Is the Canon of Scripture incomplete??

[Barrackubus]

The Bible has a verse in Jude verses 14 and 15 where it says,

...And Enoch the seventh from Adam prophesied of these things, Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousand of his saints, To execute judgement upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly commited, and of their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him...

If the Bible is annointed and gives itself credibility by saying all scripture is inspired by God, where then is this prophecy recorded? It is a scripture out of the book of Enoch and is.not in the canon of scripture? Why is a book used as a reference for scripture not apart of the Bible? As a Bible believing Christian I would question that??

 

[javajo]

The Bible has a verse in Jude verses 14 and 15 where it says,

...And Enoch the seventh from Adam prophesied of these things, Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousand of his saints, To execute judgement upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly commited, and of their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him...

If the Bible is annointed and gives itself credibility by saying all scripture is inspired by God, where then is this prophecy recorded? It is a scripture out of the book of Enoch and is.not in the canon of scripture? Why is a book used as a reference for scripture not apart of the Bible? As a Bible believing Christian I would question that??

From my study of it a while back, I think that Enoch, who because he is mentioned in Genesis 5 as having, walked with God: and he was not; for God took him, was righteous in that he walked with God and was so righteous that God took him, very well may have said the statement recorded in Jude (in fact I believe he did indeed say it). While he most likely said it because the judgment of the Flood was imminent, I do not think he wrote the Book of Enoch or that it is entirely true and it was not accepted into the Bible. Some do believe it is true and it is a fascinating study either way. One can believe Enoch said that and still not accept the book of Enoch. Its probable that someone took that statement of old and made up the story.

 

[nazz]

The Bible has a verse in Jude verses 14 and 15 where it says,

...And Enoch the seventh from Adam prophesied of these things, Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousand of his saints, To execute judgement upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly commited, and of their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him...

If the Bible is annointed and gives itself credibility by saying all scripture is inspired by God, where then is this prophecy recorded? It is a scripture out of the book of Enoch and is.not in the canon of scripture? Why is a book used as a reference for scripture not apart of the Bible? As a Bible believing Christian I would question that??

Yes, they should but there is actually a very simple explanation. One of the criterion used to fix the (Western) canon was that anything included in the New Testament had to be of apostolic origin. From a scholarly standpoint this is highly doubtful but it was one of the yardsticks they employed. They did make exception for the gospels of Mark and Luke but only because the alleged authors of those works were closely associated with some of the Apostles.

This is one of the reasons the Book of Revelation almost did not make the final cut. It was only when the author came to be regarded as the Apostle John that it was included.

BTW, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church considers Enoch to be canonical and includes it in their OT canon.

 

[Barrackubus]

Why would the bible in the book of jude quote a passage out of that writing from enoch unless it ws insnspired?
Does the Bible use uninspired texts from other sources?

The book of Enoch tells of a story where he, Enoch called to go and preach to the fallen angels giants as scribed in the 6th chapter of the book of Genesis. It tells how those fallen angels had at this point corrupted mankind kind by teaching them all kinds of sinful ways.
That verse of scripture is found in Jude is written within the text of the Book of Enoch. Long before there was a recognized canon of scripture, there where several writings abroad that were accepted by some groups as scripture, and other groups decided it wasn't for them.
When they gathered to put a canon together, the book of Enoch was argued rather heatedly for it's inclusion in the scripture. But the argument fell short of a few votes. The unique thing is here is of course the story Enoch tells and the answers for demonic possession. Enoch told the fallen amfels their.physical bodies would perish, but God himself was unable to destroy their spirits and that those spirits would roam the earth, and as you read the rest of the text you can determine that these are implied as being the demons that possess people, according to Christian path.
It also allows you to ask.as to exactly why the earth.was flooded, in reguards to the destruction of these angels versus sinful people. Was the flood because of them instead of sinful people.
There were also those that accused the individuals of creating the modern day canon of conspiracy arising out of the Book of Enoch and the exclusion of it from the canon, based on keeping the.subject matter kind of hush, hush. Censorship of the scripture, who would have ever heard of such a thing?

 

[javajo]

Why would the bible in the book of jude quote a passage out of that writing from enoch unless it ws insnspired?

Just because a similar passage is in Enoch does not necessarily mean that is where Jude got it from. That is just an assumption. Besides the two passages differ slightly, one saying thousands and the other millions of angels, and one saying to convict while the other says to destroy the ungodly. The rest of it differs in wording in minor ways. Jude was written by Jude through the Holy Spirit and is truth. Jesus or the NT apostles did not refer to the book of Enoch and they did not include it. 1 Tim. 5:17-18; 2 Pet. 3:14-1 show the apostles verified scripture as it was being written and distributed it to the churches. By the time they died the books were known and Enoch was not in any of the lists. While it was highly regarded by many, Jesus nor the apostles ever called it scripture. I could go into some details of the book itself that may add light as to why it was not included, but I think its best left to folks to study individually, as much can be gained by personal research.

 

[nazz]

Just because a similar passage is in Enoch does not necessarily mean that is where Jude got it from. That is just an assumption.

Is it? Jude credits Enoch.

Besides the two passages differ slightly, one saying thousands and the other millions of angels, and one saying to convict while the other says to destroy the ungodly. The rest of it differs in wording in minor ways..

There are different versions of Enoch.

 

[javajo]

Is it? Jude credits Enoch.

Where?

 

[nazz]

Where?

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, (Jude 1:14)

 

[javajo]

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, (Jude 1:14)

He quoted Enoch, not the Book of Enoch, see?

 

[nazz]

He quoted Enoch, not the Book of Enoch, see?

so where did he get the quote?

 

[javajo]

so where did he get the quote?

From Enoch. Same place the author of the Book of Enoch got it. Enoch did not write the book of Enoch. Enoch lived before the Flood, long time ago. The Book of Enoch was written much later.

 

[nazz]

From Enoch. Same place the author of the Book of Enoch got it. Enoch did not write the book of Enoch. Enoch lived before the Flood, long time ago. The Book of Enoch was written much later.

are you suggesting time travel?

I certainly agree Enoch dd not write Enoch. If such a person even existed.

 

[Barrackubus]

He quoted Enoch, there are alot instances where new testament wording of versus quoted from the old testament differs slightly. The very fact that jude quoted from another source not found in the canon of scripture gives it alot of credibility. Certianly those words and any other writings of this Enoch has not been discovered. Certainly, ten thousands could equate to millions, depending on how many ten thousands they are. It's not a case for splitting hairs, it is a case for an incomplete canon of scripture. Which by the way, who was it that appointed men to determine this? Why were they the final authority on scriptural matters? Is it not possible.that their judgment was not sound?

The fact that Jude quotes from Jude, tells us that either Enoch is as inspired as the rest of scripture, or tue Bible borrows from uninspired sources, thus bringing the whole inspiration thing to a different set of questions. If the Bible is truely perfect then why would it borrow from.sources that are not as equally perfect???

 

[javajo]

What I am saying is Enoch did say what Jude said he said. But, the writer of the Book of Enoch took what Enoch said, and added his own stuff. That's my theory. I believe the Bible is inspired, but look at it how you like.

 

[nazz]

What I am saying is Enoch did say what Jude said he said. But, the writer of the Book of Enoch took what Enoch said, and added his own stuff. That's my theory. I believe the Bible is inspired, but look at it how you like.

OK, I think I now understand your position. I thought you were saying that Jude got it directly from Enoch somehow (not by reading it in the Book of Enoch).

 

[Shermana]

Absolutely. For one thing, the Ethiopian Bible includes Enoch and some other texts (Some of which I don't think belong like Clement, but others which seem fascinating like "Maccabayan" which are NOT the same as the Books of Macabees).

We also see that the Sinaiticus, the earliest known (mostly) full Bible, contains a favorite work of mine, the Shepherd of Hermas, but a work I don't approve of too much, the Epistle of Barnabas.

I also believe there's a lot of NT literature that SHOULD have been in but didn't make it. Like Gospel of Philip, which is arguably not as Gnostic as many make it to be.

We also see reference to the Book of Enoch in the "Testament of Naphtali", and I believe the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs may have seen circulation as Writ far earlier than scholars suggest, though in different pre-redacted forms, which we may see evidence of in the DSS.

Who is to say the Roman Canon was correct and not others?

And there's lots of OT Pseudipigrapha like "Assumption of Moses" that should have made it but we don't even have full surviving copies of, which Jude also quoted from.

For those who say he quoted Enoch, not the Book of Enoch, there's really no reason for this claim. The Early Church Fathers seem to indicate he was in fact referring to Enoch, so there's no reason to dismiss the Book of Enoch as pseudipigraphic. The reasons against it by the scholars are extremely flimsy, as if it was written the exact same time it was stored at the DSS.

 

[Pegg]

Why would the bible in the book of jude quote a passage out of that writing from enoch unless it ws insnspired?
Does the Bible use uninspired texts from other sources?

Moses wrote about Enoch as a man of faith who walked with God....Jude added the detail that Enoch prophesied against the wicked ones in his day (the pre flood people) just as Noah did. The prophecy he would have preached, like Noah, was of the coming deluge.

How did Moses know of Enoch's preaching? The same way he knew about he creation of Adam and Eve and the snake in the garden and the murder of Abel...God revealed the information to him. It wasnt because Enoch wrote his prophecy down....just as Noah didnt write his prophecy about the deluge down. Not all the prophets wrote their prophecies... only a small number of prophets actually wrote inspired messages under Gods direction. Other people are mentioned in the scriptures as prophets, but not all were required to write down their messages. The prophetess Deborah did not write anything down for example.

whoever it was who wrote the book of enoch ( and it wasnt Enoch himself ) did so without Gods permission. So the book is already based on falsehood for the reason that the writer wrote in the name of Enoch....God would never approve of such a deceptive method. Thats why some books are not a part of the cannon. Its not because there is a conspiracy, its because some books are not the real deal.

 

[Shermana]

whoever it was who wrote the book of enoch ( and it wasnt Enoch himself ) did so without Gods permission.

And how do we know this?

Other people are mentioned in the scriptures as prophets, but not all were required to write down their messages.

What about the myriads of works mentioned like in Chronicles, of "Iddo the Seer"? Where are they? Ascension of Isaiah was apparently canonical by the time of Chronicles. Why isn't it now?

Thats why some books are not a part of the cannon. Its not because there is a conspiracy, its because some books are not the real deal.

So why did the Romans get to decide what the real deal is and not the Ethiopians for example? Why do the Masoretic Jews get to decide on what was authentic but not the Qumran communities? Even the Rabbinicists disagreed on which works should be included. Do we go with Majority opinion?

 

[Barrackubus]

So when jesus quoted old testament scripture. It isn't evident that they came from the books you.assumed they came from?? And also there are alot of books in the old testament that had never at all been referred to in the new testamentc so because like the book of enoch.since they have escaped the minds of the writers of the new testament then they cannot be determined to be of apostolic.origin.
It's interesting to.me that the new testament contains a book.that is assumed to be written by the apostle paul, they have no.clue as to.who wrote it, the book of.hebrews, but yet we have a prominent old testament character with a book with.his name on it and it is.rejected, for no.other reason other than people not.being knowledgable.of.what it contains. Scholars vary on all sorts of opinion, just set with a baptist and a pentecostal, daylight and dark there.buddy. The point is nobody knows what is.inspired and what isn't, it is all handwrapped in a blanket of.faith that must be.swallowed and trusted without asking another set of questions. Show me where else or where Jude got the prophecy without consulting the.booj of enoch. If he was inspired by your holy spirit to.write it, then so was.the.person who wrote the.book of enoch from whence Jude obtained the prophecy...

 

[javajo]

So, we see there are various opinions on the Book of Enoch. It is my opinion that it is not inspired and I have said why I think that. It is a very interesting book and whatever one may believe about it, one need not throw out the entire Bible. Unless one is looking for any excuse to. In that case I would not discuss it any further since they have already made up their mind and are only trying to undermine the faith of others. (IMO)

Just to recap what I believe...Just because Jude quotes a line from the Book of Enoch does not mean the whole book is true, just that statement is. Just because one statement is inspired does not mean the whole book is. I don't believe Enoch wrote the Book of Enoch, yet I believe he said this and this was handed down and finally put in Jude. Paul quoted Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that doesn't mean all his writings were inspired. Anyway, if they're not in the Bible I think we should enjoy them and while many parts of them are true, they're not necessarily the inspired Word of God.