Is religion necessary for social order?

[mikkel_the_dane]

There's also the question of what constitutes a religion. Practically any belief, social, or ethical system could function as one, god or no god.

Also at @Madsaac
Yeah, there is that when it comes to religion.

 

[Valjean]

without God, there will be no social order. and without social order, there will be no peace. as we are already witnessing chaos in this world.

And yet the countries with the most prosperous, orderly, crime-free and happiest populations are the least religious ones.
How do you account for that?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And yet the countries with the most prosperous, orderly, crime-free and happiest populations are the least religious ones.
How do you account for that?

That they were lucky in part and that their secular cultural ideologies function as religions in some sense.
There is more to it than that, but it is a part of it.

 

[bobhikes]

The question I ask today is Is religion necessary for social order?.

I invite everyone of all faiths (or lack of faith) to participate in this thread. I do ask that we go with the hypothetical assumption that there is no God(s) or anything of metaphysical nature, like the atheists believe. The reason I ask we go with the atheist POV for this thread is that it will help us better analyze the title question .

Since the dawn of Civilization, there has been religion.

For a moment, suppose there is no God. Would it be preferable (or at the very least non-consequential) then, if society as a whole eventually moved away from the God belief? Or does religion play an essential role in social order, regardless of the lack of God?

I am not sure my opinion on the matter. I will say that there are many individuals who may never be able to accept that there might be no consciousness after death. Religion seems to play an important role in stemming an individual's fear of death. Perhaps if scientist were to somehow prove that the unfalsifiable concept of God was false, I believe a mass existential crisis across society could occur.

I made this thread to get your perspectives!

Religion is not necessary for social order, however it is necessary for individuals.

Meaning you can run a society without religion but you will still have religious people within it.

Society is restrictive to the individual whereas religion is an escapism for the individual.

 

[Revoltingest]

Like I said, it doesn’t matter. All that matters now is fighting for peace not fighting each other. But if you want to keep bickering about who is responsible, then I won’t hold you back.. people like you have been bickering for 100 years and where has that gotten us?

People like me, eh.
**** ***.
What is "fighting for peace", if what you
call "bickering" shouldn't be addressed?

 

[Valjean]

It seems it has been necessary in the past, as no societies have survived that didn't have religion as a stabilizing element. The real question is, is religion still necessary. That answer seems to be "no" for at least some nations, but I'm not sure whether that holds true globally.

One problem is that religion tends to be a house built on sand. It lacks enough objective evidence for adherents to feel entirely comfortable in their beliefs and unthreatened in multi-religious societies.
Coercive and repressive legislation tends to be a frequent result, if not outright hostility.

 

[LeftyLen]

The question I ask today is Is religion necessary for social order?.

I invite everyone of all faiths (or lack of faith) to participate in this thread. I do ask that we go with the hypothetical assumption that there is no God(s) or anything of metaphysical nature, like the atheists believe. The reason I ask we go with the atheist POV for this thread is that it will help us better analyze the title question .

Since the dawn of Civilization, there has been religion.

For a moment, suppose there is no God. Would it be preferable (or at the very least non-consequential) then, if society as a whole eventually moved away from the God belief? Or does religion play an essential role in social order, regardless of the lack of God?

I am not sure my opinion on the matter. I will say that there are many individuals who may never be able to accept that there might be no consciousness after death. Religion seems to play an important role in stemming an individual's fear of death. Perhaps if scientist were to somehow prove that the unfalsifiable concept of God was false, I believe a mass existential crisis across society could occur.

I made this thread to get your perspectives!

Secularism, the death of God provide other gods, self, sports, media, statism all elevated to divine status of worship. A German philosopher predicted this in 1880. and it happened in Europe with devastating consequences in the 20th century, now its happing here. Alexis De Tocqueville predicted that is America lost its religion it would more from a 'Puritan Republic' to a 'selfish democracy.' that is happing now. Secularism is good for two things, government and science, all else it destroys.

 

[Valjean]

Religion is not necessary for social order, however it is necessary for individuals.

Meaning you can run a society without religion but you will still have religious people within it.

I'm an individual, but I feel no need for religion. I'm comfortable not knowing, and I find I can conduct myself ethically without it.
Judging by other responses I've read from other posters, I'm hardly the only one here.

"Society is restrictive to the individual whereas religion is an escapism for the individual."

I disagree. I'd say religion is restrictive to the individual, whilst secularism is the remedy.

 

[Valjean]

Secularism, the death of God provide other gods, self, sports, media, statism all elevated to divine status of worship. A German philosopher predicted this in 1880. and it happened in Europe with devastating consequences in the 20th century, now its happing here. Alexis De Tocqueville predicted that is America lost its religion it would more from a 'Puritan Republic' to a 'selfish democracy.' that is happing now. Secularism is good for two things, government and science, all else it destroys.

What else does it destroy? Doesn't it promote freedom and happiness?

 

[ChristineM]

Is religion necessary for social order?.

There is much friction between different religions. Just take a look at the riots currently in the UK, terror attacks and religious wars throughout history.

It also seems that religious people have less respect for the laws of the land.

So, my view is no.

 

[Revoltingest]

It also seems that religious people have less respect for the laws of the land.

Nor respect for even the land itself.
In USA, tis believers leading the charge
to ignore environmental degradation
in pursuit of expanding the population
& the economy.

 

[Eddi]

@an anarchist

I suggest that you look into some of the work of the French sociologist Emile Durkheim

You may find what he has to say about this interesting

 

[LeftyLen]

There is much friction between different religions. Just take a look at the riots currently in the UK, terror attacks and religious wars throughout history.

It also seems that religious people have less respect for the laws of the land.

So, my view is no.

1. I cannot speak to the politics of the UK. 2. are you rather broad brushing? 3. friction, or a free market? 4. In Europe the emergence of communism and Nazism in an increasingly secular Europe is one of the most powerful arguments for the need for Judeo-Christian religions. Europe’s two secular totalitarian systems perfectly illustrate what G.K. Chesterton predicted a hundred years ago: “When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything.”
The secular left fear religion, yet in America the religious right has been in decline for decades, they are too busy fighting among themselves. I have yet to figure out what exactly these critics mean.

What are those who derive their values from religion supposed to do — stay out of the political process completely never injecting themselves in the public sphere? Are only those who derive their values from secular sources or their own hearts allowed to attempt to influence the political process? It seems that this is precisely what secularists argue. But they are not even consistent here. I recall no secularist who protested that those, like the Rev. Martin Luther King, who used religion to fight for black equality “injected religion into politics in a very overt way.”

 

[LeftyLen]

I'm an individual, but I feel no need for religion. I'm comfortable not knowing and can conduct myself ethically without it. Judging by other responses I've read from other posters, I'm hardly the only one here.

I disagree. I'd say religion is restrictive to the individual, whilst secularism is the escape.

Secularism, the death of God provide other gods, self, sports, media, statism all elevated to divine status of worship. A German philosopher predicted this in 1880. and it happened in Europe with devastating consequences in the 20th century, now its happing here. Alexis De Tocqueville predicted that is America lost its religion it would more from a 'Puritan Republic' to a 'selfish democracy.' that is happing now. Secularism is good for two things, government and science, all else it destroys.

 

[Revoltingest]

I recall no secularist who protested that those, like the Rev. Martin Luther King, who used religion to fight for black equality “injected religion into politics in a very overt way.”

Your lack of recollection isn't convincing evidence.

Note also that fighting against black equality were
"good" Christians...the ones who originally justified
slavery & its continuation. And after the Civil War,
started the KKK & implemented Jim Crow laws.
And Jews owned slaves too.

Ya canna consider religion's effects by citing only
what ya believe to be good. Look at every effect
of a religion, warts'n all.

 

[LeftyLen]

Your lack of recollection isn't convincing evidence.

Note also that fighting against black equality were
"good" Christians...the ones who originally justified
slavery & its continuation. And after the Civil War,
started the KKK & implemented Jim Crow laws.
And Jews owned slaves too.

Ya canna consider religion's effects by citing only
what ya believe to be good. Look at every effect
of a religion, warts'n all.

1. The KKK was founded and supported by religious people, in the Democratic party. 2. Northern Baptists and southern have been divided ever since the civil war. The Northern rabidly against slavery, they southern rabidly for slavery, both using the same Bible. It depended on who paid the clergy's bills. 3. Religion in America has MOSTLY been a for good, secularism has MOSTLY been a force for bad.

 

[Revoltingest]

1. The KKK was founded and supported by religious people, in the Democratic party. 2. Northern Baptists and southern have been divided ever since the civil war. The Northern rabidly against slavery, they southern rabidly for slavery, both using the same Bible. It depended on who paid the clergy's bills.

With Christians & Jews being on both sides of
slavery & Manifest Destiny, what value is a religion?

3. Religion in America has MOSTLY been a for good, secularism has MOSTLY been a force for bad.

Only by your values.
I see improvement under increasing secularism....
- Right to inter-racial marriage.
- Gay marriage.
- Ending forced prayer in public schools.
- Ending prohibitions against non-believers in public
office & on juries.
- Tolerance of other religions.

 

[ChristineM]

1. I cannot speak to the politics of the UK

Ok

2. are you rather broad brushing?

World wide is as broad as it gets

friction, or a free market?

Free markets don't fly planes into buildings

4. In Europe the emergence of communism and Nazism in an increasingly secular Europe is one of the most powerful arguments for the need for Judeo-Christian religions

Hmm, communism left, nazism right.

Europe’s two secular totalitarian systems

Eh?

yet in America the religious right has been in decline for decades

Religion in general is in decline. The American religious right are interfering in politics to the expense of the nation

What are those who derive their values from religion supposed to do —

Follow their religion and keep their noses out of other people's business

Are only those who derive their values from secular sources or their own hearts allowed to attempt to influence the political process?

How's about democracy?

It seems that this is precisely what secularists argue

Eh?

I recall no secularist who protested that those, like the Rev. Martin Luther King, who used religion to fight for black equality “injected religion into politics in a very overt way

Are you using a rather narrow brush?

 

[LeftyLen]

With Christians & Jews being on both sides of
slavery & Manifest Destiny, what value is a religion?

Only by your values.
I see improvement under increasing secularism....
- Right to inter-racial marriage.
- Gay marriage.
- Ending forced prayer in public schools.
- Ending prohibitions against non-believers in public
office & on juries.
- Tolerance of other religions.

pluralism is mandated in the establishment clause. There is a dialectic in the constitution that led to democratization. prayers by students is not banned, only mandated ones. Gay marriage> Fascinating, this generation must be more enlightened than all others in history that defined a man and a woman as being 'married.' The constitution " no religious test shall be required for public office," some states yes, had an issue with that.

 

[wellwisher]

The question I ask today is Is religion necessary for social order?.

I invite everyone of all faiths (or lack of faith) to participate in this thread. I do ask that we go with the hypothetical assumption that there is no God(s) or anything of metaphysical nature, like the atheists believe. The reason I ask we go with the atheist POV for this thread is that it will help us better analyze the title question .

Since the dawn of Civilization, there has been religion.

For a moment, suppose there is no God. Would it be preferable (or at the very least non-consequential) then, if society as a whole eventually moved away from the God belief? Or does religion play an essential role in social order, regardless of the lack of God?

I am not sure my opinion on the matter. I will say that there are many individuals who may never be able to accept that there might be no consciousness after death. Religion seems to play an important role in stemming an individual's fear of death. Perhaps if scientist were to somehow prove that the unfalsifiable concept of God was false, I believe a mass existential crisis across society could occur.

I made this thread to get your perspectives!

The answer is yes. The reason is religion, by belief in a higher power, causes the ego to moderate behavior, since it accepts that the ego is not in control and thereby become humble enough to sacrifice the its urge for power, so it can get along.

For example, fake news which divides the US, does not come from religion. Fake religion and politics creates a divide as a path to power. The Ten Commandments say thou shalt not bear false witness. The gossip busy bodies that divide the country, such as those connected to the DNC and Swamp, do that all the time. If they were more humble and self contained by religious values, the media would more be boring but truthful, and the country would not be divided. In this forum, those without religion are the most blind to this common sense.

How many people how hate religion will accept and carry the water about the current lies about Harris, and then blame religion with another lie? Deception like that cause division. Act like a scientist and look around and see who is willing to lie and follow the propaganda of man, while lacking proof that what you believe is real. If you believe in God, you are taught that is not the path to salvation, and you will try to bring peace through reason and the truth and not propaganda and emotional thinking.

Then again religions of Satan, may have the option to lie since, he is the spirit of deception. Lack of faith and the religions of Satan are the problem, since it encourages the ego to inflate by creating deception that leads to division. Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion Delusion. The religious actually figured out the truth before the godless. When you deflate the ego you can become more rational.