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Is religion just a protracted daydream?

Tomef

Well-Known Member
Casting our minds out to try and picture the unknown or invisible seems to be a natural human activity. We all wonder about what other people think and feel about us. Under pressure or expectation we can project catastrophe or pleasure into possible futures. This ability presumably started with early humans wondering about things they couldn’t see - the future, how a planned hunt might play out, what some other group of people in the next valley might be doing.

However developed, feats of imagination are intrinsically human, whether highly developed in creative arts or second by second wondering about the minutiae of life. Earlier generations of humans saw life and spirit wherever they saw movement, in water and the wind, or growth and stature, in trees and mountains. After settling in cities, they dedicated these new living spaces to a god, but recognised other gods. As empires formed, the need for a god big enough to cover all that territory, and maybe for a means of dominance and control over lesser gods, eventually evolved into the notion of a universal, omnipresent deity. We imagined gods and god into existence, partly as a way of explaining the world perhaps but also because we just seem to need to do that, to project our imaginations outward as a way of feeling our way towards the future, and understanding the present.

Fewer people hold on to traditional religious beliefs, as time moves on, but most still seem to want or have some kind of ‘spiritual’ belief, as with this piece of research: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-m...email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_aboutus
In other quarters, what has been within certain circles a very reductionist reaction against spiritual belief seems to be coming round to a broader acknowledgment of the need people have for something of this sort. Whether it is thought of as spiritual or in some other way doesn’t seem important; there is, though, a need intrinsic to being human to imagine and to attempt to predict and understand the future and the present, whether it’s about what another person feels about us, or our personal ambitions, or whatever. It seems important to recognise that activity as something common to us all that isn’t so easily quantified, and maybe doesn’t need to be. The more extreme people I’ve come across, who believe everything is reducible to some bland set of material interactions, seem to me to be lacking some essentially human quality. At the other extreme are people who insist that life is meaningless without a belief in their particular religion.

If we can dream up gods, though, and even live for millennia with the belief that these imaginary creations give meaning to human life, why should imagination stop there? If my imaged world, the things I think of as having value, daydream and think and feel about, has meaning for me, in what way is that any different to belief in a religion or god? We do seem to be living in a time when the imperative for such thoughts and feelings to be shackled to some particular religious text or group is losing ground, Maybe being an Ubermensch just means recognising that your imaged life is just as loaded as any religion with the power to give life meaning and purpose.
 

Ignatius A

Well-Known Member
Casting our minds out to try and picture the unknown or invisible seems to be a natural human activity. We all wonder about what other people think and feel about us. Under pressure or expectation we can project catastrophe or pleasure into possible futures. This ability presumably started with early humans wondering about things they couldn’t see - the future, how a planned hunt might play out, what some other group of people in the next valley might be doing.

However developed, feats of imagination are intrinsically human, whether highly developed in creative arts or second by second wondering about the minutiae of life. Earlier generations of humans saw life and spirit wherever they saw movement, in water and the wind, or growth and stature, in trees and mountains. After settling in cities, they dedicated these new living spaces to a god, but recognised other gods. As empires formed, the need for a god big enough to cover all that territory, and maybe for a means of dominance and control over lesser gods, eventually evolved into the notion of a universal, omnipresent deity. We imagined gods and god into existence, partly as a way of explaining the world perhaps but also because we just seem to need to do that, to project our imaginations outward as a way of feeling our way towards the future, and understanding the present.

Fewer people hold on to traditional religious beliefs, as time moves on, but most still seem to want or have some kind of ‘spiritual’ belief, as with this piece of research: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-m...email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_aboutus
In other quarters, what has been within certain circles a very reductionist reaction against spiritual belief seems to be coming round to a broader acknowledgment of the need people have for something of this sort. Whether it is thought of as spiritual or in some other way doesn’t seem important; there is, though, a need intrinsic to being human to imagine and to attempt to predict and understand the future and the present, whether it’s about what another person feels about us, or our personal ambitions, or whatever. It seems important to recognise that activity as something common to us all that isn’t so easily quantified, and maybe doesn’t need to be. The more extreme people I’ve come across, who believe everything is reducible to some bland set of material interactions, seem to me to be lacking some essentially human quality. At the other extreme are people who insist that life is meaningless without a belief in their particular religion.

If we can dream up gods, though, and even live for millennia with the belief that these imaginary creations give meaning to human life, why should imagination stop there? If my imaged world, the things I think of as having value, daydream and think and feel about, has meaning for me, in what way is that any different to belief in a religion or god? We do seem to be living in a time when the imperative for such thoughts and feelings to be shackled to some particular religious text or group is losing ground, Maybe being an Ubermensch just means recognising that your imaged life is just as loaded as any religion with the power to give life meaning and purpose.
People do hold onto "spiritual" beliefs like the belief that if you have a penis and believe you're a woman then you actually are a woman.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
There's a lot to unpack in your post, @Tomef - enough that I'm not sure where to start. The general narrative you present is sometimes broadly true, and other times less so. One might say it is a sort of mythology you have woven here - something that speaks to the truths and values of some persons and acts as a guide for life and living.

Just so speak as someone reconstructing indigenous religion, I'm not sure I would say that I imagined any of the gods into existence. I didn't imagine Sun into existence, nor Moon, nor Rain, nor Creativity, nor Air or Land or War or any of the other innumerable aspects of reality that are greater than I and thus can be deemed worthy of worship if one wishes to do so. For me acknowledging the gods are a thing is far less about projecting anything outwards than acknowledging the simple fact that there are higher powers all around us and that these are worthy of due respect and understanding. I (nor our ancestors, probably) do not need to "explain the world" as much as understand my place in it and the relationships I have with other-than-human powers.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Casting our minds out to try and picture the unknown or invisible seems to be a natural human activity. We all wonder about what other people think and feel about us. Under pressure or expectation we can project catastrophe or pleasure into possible futures. This ability presumably started with early humans wondering about things they couldn’t see - the future, how a planned hunt might play out, what some other group of people in the next valley might be doing.

However developed, feats of imagination are intrinsically human, whether highly developed in creative arts or second by second wondering about the minutiae of life. Earlier generations of humans saw life and spirit wherever they saw movement, in water and the wind, or growth and stature, in trees and mountains. After settling in cities, they dedicated these new living spaces to a god, but recognised other gods. As empires formed, the need for a god big enough to cover all that territory, and maybe for a means of dominance and control over lesser gods, eventually evolved into the notion of a universal, omnipresent deity. We imagined gods and god into existence, partly as a way of explaining the world perhaps but also because we just seem to need to do that, to project our imaginations outward as a way of feeling our way towards the future, and understanding the present.

Fewer people hold on to traditional religious beliefs, as time moves on, but most still seem to want or have some kind of ‘spiritual’ belief, as with this piece of research: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-m...email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_aboutus
In other quarters, what has been within certain circles a very reductionist reaction against spiritual belief seems to be coming round to a broader acknowledgment of the need people have for something of this sort. Whether it is thought of as spiritual or in some other way doesn’t seem important; there is, though, a need intrinsic to being human to imagine and to attempt to predict and understand the future and the present, whether it’s about what another person feels about us, or our personal ambitions, or whatever. It seems important to recognise that activity as something common to us all that isn’t so easily quantified, and maybe doesn’t need to be. The more extreme people I’ve come across, who believe everything is reducible to some bland set of material interactions, seem to me to be lacking some essentially human quality. At the other extreme are people who insist that life is meaningless without a belief in their particular religion.

If we can dream up gods, though, and even live for millennia with the belief that these imaginary creations give meaning to human life, why should imagination stop there? If my imaged world, the things I think of as having value, daydream and think and feel about, has meaning for me, in what way is that any different to belief in a religion or god? We do seem to be living in a time when the imperative for such thoughts and feelings to be shackled to some particular religious text or group is losing ground, Maybe being an Ubermensch just means recognising that your imaged life is just as loaded as any religion with the power to give life meaning and purpose.
I think God or people that are in people's minds and Imaginations can be and are just as real as people out here in the waking world.

Only problem I see is where some people confuse that realm, with the realm of the waking world, which is completely different and separate as it relates to the characters, people , or gods that you may or may not meet in your mind.

I've had several lucid dreams where I met many people and they are just as real, influential and meaningful as anybody out here, but I keep it in context and realize that the realm in my mind is my own and nobody else's, and the realm out here in the waking world , is where everybody shares common experiences but will have nothing to do with the world's people live and dwell in within their cerebellum.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
I didn't imagine Sun into existence, nor Moon, nor Rain, nor Creativity, nor Air or Land or War or any of the other innumerable aspects of reality that are greater than I and thus can be deemed worthy of worship if one wishes to do so. For me acknowledging the gods are a thing is far less about projecting anything outwards than acknowledging the simple fact that there are higher powers all around us and that these are worthy of due respect and understanding.
I hadn’t thought about it like that, acknowledging greater powers without anthropomorphising, if I’ve understood you right. I read an interview with neuroscientist Christof Koch recently where he talks a lot about panpsychism, I suppose that is related. Understanding other entities on their own terms. If we can.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
If we can dream up gods, though, and even live for millennia with the belief that these imaginary creations give meaning to human life, why should imagination stop there? If my imaged world, the things I think of as having value, daydream and think and feel about, has meaning for me, in what way is that any different to belief in a religion or god? We do seem to be living in a time when the imperative for such thoughts and feelings to be shackled to some particular religious text or group is losing ground, Maybe being an Ubermensch just means recognising that your imaged life is just as loaded as any religion with the power to give life meaning and purpose.
Yes, there is a connection as you so rightfully intuited Tomef, we generally daydream in the Alpha brainwave state, which is the bridge between the Beta awake mind state and Theta dream mind state. For example, we have all experienced dreams where we were flying, being in exotic places, other weirdness, etc.. When you wake up, you remember the dream and generally believe that it was 'you' having the dream, you may tell your friend, "I had this weird dream....". But if one reflects deeply on it, 'you', ie.. the personal 'I' self, ie., Beta brainwave awake state, was not present, it was asleep, only the Theta asleep mind's state was active. The Theta mind state is not the 'you'/'I' of the Beta brainwave awake mind state awareness, it is just that when one awakes, the Alpha 'you'/'I' mind state is now active/aware and accesses the memory of the Theta mind's dream awareness and subsequently claims that it had experienced such and such in the dream, whereas it did not, it was not functioning, it did not arise.

Now meditation is always practiced by serious religious practitioners, and the name of the game is to still the mind, stilling the mind means stilling the Alpha brainwave mind state, which in turn means the 'I' mind is either dulled or does not arise, and awareness shifts to the Beta daydreaming state mind or to the Theta dream state mind. It is in these deeper mind states that awareness shifts from 3D awake state activity to contemplative 'out of body' type awareness that is not governed by the constraints of 3D reality as experienced by the human body in the awake state and/or studied by science.

Until and unless students of both science and religion understand that our minds can and do 'shift gears' depending on our mind state's awareness. So the scientific Beta awake state awareness is incapable of apprehending the religious 'spiritual' non 3D reality, nor can the religious meditative Theta/Beta mind awareness states limit itself to the constraints of 3D reality as experienced by the human body in the awake state and/or studied by science.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
Yes, there is a connection as you so rightfully intuited Tomef, we generally daydream in the Alpha brainwave state, which is the bridge between the Beta awake mind state and Theta dream mind state. For example, we have all experienced dreams where we were flying, being in exotic places, other weirdness, etc.. When you wake up, you remember the dream and generally believe that it was 'you' having the dream, you may tell your friend, "I had this weird dream....". But if one reflects deeply on it, 'you', ie.. the personal 'I' self, ie., Beta brainwave awake state, was not present, it was asleep, only the Theta asleep mind's state was active. The Theta mind state is not the 'you'/'I' of the Beta brainwave awake mind state awareness, it is just that when one awakes, the Alpha 'you'/'I' mind state is now active/aware and accesses the memory of the Theta mind's dream awareness and subsequently claims that it had experienced such and such in the dream, whereas it did not, it was not functioning, it did not arise.

Now meditation is always practiced by serious religious practitioners, and the name of the game is to still the mind, stilling the mind means stilling the Alpha brainwave mind state, which in turn means the 'I' mind is either dulled or does not arise, and awareness shifts to the Beta daydreaming state mind or to the Theta dream state mind. It is in these deeper mind states that awareness shifts from 3D awake state activity to contemplative 'out of body' type awareness that is not governed by the constraints of 3D reality as experienced by the human body in the awake state and/or studied by science.

Until and unless students of both science and religion understand that our minds can and do 'shift gears' depending on our mind state's awareness. So the scientific Beta awake state awareness is incapable of apprehending the religious 'spiritual' non 3D reality, nor can the religious meditative Theta/Beta mind awareness states limit itself to the constraints of 3D reality as experienced by the human body in the awake state and/or studied by science.
That’s really interesting, thanks.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I hadn’t thought about it like that, acknowledging greater powers without anthropomorphising, if I’ve understood you right. I read an interview with neuroscientist Christof Koch recently where he talks a lot about panpsychism, I suppose that is related. Understanding other entities on their own terms. If we can.
It's fairly common in polytheistic and animistic religious traditions. When telling stories, we'll often cast things in human-like terms because the narrative just works better that way for the human animal, but that doesn't mean one thinks these powers are human-like in reality; it's allegory and metaphor and such, not literally considered true. For example, one can portray Sun and Moon as siblings to convey something about how we understand their relationship, not because they are literally related to each other or biological in any way. For some reason, a lot of modern folks have difficulty understanding the non-literal, mythological nature of these old tales and even more modern ones. A combination of being post-Enlightenment and a focus on consumerism and physicalism is probably to blame for that. We forget art and also the art of storytelling.
 
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