Is the Catholic Church a force of Evil?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How so? Is it not plausible that these particular priests were espousing their own views, and not those that are supported formally by the governing body of the Catholic church? If that was the case, how could it be considered part of the whole?

In the case of one priest, he was toured around from church to church by the local Archdiocese to drum up support against same-sex marriage. He was there deliberately.

Indeed, so how do we determine the beliefs of the Catholic Church as whole, when opinion's within the church can vary so greatly?

They're all part of "the Catholic Church as a whole". The Catholic Church is made up a wide spectrum of people and opinions. I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to have one homogenous set of beliefs.

 

[Sunstone]

Is it [the Catholic Church] a force of evil?

I wouldn't call the Catholic Church "a force of evil", because that seems to imply that it cannot also do some good. But I would say that there are so many problems with the Church, and the problems are so severe and enduring, that it seems to me highly likely the problems are in some way or another related to the structure of the Church.

That is, they are problems that are either caused by or are facilitated by the structure of the Church. It seems to me that anytime you have a hierarchical organization whose hierarchy is accountable only to itself, you will get abuse, you will get evil.

The Church, in my opinion, should throw the election of its hierarchy open to a majority vote of its members. And it should limit the terms of it's bishops, cardinals, and popes. For starters.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I wouldn't call the Catholic Church "a force of evil", because that seems to imply that it cannot also do some good. But I would say that there are so many problems with the Church, and the problems are so severe and enduring, that it seems to me highly likely the problems are in some way or another related to the structure of the Church.

That is, they are problems that are either caused by or are facilitated by the structure of the Church. It seems to me that anytime you have a hierarchical organization whose hierarchy is accountable only to itself, you will get abuse, you will get evil.

The Church, in my opinion, should throw the election of its hierarchy open to a majority vote of its members. And it should limit the terms of it's bishops, cardinals, and popes. For starters.

There definitely are problems with the structure of the Church. It's a big bureaucracy and many of the upper levels of the clergy are rather power hungry. I think Pope Francis is certainly trying to make things better and trying to focus the Church on her true mission but it's going to take a very long time for substantial change to happen.

Making it a democracy is one appealing option.

 

[Bunyip]

Sadly yes. It has enabled and assisted in child abuse on an incomprehensible scale.

 

[fantome profane]

Naw, sorry the official teaching of the Catholic church is far more progressive than what you state.

Catholic teaching condemns homosexual acts as gravely immoral, while holding that homosexual persons "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity", and "every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided", in line with the traditional saying: "Love the sinner, hate the sin."[37] "The Catholic Church holds that, as a state beyond a person's choice, being homosexual is not wrong or sinful in itself. But just as it is objectively wrong for unmarried heterosexuals to engage in sex, so too are homosexual acts considered to be wrong."[38]

Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Granted, the church has had mixed actions regarding LGBT rights in different circumstances, and many church officials have definitely made anti-gay statement's and encouraged movements against gay rights, but again you must judge the person, not the generalized belief system. I will definitely agree with you that the general attitude toward the LGBT community is not as progressive as I would like to see, I guarantee that there official view is far more progressive than many other religions, and that there are many Catholic's with very positive attitudes toward the LGBT community.

Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am personally horrified at what you consider "progressive". Perhaps what the fractional penguin states is correct, we are setting the bar much much to low.

 

[fantome profane]

Making it a democracy is one appealing option.

Time for the "Kingdom of God" to become the "Democratic Republic of God"?

 

[ChristineES]

Time for the "Kingdom of God" to become the "Democratic Republic of God"?

It seems that men are running it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There definitely are problems with the structure of the Church. It's a big bureaucracy and many of the upper levels of the clergy are rather power hungry. I think Pope Francis is certainly trying to make things better and trying to focus the Church on her true mission but it's going to take a very long time for substantial change to happen.

Making it a democracy is one appealing option.

I think the jury's still out on Francis. I can't help but notice that he rose to power through those upper levels of the clergy that you claim are power-hungry. Typically, people who aren't power-hungry themselves don't end up winning power battles against large groups of power-hungry people.

... but I do agree with you that it will take a long time for the Church to change. This is a big part of why we need to stop handing them power without proper oversight.

Rather than waiting for them to slowly come to the realization that they shouldn't steal babies from their mothers, or enslave women in Magdalene Laundries, or facilitate child abusers, we should just stop entrusting them with hospitals, vulnerable people, and police files on pedophile priests under the assumption that the Church will do the right thing. We shouldn't be entrusting anybody with these sorts of things without proper accountability and oversight.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think the jury's still out on Francis. I can't help but notice that he rose to power through those upper levels of the clergy that you claim are power-hungry. Typically, people who aren't power-hungry themselves don't end up winning power battles against large groups of power-hungry people.

I said "many", not most or all. I don't really know what the atmosphere is like in the highest levels of the Church, to be honest. Francis is trying to make changes, though, so I wouldn't say it's completely corrupt.

Rather than waiting for them to slowly come to the realization that they shouldn't steal babies from their mothers, or enslave women in Magdalene Laundries, or facilitate child abusers,

Those things are pretty much in the past. The asylums don't exist anymore, I know of no recent examples of baby stealing and all the abuse cases I've heard of are from decades ago (when it comes to when they happened).

we should just stop entrusting them with hospitals, vulnerable people, and police files on pedophile priests under the assumption that the Church will do the right thing. We shouldn't be entrusting anybody with these sorts of things without proper accountability and oversight.

Shutting down social services is not the answer.

 

[fantome profane]

I said "many", not most or all. I don't really know what the atmosphere is like in the highest levels of the Church, to be honest. Francis is trying to make changes, though, so I wouldn't say it's completely corrupt.

Those things are pretty much in the past. The asylums don't exist anymore, I know of no recent examples of baby stealing and all the abuse cases I've heard of are from decades ago (when it comes to when they happened).

Shutting down social services is not the answer.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but how old are you? You obviously don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I start to wonder when people talk about things happening "decades ago" as if that makes them ancient history. To me "decades ago" means recent history. (I'm old)

All crimes were committed "pretty much in the past". Days, weeks, years, decades, makes no difference. There is a reason there is no statute of limitations on serious crimes.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I hope you don't mind me asking, but how old are you? You obviously don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I start to wonder when people talk about things happening "decades ago" as if that makes them ancient history. To me "decades ago" means recent history. (I'm old)

All crimes were committed "pretty much in the past". Days, weeks, years, decades, makes no difference. There is a reason there is no statute of limitations on serious crimes.

I'm 24. Pretty much all the abuse cases I've heard of had the abuse happening in the '60s and before. If there's cases where the abuse happened in the '90s, '00s and this decade, I would like to be filled in with some sources. I just haven't heard of it.

 

[jimniki]

It seems that men are running it.

who do you suggest should run it? Women?

Women have no rights in the eyes of God do they?

All these sacred books written a long time ago were written by men and for men. (it was the social norm of the day)

That's why I have no time for religion (nothing to do with belief in god).

they're just books on how to live your life "their" way.
Ladies, cover your faces, because we said so!
Gays, we're out to kill you ...because we (I mean god) said so!

You want a true and pure spiritual one on one connection with god?
Bypass the middle man, bypass corruption and greed.

just my 2 cents...

 

[ChristineES]

who do you suggest should run it? Women?

Women have no rights in the eyes of God do they?

All these sacred books written a long time ago were written by men and for men. (it was the social norm of the day)

That's why I have no time for religion (nothing to do with belief in god).

they're just books on how to live your life "their" way.
Ladies, cover your faces, because we said so!
Gays, we're out to kill you ...because we (I mean god) said so!

You want a true and pure spiritual one on one connection with god?
Bypass the middle man, bypass corruption and greed.

just my 2 cents...

I meant "men" as in humans. Not men as "not women". The rest of it has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Putting church doctrine before the well being of MILLIONS is callous.

Hiding evidence of child sexual abuse is criminal.

Slaughter of untold millions across the centuries is psychotic

Having untold wealth whilst preaching charity is hypocritical

The church doesn't get to go "we are allowed to get away with all this horrid behaviour because we do nice things as well.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I said "many", not most or all. I don't really know what the atmosphere is like in the highest levels of the Church, to be honest. Francis is trying to make changes, though, so I wouldn't say it's completely corrupt.

Those things are pretty much in the past. The asylums don't exist anymore, I know of no recent examples of baby stealing and all the abuse cases I've heard of are from decades ago (when it comes to when they happened).

Shutting down social services is not the answer.

Who said anything about shutting down social services?

Heck... I'm not necessarily even talking about cutting Catholic groups out of the loop. Here in Ontario, there are Catholic hospitals that I generally don't have a problem with (their refusal to offer certain basic services is an issue, but not on the scale of outright abuse or human trafficking) - the difference between the Ontario situation and the scandals we've been talking about is that these Catholic hospitals are subject to the same inspections and governmental oversight as the secular ones. The Catholic hospitals and social services organizations have to meet the same standards as any government contractor. The government doesn't assume that they'll be awesome just because they're religious.

I'm 24. Pretty much all the abuse cases I've heard of had the abuse happening in the '60s and before. If there's cases where the abuse happened in the '90s, '00s and this decade, I would like to be filled in with some sources. I just haven't heard of it.

The last Magdalene Laundry in Ireland closed in 1996: Magdalene asylum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The baby trafficking in Spain ended in 1989, and only because that's when the Spanish government took control of the hospitals, not because the Catholic religious orders running them had a change of heart.

It was only 2010 when the Vatican moved Cardinal Law out of the country as he was being subpoenaed with regard to a sex abuse cover-up case: http://www.newsweek.com/pope-should-be-questioned-sex-abuse-cases-70573

 

[Alceste]

I've been thinking of the Catholic Church in the light of the recently found mass grave containing the bodies of some 8oo babies in Ireland.

I was thinking that most of the unfortunates who were forced to give birth in the 'mother and baby homes' were probably there as a direct consequence of the Catholic Church's teachings on contraception. This mindless madness is still inflicted upon many around the world.

Infanticide is merely the latest in a long list of horrors to come to light that the Catholic Church has been involved in. Is it a force of evil?

Nah. The Catholic church is a human institution with an authoritarian structure. Whether it is evil or good very much depends on who is in charge. The current pope is trying his darnedest to transform the church into a force for good, and I wish him the best of luck. Other popes in other times, including Ratzinger, have either tolerated, defended or promoted terrible crimes against humanity, leaving many if not most non-Catholics feeling that the religion itself is evil.

 

[Alceste]

I recently had a very interesting trip to your country. Amongst other things I had the chance to listen to the stories of some First Nations people. I found the parallels with the institutional abuse of vulnerable people in Ireland astonishing.

Yeah, it's appalling. The death rate in some residential schools here was close to 50%. The majority of those schools were controlled by the united church - a protestant evangelical denomination which is actually quite liberal in comparison.

OTOH, those kids for the most part weren't murdered. Most of them died due to lack of adequate nutrition and sanitation. That was partly a consequence of inadequate funding by the nominally secular government, who spent two or three times as much per student on "white" schools.

If you're interested in the subject, this is informative:

CBCNews.ca Mobile

 

[Vouthon]

Nah. The Catholic church is a human institution with an authoritarian structure. Whether it is evil or good very much depends on who is in charge.

What I think is also important is that the CC doesn't deny that its members have committed egregious wrongs in the past:

"...Throughout the ages the Church has kept safe and handed on the doctrine received from the Master and from the apostles. In the life of the People of God, as it has made its pilgrim way through the vicissitudes of human history, there has at times appeared a way of acting that was hardly in accord with the spirit of the Gospel or even opposed to it..."

- DIGNITATIS HUMANAE (Vatican II Declaration), 1965

"...The primary duty [of Catholics] is to make a careful and honest appraisal of whatever needs to be done or renewed in the Catholic household itself, in order that its life may bear witness more clearly and faithfully to the teachings and institutions which have come to it from Christ through the Apostles.

For although the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace, yet its members fail to live by them with all the fervor that they should, so that the radiance of the Church's image is less clear in the eyes of our separated brethren and of the world at large, and the growth of God's kingdom is delayed. All Catholics must therefore aim at Christian perfection(24) and, each according to his station, play his part that the Church may daily be more purified and renewed...

Every renewal of the Church is essentially grounded in an increase of fidelity to her own calling. Undoubtedly this is the basis of the movement toward unity.

Christ summons the Church to continual reformation as she sojourns here on earth. The Church is always in need of this, in so far as she is an institution of men here on earth. Thus if, in various times and circumstances, there have been deficiencies in moral conduct or in church discipline, or even in the way that church teaching has been formulated-to be carefully distinguished from the deposit of faith itself-these can and should be set right at the opportune moment...."

- Unitatis Redintegratio (Vatican II Decree), 1965

Also, some of the greatest critics of the church historically have been faithful Catholics such as St. Hildegard of Bingen, St. Catherine of Sienna and St. Francis of Assisi.

St. Hildegard wrote this in a letter to Pope Anastasius IV:

“...O man, you who sit on the papal throne, you despise God when you don’t hurl from yourself the evil but even worse, embrace it and kiss it by silently tolerating corrupt men. . .And you, O Rome, are like one in the throes of death. You will be so shaken that the strength of your feet, the feet on which you now stand, will disappear. For you don’t love the King’s daughter, justice...”

I doubt that even any non-Catholic has been so forthright in their condemnations, yet St. Hildegard is today a Doctor of the Church.

Or consider Saint Symeon (949–1022 AD). In one of his hymns, Saint Symeon had Christ speaking the following rebuke to the bishops:

"...They (the bishops) unworthily handle My Body
and seek avidly to dominate the masses...
They are seen to appear as brilliant and pure,
but their souls are worse than mud and dirt,
worse even than any kind of deadly poison,
these evil and perverse men!" (Hymn 58)

He was canonized.

 

[melosh]

I've been thinking of the Catholic Church in the light of the recently found mass grave containing the bodies of some 8oo babies in Ireland.

I was thinking that most of the unfortunates who were forced to give birth in the 'mother and baby homes' were probably there as a direct consequence of the Catholic Church's teachings on contraception. This mindless madness is still inflicted upon many around the world.

Infanticide is merely the latest in a long list of horrors to come to light that the Catholic Church has been involved in. Is it a force of evil?

To many people, someone isn't a person until they can talk and express their views. Most cultures, added to this, feel that someone isn't a person until they come into puberty. That is why we don't care about animal rights, for they never reach the first stage.

 

[columbus]

I've been thinking of the Catholic Church in the light of the recently found mass grave containing the bodies of some 8oo babies in Ireland.

I was thinking that most of the unfortunates who were forced to give birth in the 'mother and baby homes' were probably there as a direct consequence of the Catholic Church's teachings on contraception. This mindless madness is still inflicted upon many around the world.

Infanticide is merely the latest in a long list of horrors to come to light that the Catholic Church has been involved in. Is it a force of evil?

Given that the RCC has always taught that sex outside of marriage is unacceptable the victims of those horrible places were unlikely to be a result of teachings about contraception.

And think about this: why did those mothers wind up there? It's because nobody else cared even that much. Life was a ***** for most everybody. Get knocked up and you were done for. It isn't like the rest of the world was any improvement.

Tom