Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Think! If you obey the Law, you won't have any thing to be forgiven from.
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Is "salvation" possible under the Law?
- Thread starter CG Didymus
- Start date
Think! If you obey the Law, you won't have any thing to be forgiven from.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
What is the definition of "Afterlife?" Death. The logical meaning of afterlife is death.
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If a person kills someone while attempting to save another person from being killed, has he broken the Law?
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
No, he has not. In Judaism it is called Pichuach Nephesh. But he still has to live in a city of refuge until the High Priest passes away. To live in a city of refuge would be almost the same as to move into a new residence. One would have the whole city to move around; only not outside the walls. However, if three eyewitnesses could verify his testimony, he could go free and be legally protected by the authorities.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I don't know but that sounds more backwards. How does anyone know of Jesus without the NT? With only the Jewish Bible how does anyone know of Jesus at all? The Messiah was to do certain things. Did Jesus do all of them?
Some Christians push the literal interpretation to the limit. Like a young Earth, a world-wide flood, and a walking, talking serpent that was really Satan... that before he was known as Satan, he was Lucifer. Where do Christians come up with all of this? From the Bible and, I believe, a little influence from Greek and Roman and other pagan beliefs. I don't believe it literal at all.
But I do believe that people that put their trust in a "higher" power or some other spiritual kind of belief do get an inner strength and a sort of confirmation of their beliefs. But it happens in all religions. Even within Christianity a Catholic gets answers from praying to Mary. People get comfort from calling on the name of Jesus. But was "Jesus" his real name? No, it was some Hebrew or Aramaic name probably, but they say "Jesus" and believe and it works. Some Hindu calls on the name of Shiva or maybe Krishna, and it works. Does it work beyond this life? I don't know. As far as I know, it wasn't that big a deal or talked about that much in Judaism, but it is everything in Christianity. Where is the consistency of "truth"? God changes his message and focus on what is important.
And, speaking of consistency, this whole thing that "sin" led to death is a Christian thing. The serpent is cursed, but you don't care about any of the curses but the one that you can use to connect to Jesus. Then, Adam and Eve received curses. None said that now they will not live forever but will die.. To me, it is way more likely that living and dying was always part of the cycle. Things rust, crumble, and slowly fade away. You need this interpretation that death entered the world because of sin to make Jesus' life and death have meaning. Where do you get that? Did God reveal it to you? Or, did you read it in the NT?
Like you said, you can "believe what you want", and so can you and everybody else. And only a few believe your form of Christianity. How many of the other, non-tulipers, do you consider "saved"? At what point do they believe in enough correct stuff about Jesus to be "saved", and some one else believe in too much wrong stuff that their faith and trust is considered to be in a false Jesus? In that case, aren't the details of what you believe important?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
"Custody" of the law? It really does seem like the Law was presented like that. The law a "guardian"? What doesn't make sense is that we all need rules. We all make laws. We all bend or break some of those laws. Some laws are against some pretty bad things that people do to each other. The law is there along with a severe penalty to try a prevent people from doing those things.
All of us are still under all sorts of laws, even Christians. Jesus wants his followers to obey his "commands". So even he imposes "laws" on his people. But prior to Jesus, what was a good Jew supposed to do? Follow the law, right? Can they do it perfectly? Paul says "no". Paul says that if you break even the least of the laws you are guilty of all? Where in the Hebrew Bible does God say that?
Since people that put their trust in God prior to Jesus were considered "righteous" by God, then faith and obedience to God's commands, as best as they could, did get people "saved", right? And, it had nothing to do with a belief that the future Messiah was going to break some curse about death. Death still happens. It is not broken. People prior to Jesus were right with God and people after Jesus also... All of them died, (unless you believe some were carried off to the sky bodily). Death destroyed the physical body, but did it ever kill the spiritual body?
And that's another question. Why would God condemn a spiritual body, (whether you call it man's soul or spirit, whatever you like or believe), for something that the physical body does during its short lifetime? Was the spirit put into man clean and pure? Or, was it "tainted" by "original" sin? Making the physical and spiritual body of man both tainted? Was this inherited corrupt nature ever part of Jewish beliefs? If not, then why does Christianity come up with it? Only to make Jesus necessary. So you nullify and re-interpret all of what your God told the Jews? Why didn't God just tell them the real truth to begin with? If the pre-incarnate Jesus made appearances in the Hebrew Bible, why didn't he make it clear the path to salvation? That you don't have to worry about keeping the law, you just need faith.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Since Moses and Elijah made it,
I do believe there was salvation before Christ
Matthew 17:1-4 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, [2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. [3] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. [4] Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
But through Christ was everyone ultimately saved.
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Do you believe in Global Warming? Is Global Warming important? Do you care what people believe about Global Warming? Would you defend your beliefs on Global Warming?
If someone does not agree with your views on Global Warming, are they still a citizen of the United States?
My views on salvation are important to me and I am happy to discuss them and willing to defend them, however, no person has or will ever be saved by agreeing with me nor is disagreeing with me grounds to disqualify anyone from salvation. The Bible says many claim to belong, but few find the narrow road. That just is what it is. Each person's salvation is between them and God. I have a responsibility to tell you what God said in the Bible and you have a responsibility to respond to it. To accept or reject what God says. After I have said what I am required to say, your salvation is not in my hands. (Technically, it never was).
Here is the criteria Romans 10:9-10
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
What you do with that criteria is between you and God, but I see nothing about a quiz on a serpent or the need to embrace TULIP.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Aside from the fact that I don't believe that ritual mutilation /religious/cultural,(circumcision), or dunking oneself, in water have any actual salvific magical implications, the methodology in Romans seems far easier.
^
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So something Paul said is the criteria? Things he wrote are the very "Word of God"? How do you know this? Prior to Paul saying that, what in the Hebrew Bible tells people what the criteria is? And since there was no such person as Jesus yet, I have a feeling God told the Jews something different. Like maybe God saying "follow my Laws and you will live" or something like that.
There is so much in the Bible, if I read something that doesn't make sense, which is putting the whole thing being from God into question, then I'm going to ask. One verse from Paul, or the many out of context quotes Paul uses from the Hebrew Bible, doesn't convince me. The whole thing better make sense. If Christians ignore the things they don't understand (or can't twist to fit into their beliefs) from the Hebrew Bible, then I have a problem taking them serious. So I'm fine with believing there's a bigger picture and Christianity is only a part of that bigger Spiritual puzzle. Thanks for you posts.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Have I ever spoken here about the "salvific magical implications" of circumcision? Never! Salvation from what? According to Jesus himself the only way to achieve salvation is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Now, that methodology is much more practical.
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Reggie Miller
Well-Known Member
But you have to obey every law all the time. You must be perfect. No one has achieved that but Christ.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The issue of God's forgiveness is not just covered in the gospels but also in the Tanakh.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
If you don't think that salvation is important, then why are you stating that Jesus taught, it is from the law? Makes no sense. Either there is salvation, or there isn't.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Are you sure! What about if I prove to you that there is salvation, what are you going to do? Never mind! The Law says, "Thou shall not commit murder." In some States in America, murder is punishable by death. However, if you obey the Law you'll be saved from that death penalty. Have I proved salvation as a result of obeying the Law or have I not?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
@ Ben Avraham
Why not entertain the question? I would not rely on something like baptism, .....would you?
Why not entertain the question? I would not rely on something like baptism, .....would you?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Also it's a
Strawman argument, because you would not need the Torah for that
Strawman argument, because you would not need the Torah for that
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
What is to be perfect, the one who obeys every law in the Decalogue? Not really! And you say that only Jesus achieved that much. As every other Christian under the power of Christian preconceived notions, you too are wrong. For two reasons, Jesus was a sinner just as you and I are. First, "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned" if you read Ecclesiastes 7:20. That's the concept that proves that no one is perfect. Now for the second reason when that concept is proved into reality, Jesus broke the Golden Rule 15 times only on that text of Mat. 23:13-33 when he cursed the Pharisees with being hypocrites and brood of vipers, if we are to believe the gospel of Matthew. The Golden Rule states that we must not do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. I am sure Jesus would not have liked to be addressed as a hypocrite and brood of vipers. So, he broke the Golden Rule which covers the whole second part of the Decalogue. Serious transgressions right there! I hope, from now on, you will never say again that Jesus was perfect.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Obviously not since we don't have it.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
You have circumcision, Mikvah etc etc. Some Jews have so many rules you probably couldn't even remember them all.
and with no salvific effect? no thanks