Is science against the Revealed Religion?

[paarsurrey]

Don't you know that some people have names after birds and animals ?

People with Animal Names

Bird, Bear, Crazy Horse and Kitty.

Naturally, you'd think we're referring to animals, but actually, these are the names of famous people. Explore this unique category of individuals whose names are full of fur, feather and scales:

whose names are full of fur, feather and scales.

PEOPLE IN THIS GROUP
Catfish Hunter BASEBALL PLAYER(1946–1999) Megan Fox MODEL,FILM ACTRESS,TELEVISION ACTRESS(1986–) Crazy Horse WARRIOR,MILITARY LEADER,FOLK HERO(C. 1842–1877) Michael J. Fox FILM ACTOR, TELEVISION ACTOR(1961–) Bob CraneTELEVISION ACTOR(1928–1978)
Screamin' Jay Hawkins PIANIST,SONGWRITER,SINGER(1929–2000) Tiger Woods GOLFER (1975–) Stephen Crane AUTHOR, JOURNALIST(1871–1900)
Bear Bryant COACH (1913–1983) Sitting Bull WARRIOR, MILITARY LEADER (1831–1890) Kitty Carlisle THEATER ACTRESS,FILM ACTRESS, SINGER,TELEVISION PERSONALITY (1910–2007) Cheryl Crane WRITER (1943–) Buffalo Bill Cody THEATER ACTOR, MILITARY LEADER, FOLK HERO (1846–1917)
Lady Bird Johnson U.S. FIRST LADY, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST (1912–2007) Pearl S. Buck AUTHOR, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST(1892–1973) Larry Bird COACH, FAMOUS BASKETBALL PLAYERS (1956–) Florence Nightingale NURSE (1820–1910)
Cat Stevens SONGWRITER,SINGER, PHILANTHROPIST (1948–) Benicio Del Toro FILM ACTOR(1967–) Dick Wolf TELEVISION PRODUCER (1946–)
Jay Leno TALK SHOW HOST (1950–) Kitty Wells SONGWRITER, SINGER (1919–2012) Charles Lamb AUTHOR, POET (1775–1834)

http://www.biography.com/people/groups/people-with-animal-names

I think you know. They talked and lived and earned their name.
Regards

 

[McBell]

Don't you know that some people have names after birds and animals ?

People with Animal Names

Bird, Bear, Crazy Horse and Kitty.

Naturally, you'd think we're referring to animals, but actually, these are the names of famous people. Explore this unique category of individuals whose names are full of fur, feather and scales:

whose names are full of fur, feather and scales.

PEOPLE IN THIS GROUP
Catfish Hunter BASEBALL PLAYER(1946–1999) Megan Fox MODEL,FILM ACTRESS,TELEVISION ACTRESS(1986–) Crazy Horse WARRIOR,MILITARY LEADER,FOLK HERO(C. 1842–1877) Michael J. Fox FILM ACTOR, TELEVISION ACTOR(1961–) Bob CraneTELEVISION ACTOR(1928–1978)
Screamin' Jay Hawkins PIANIST,SONGWRITER,SINGER(1929–2000) Tiger Woods GOLFER (1975–) Stephen Crane AUTHOR, JOURNALIST(1871–1900)
Bear Bryant COACH (1913–1983) Sitting Bull WARRIOR, MILITARY LEADER (1831–1890) Kitty Carlisle THEATER ACTRESS,FILM ACTRESS, SINGER,TELEVISION PERSONALITY (1910–2007) Cheryl Crane WRITER (1943–) Buffalo Bill Cody THEATER ACTOR, MILITARY LEADER, FOLK HERO (1846–1917)
Lady Bird Johnson U.S. FIRST LADY, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST (1912–2007) Pearl S. Buck AUTHOR, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST(1892–1973) Larry Bird COACH, FAMOUS BASKETBALL PLAYERS (1956–) Florence Nightingale NURSE (1820–1910)
Cat Stevens SONGWRITER,SINGER, PHILANTHROPIST (1948–) Benicio Del Toro FILM ACTOR(1967–) Dick Wolf TELEVISION PRODUCER (1946–)
Jay Leno TALK SHOW HOST (1950–) Kitty Wells SONGWRITER, SINGER (1919–2012) Charles Lamb AUTHOR, POET (1775–1834)

http://www.biography.com/people/groups/people-with-animal-names

I think you know. They talked and lived and earned their name.
Regards

Interesting that the names of these "famous" ""people"" from the Koran; jinn, wind, ants, were not important enough to be capitalized...

 

[Milton Platt]

Interesting that the names of these "famous" ""people"" from the Koran; jinn, wind, ants, were not important enough to be capitalized...

He left out Captain Kangaroo.......

 

[gnostic]

Don't you know that some people have names after birds and animals ?

People with Animal Names

Bird, Bear, Crazy Horse and Kitty.

Naturally, you'd think we're referring to animals, but actually, these are the names of famous people. Explore this unique category of individuals whose names are full of fur, feather and scales:

whose names are full of fur, feather and scales.

PEOPLE IN THIS GROUP
Catfish Hunter BASEBALL PLAYER(1946–1999) Megan Fox MODEL,FILM ACTRESS,TELEVISION ACTRESS(1986–) Crazy Horse WARRIOR,MILITARY LEADER,FOLK HERO(C. 1842–1877) Michael J. Fox FILM ACTOR, TELEVISION ACTOR(1961–) Bob CraneTELEVISION ACTOR(1928–1978)
Screamin' Jay Hawkins PIANIST,SONGWRITER,SINGER(1929–2000) Tiger Woods GOLFER (1975–) Stephen Crane AUTHOR, JOURNALIST(1871–1900)
Bear Bryant COACH (1913–1983) Sitting Bull WARRIOR, MILITARY LEADER (1831–1890) Kitty Carlisle THEATER ACTRESS,FILM ACTRESS, SINGER,TELEVISION PERSONALITY (1910–2007) Cheryl Crane WRITER (1943–) Buffalo Bill Cody THEATER ACTOR, MILITARY LEADER, FOLK HERO (1846–1917)
Lady Bird Johnson U.S. FIRST LADY, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST (1912–2007) Pearl S. Buck AUTHOR, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST(1892–1973) Larry Bird COACH, FAMOUS BASKETBALL PLAYERS (1956–) Florence Nightingale NURSE (1820–1910)
Cat Stevens SONGWRITER,SINGER, PHILANTHROPIST (1948–) Benicio Del Toro FILM ACTOR(1967–) Dick Wolf TELEVISION PRODUCER (1946–)
Jay Leno TALK SHOW HOST (1950–) Kitty Wells SONGWRITER, SINGER (1919–2012) Charles Lamb AUTHOR, POET (1775–1834)

http://www.biography.com/people/groups/people-with-animal-names

I think you know. They talked and lived and earned their name.
Regards

Except that Muhammad's sources to those quotes that I had provided from the Qur'an, come from Jewish folklore that Jews know from their oral traditions, and Muhammad must have learned from them,when he was younger.

It is hardly a coincidence that the Aggadah have Solomon speaking to birds and ants, and you have Muhammad telling story about Solomon speaking to animals.

You are ignoring my comparison of the quoted Qur'an verses with that of the Aggadah ( or the 1909's translation, Legends of the Jews).

And they were names, paarsurrey.

None of the quotes that I had given were names. Like mestemia wrote:

Interesting that the names of these "famous" ""people"" from the Koran; jinn, wind, ants, were not important enough to be capitalized...

All of them were not capitalised as any proper noun (names). Each translated verse state "bird" or "birds", not "Bird" or "Birds". The Qur'an always say "hoopoe", not "Hoopoe". And "ant" or "ants", not "Ant" or "Ants".

Your examples (like "Tger" Wood, Megan "Fox" and Sitting "Bull"), always capitalised the name; the Qur'an doesn't capitalised the words, therefore they are not names.

When you give people titles, you would also capitalised the words or titles.

I know what you are saying, but these are just apologetic excuses.

 

[paarsurrey]

Except that Muhammad's sources to those quotes that I had provided from the Qur'an, come from Jewish folklore that Jews know from their oral traditions, and Muhammad must have learned from them,when he was younger.
It is hardly a coincidence that the Aggadah have Solomon speaking to birds and ants, and you have Muhammad telling story about Solomon speaking to animals.

Please provide documentary evidences, not just guesses.
The Torah scribes misunderstood the revelation on Moses, as also the one on the previous and the prophets afterwards, Quran comments on Bible and exposes where it faltered and reveals the truth that was original.
Quran copies nothing from anybody.
REgards

 

[paarsurrey]

All of them were not capitalised as any proper noun (names)

There is no captilisation in Arabic for names.
Regards

 

[McBell]

... these are just apologetic excuses.

Agreed.
But I cannot help but point out the little things that show it to be wishful thinking on their part.

 

[McBell]

Quran copies nothing from anybody.

Out right lie.

 

[outhouse]

OPs whole thread is non sequitur.

There is no such thing as a revealed religion scientifically speaking.


Its like saying is science is against unicorns.

 

[Milton Platt]

OPs whole thread is non sequitur.

There is no such thing as a revealed religion scientifically speaking.


Its like saying is science is against unicorns.

Glad somebody finally cut to the chase.....

 

[gnostic]

But I cannot help but point out the little things that show it to be wishful thinking on their part.

True.

But they do like to twist their logic around to fit in with belief in prophet and scripture.

Paarsurrey right now tried to turn that talking animals into people named after specific animals.

 

[gnostic]

There is no captilisation in Arabic for names.

I didn't say it did.

But if you read every single translation of those verses I quoted, and others that I didn't quoted, none of them were capitalized.

The translators, most of them are Muslim translators, followed the usual English convention towards people's personal names (like Allah, Gabriel), titles (like "Prophet", "Messenger", "Shepherd"), names of places, tribal or national names (like Jews, Meccans), etc, (hence "proper nouns") are written capitalized.

If these animals were really people, ant would become "Ant", or hoopoe would become "Hoopoe".

It doesn't make sense, the translations followed the rules (of capitalising names), then break the rules of using lower case with hoopoe and ant?

The reason why they didn't use Hoopoe and Ant, because each translations believed that these were indeed bird and insect.

And if what you say is true, then why not translated Muhammad as muhammad, Moses as moses? Why do any of the translators never spelt god - "allah" instead of "Allah"?

You are simply making excuses up, without any substance to back up your claims. You are deceiving yourself, and making yourself less than credible.

 

[Milton Platt]

I didn't say it did.

But if you read every single translation of those verses I quoted, and others that I didn't quoted, none of them were capitalized.

The translators, most of them are Muslim translators, followed the usual English convention towards people's personal names (like Allah, Gabriel), titles (like "Prophet", "Messenger", "Shepherd"), names of places, tribal or national names (like Jews, Meccans), etc, (hence "proper nouns") are written capitalized.

If these animals were really people, ant would become "Ant", or hoopoe would become "Hoopoe".

It doesn't make sense, the translations followed the rules (of capitalising names), then break the rules of using lower case with hoopoe and ant?

The reason why they didn't use Hoopoe and Ant, because each translations believed that these were indeed bird and insect. You are simply making excuses up, without any substance to back up your claims.

Isn't your head hurting yet from butting against that brick wall?

 

[paarsurrey]

Isn't your head hurting yet from butting against that brick wall?

I didn't get you exactly. Please paraphrase it for me.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

He left out Captain Kangaroo.......

An interesting name though.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I didn't say it did.
But if you read every single translation of those verses I quoted, and others that I didn't quoted, none of them were capitalized.
The translators, most of them are Muslim translators, followed the usual English convention towards people's personal names (like Allah, Gabriel), titles (like "Prophet", "Messenger", "Shepherd"), names of places, tribal or national names (like Jews, Meccans), etc, (hence "proper nouns") are written capitalized.
If these animals were really people, ant would become "Ant", or hoopoe would become "Hoopoe".
It doesn't make sense, the translations followed the rules (of capitalising names), then break the rules of using lower case with hoopoe and ant?
The reason why they didn't use Hoopoe and Ant, because each translations believed that these were indeed bird and insect.
And if what you say is true, then why not translated Muhammad as muhammad, Moses as moses? Why do any of the translators never spelt god - "allah" instead of "Allah"?
You are simply making excuses up, without any substance to back up your claims. You are deceiving yourself, and making yourself less than credible.

Did any translator claim that his translation of Quran is without error or that he never committed any error in understanding something?
Humans do make all sorts of error, so are the translations.
Regards

 

[gnostic]

Did any translator claim that his translation of Quran is without error or that he never committed any error in understanding something?
Humans do make all sorts of error, so are the translations.
Regards

I have never claimed that any one translation of the Qur'an is perfect.

That's why I don't rely on just one translation before I had previously replied to you, paarsurrey; I had looked at 6 translations of those passages in the Qur'an.

The beauty of the Internet is that some sites can provide any number of translations, like quran.com website, which can show each verse with as many as 6 translations in the chapter (Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Shakir, Sahih International, Dr Ghali, Muhsin Khan; they also include the original Arabic and it's transliteration). There are probably some other sites that could show more than 6 translations, but that would be too overwhelming.

Clearly, each translator had translated the verse differently from one another, so I not only had to compare the different writing styles of translating, but if each convey the same "context" of the passage that I am examining. So more importance are placed on examining the CONTEXT than the writing styles of each translation.

The thing is when translating, there are always differences when making comparisons, but if they convey the same messages, meanings or contexts, then it is possible to figure out which is one (or more) in error.

The 6 translations that I have examined, don't capitalised the first letter that are used in name. Even if in Arabic don't distinguish little letter with capitalised one, the translation required each translator to use the proper English convention of capitalising each first letter to a name.

Whether the name is for each person (first, middle and family name) required the first letter to be capitalised. The same goes for nicknames and aliases. When a title is being used with name for individual person, the proper convention is to use capitalised. Similarly for family names, clan names, tribal names. The names for country or the nation's people or nation's language required them be given with capitalised first letter, eg Arabia (country name or name of the peninsula), Arabians and Arabs (name for the country or ethic people), and Arabic (country's language).

The translations each show that the words used for "birds" and "ants" we're not family or tribal names because they have been translated in with first letters in lower case.

If they were tribal names, THEY WOULD BE WRITTEN AS - "Birds" or "Ants" - but they are not.

What are the possibilities that all 6 translations getting "birds" and "ants" wrong? I don't think so. If I look at more translations out there, what are possibility that the majority using lower case or capitalised first letter?

You say that translation can be wrong, and you are right, it is possible. But not if each translation show the same contexts in the majority of translations.

I could be wrong, and I have thought of that possibility that I could be wrong, but I do have 6 different translations to back me up that the passages that I had quoted about Solomon speaking to and commanding animals (ants and birds), not humans with names of animals (Ants and Birds).

Have you ever thought of the possibility that "you" could be wrong with your claims, with your interpretations?

Until you can show me more translations than I have, that these are not animals that Solomon were speaking to, to back up your claims/interpretations, then I will freely admit that I was wrong.

If I was to show 5 more translations to back up my claim even more, are you willing to admit that you are wrong?

 

[paarsurrey]

I have never claimed that any one translation of the Qur'an is perfect.
That's why I don't rely on just one translation before I had previously replied to you, paarsurrey; I had looked at 6 translations of those passages in the Qur'an.
The beauty of the Internet is that some sites can provide any number of translations, like quran.com website, which can show each verse with as many as 6 translations in the chapter (Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Shakir, Sahih International, Dr Ghali, Muhsin Khan; they also include the original Arabic and it's transliteration). There are probably some other sites that could show more than 6 translations, but that would be too overwhelming.
Clearly, each translator had translated the verse differently from one another, so I not only had to compare the different writing styles of translating, but if each convey the same "context" of the passage that I am examining. So more importance are placed on examining the CONTEXT than the writing styles of each translation.
The thing is when translating, there are always differences when making comparisons, but if they convey the same messages, meanings or contexts, then it is possible to figure out which is one (or more) in error.
The 6 translations that I have examined, don't capitalised the first letter that are used in name. Even if in Arabic don't distinguish little letter with capitalised one, the translation required each translator to use the proper English convention of capitalising each first letter to a name.
Whether the name is for each person (first, middle and family name) required the first letter to be capitalised. The same goes for nicknames and aliases. When a title is being used with name for individual person, the proper convention is to use capitalised. Similarly for family names, clan names, tribal names. The names for country or the nation's people or nation's language required them be given with capitalised first letter, eg Arabia (country name or name of the peninsula), Arabians and Arabs (name for the country or ethic people), and Arabic (country's language).
The translations each show that the words used for "birds" and "ants" we're not family or tribal names because they have been translated in with first letters in lower case.
If they were tribal names, THEY WOULD BE WRITTEN AS - "Birds" or "Ants" - but they are not.
What are the possibilities that all 6 translations getting "birds" and "ants" wrong? I don't think so. If I look at more translations out there, what are possibility that the majority using lower case or capitalised first letter?
You say that translation can be wrong, and you are right, it is possible. But not if each translation show the same contexts in the majority of translations.
I could be wrong, and I have thought of that possibility that I could be wrong, but I do have 6 different translations to back me up that the passages that I had quoted about Solomon speaking to and commanding animals (ants and birds), not humans with names of animals (Ants and Birds).
Have you ever thought of the possibility that "you" could be wrong with your claims, with your interpretations?
Until you can show me more translations than I have, that these are not animals that Solomon were speaking to, to back up your claims/interpretations, then I will freely admit that I was wrong.
If I was to show 5 more translations to back up my claim even more, are you willing to admit that you are wrong?

Since you are talking of possibilities, if one person could make one error, errors of six person possibly could add to six errors. If one person could make two errors then six person could make 12 errors, so on and so forth, it would go to any numbers. Right?

Now don't get disheartened, please. I also could have been wrong till I searched on the internet the word "numl" or "namal" used in Quran in Arabic and I saw the beauty of the Internet myself. Now you could do that yourself. Anyone, please
Regards

 

[gnostic]

Since you are talking of possibilities, if one person could make one error, errors of six person possibly could add to six errors. If one person could make two errors then six person could make 12 errors, so on and so forth, it would go to any numbers. Right?

Now don't get disheartened, please. I also could have been wrong till I searched on the internet the word "numl" used in Quran in Arabic and I saw the beauty of the Internet myself. Now you could do that yourself. Anyone, please
Regards

You are being evasive by making apologetic excuses.

The quran.com website provide the original Arabic text, a transliteration and 6 possible English translations:

1. Yusuf Ali,
2. Pickthall,
3. Shakir,
4. Sahih International,
5. Dr Ghali,
6. Muhsin Khan

Back at post 160, I had replied with some of those quotes of translated verses. These back up what I am saying. If you going to mount a counter claim to refute me, then the best way to this, is provide more translations than I have, to prove to me that I am wrong.

All 6 translations use "ant" or "ants", "bird" and "birds", and "hoopoe", all of which are little first letters, when in the middle or end of a sentence. That mean that all 6 translations verified my interpretations that these are not humans in the events about Solomon in the Qur'an.

It is about verification of claims.

Now unless you can demonstrably show 6 or more translations that use capitalised 1st letter as if they were personal names of individual human or group of people like family name and tribal name (eg Ant, Ants, Bird, Birds and Hoopoe), then I will be willing to admit that I am wrong.

But can you admit you are wrong if you can't give me 6 different English translations those passages about Solomon and the birds (or hoopoe) and ants that are capitalised as names?

I have provided a website where you get all 6 translations on those verses, can you meet me half-way by providing at least the same number of translations?

Right now, all you have done is provide me no verifiable sources, other than your apologetic excuses.There are no way that I can verify what you say is true, unless you provide me with at least 6 translations to verses about Solomon communicating or commanding humans, not birds or ants.

That's not good enough. Prove it or admit that you were wrong.

 

[gnostic]

To help you along, you should be able to provided 6 or more translations to the following verses:

ants: 27:18-19
birds (including the hoopoe): 27:20-22​

In post 160, I had quoted 3 translations, but the other 3 translations can be found on the same website (quran.com). They verified what I have claimed.

Can you provide 6 or more translations that used capitalised 1st letter (to birds, ants or hoopoe)?