's real valid arguments that can be made that the empty set isn't a set. And the empty set is only "called" a subset. It's not really a subset. And all of this is motivated reasoning based on pushing truth from a false premise. But as long as truthful conclusions are drawn from it, it should be fine. Otherwise, this author agrees, that is a "rather serious crime". Their exact words.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Someone saying "All the Jews I know are ... " when they know they don't know any is an immoral person. And when they are caught doing it and cannot admit it, is a really immoral person. And a person who uses so-called logic to justify their lie, is basically a criminal.
As we have seen, the statement is true. Therefore, moral considerations are irrelevant. But if that consoles you, it is also true that all Jews I know believe in God.

You don't know what is objective reality? You cannot tell the difference between fact and fiction? No wonder.... That is the definition of psychotic.
What I am saying is that this is subject of philosophy. And you will find several debates here about the subject of what constitutes reality.

However, that is irrelevant here because we are defining mathematical entities.
Nope. I've shown it numerous times.
You can show it is much as you want, but that is it is how it is defined. Therefore, saying that something is not how it has been defined is absurd. Your job is to show that this definition leads to internal contradictions, which you failed to achieve.

Yes. But you can't say anything true about them. Mickey Mouse does not ACTUALLY have a dog named pluto. Mickey Mouse is not ACTUALLY the apprentice to a wizard.
Of course I can say something true about them. For instance, that they are all fruits of the imagination of Walt Disney. Or that Mickey Mouse represents a talking mouse.

Therefore, also this rebuttal fails scrutiny immediately, on account of obvious counter examples.

Listen to you. "I don't know if it's true or false" in your world means "it's obviously true". This is exactly what I was talking about.

"It can't be proven false" =/= "it is obviously true".
We don't know whether the set of those numbers is empty or not, because we don't know if there are even numbers greater than two which are not the sum of two prime numbers. It is an unresolved mathematical statement.

If we prove that there aren't any, then that set would be empty. If not, it would not be empty. That set is well defined, but we just don't know if it contains elements or not. That does not in any way imply that not knowing if it's empty or not, allows me to conclude that it is not empty, or empty. I wonder how you can make such inferences.

But it is the case, that either way, all members of that set will be even. Even if the set is empty. And if it is empty, all its members would be odd, too. On account of simple principles of logic.


Agreed. I concede that point. You did not flip-flop-flip in the story you told. But you did flip-flop when claiming a property holds for an element of an empty set. Since the empty set, as you have repeatedly asserted has no elements.
All elements of the empty set fulfill any property. Because there is no element in that set that does not fulfills it, on account of the empty set not having any element at all. So, for the law of the excluded middle, the first statement obtains.

Why? YOU are the one who is trying to making claims about reality based on this so-called logic. If you want, we can end this debate very simply. Just confirm that you do not care about what is true or false, you will say whatever you want, and it doesn't matter if it's logical becuase logic is not related or connected to reality.

Now. An empty set, is not a set. That is not reality. An empty set is not a subset of all sets. That is not reality. An empty set does not obtain all properties. That is not reality. If it's not proven false, it must be true, is not reality.
Of course it is a set. It is defined like that. If you do not agree with that, you have to find a contradiction arising from its definition, which you have failed to obtain. Something like "jsdkj is green and not green", which is obviously a definition that entails a contradiction. Again, for the law of the excluded middle, which is a principle of logic.

Objective reality has nothing to do with that. In fact, set theory can serve to make statements about objective reality that obtains in nature. For instance, the set of all pigs that can fly is empty. Which is perfectly true and not contradictory. At least on this planet.

Is this true? "the difference of two sets is the set of elements in the first that are not in the second" ??
Yes, it is one of the definitions.

s { A } a subset of itself? I think it is. { A } = { A } which means it must be a subset of itself. Which means { A } is an element of { A }.
Nope. You said you do not confuse the relationship "belongs to" with "being subset of", but you are doing exactly that.

{A} is indeed a subset of {A}. But the last inference is wrong. It is not the case that {A} is an element of {A}. What is true is that A is an element of {A}. A is an element, not necessarily a set, while {A} is a set (containing A).

One set that would have {A} as element is { {A} }.

You really have to be sure about this point, because confusing the two leads to category errors, and therefore invalidates the reliability of your conclusions.

If { A } is an element of { A } and { A } is an element of {{ A }}, then what is the element of { A } that is not in {{ A }}?
{A} is not an element of {A}. So, your first premise is false, and that renders the rest of the question meaningless.

Ciao

- viole
 
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