Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 'Christian'.

[metis]

Does the LDS teach a belief in Jesus?
Yes.


Does that make them Christians?
Yes.

Problem solved.

 

[Sonny]

I suspect you know that this holds little water, but are attempting to discredit Mormonism in favour of your version of "the Truth". Most Christ-like.

The logic is sound. Your understanding of it may not be. Do you want me to explain it differently so you understand the point?

Donald Trump is not a social identity. That is a particular individual. Do I have to say that?

It was an analogy to make a point. Did you miss it?

You

say Christianity teaches X and therefore those who don't believe X aren't Christians. Someone else says Christianity teaches Y and therefore those who don't believe Y aren't Christians. The only fair way of doing this is accepting all those who call themselves Christians as Christians, lest you claim some unique divine authority to discern the "true doctrine".

No, I don't say anything, the Bible does. It has tests we can use to determine if a group are Christians or "liars" (Rev. 2:2). If we can't test what they say and do then, frankly, 'anything goes' and Jeremiah 59 is fulfilled- 'Justice has fallen in the streets and truth cannot be found'.
The Bible is the 'unique claim [to] divine authority' that you have left out of the equation. Apply it and you will know who is and who isn't what they claim. In false religions/cult-like groups it is easy to tell the real from the not real. I believe if we use the tests given in the Bible (for the Bible, too) we will never wonder again about what constitutes Christianity. And, I'm certain, we'll know the posers from the true-believers.

 

[Sonny]

This is a laughably academic discussion anyway since only followers of the One True Church of Erotic Dancing Girls are going to heaven anyway. But carry on with your pathetic delusions, by all means.

To each his own, right?

 

[Sonny]

@Sonny, you haven't been here a huge amount of time, so I think at this point it is worth my reminding you of the rules and ethos of RF. RF is based on the ideal of fruitful and open dialogue between people of different faith traditions and of none. Trying to preach your own religion or denomination, and not listening to other people and learning from them, is clearly going against that ethos. It is plainly stated in the RF Rules, which you can access from the top of the page, that preaching your religion, and even coming out and stating the truth of your doctrine, is not OK.

If you want to preach your religion, I am sure you can have opportunities to do so - plenty of evangelical American groups fund missionaries to go out and preach their brand of Christianity in Sub-Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia etc. There are also liberal Christian American groups which volunteer in and pay for hospitals, orphanages and disease prevention programs in these areas of the world.

But RF is not the place for preaching your religion or trying to discredit anybody.

Whoa! Wait a second. I have not preached anything to anyone. Sure, I profess belief in Jesus and His word, the Bible, but others profess equally sincere and deeply held beliefs in their respective belief systems. I simply started a Thread with a question. The rest is the result of that. Bc you don't like what I say doesn't mean I am doing the things you 'want' me to be doing. I am simply stating WHY Mormonism is not a Christian sect. I am sorry if that offends you but giving explanations and definitions of why the LDS is not Christian is not preaching. When have I ever said 'join my church' or 'I'll help you eave your church to be a member of mine'? If never then you are wrong in your assumptions.
Most of what I have stated is LDS doctrine. In fact, I was chastised by a poster bc I didn't explain Christian beliefs. Both of you can't be right. But if I have I will stop. I would like for you to post where I have been preaching my religion.
I'm not discrediting anyone. I am merely posting reasons why the Mormon church is not a Christian church. We are pointing out the differences between the two using (mostly) LDS teachings. How else do we learn the truth (such as, LDS is not a Christian church) if not for posting and reading? If I have done some wrong then this Thread should not have been allowed to get started. I think you just don't want to see the facts that show LDS is not Christian. I mean no offense to anyone but you can't have discussions about truth w/o evidence.

 

[Sonny]

@Sonny, do read and pay attention to the above post.

I did. And, replied. I will also go read the rules again to make doubly certain I am within them. Thanks.

 

[Sonny]

The relevant question is:-

Can we consistently keep Mormons in Christianity while keeping Muslims out of Christianity?

Not really. Anyone can be a Christian. Muslims don't want to be. Mormons do. The only way (once again) to know who is and who isn't a Christian is by following/reading the universal accepted Scriptures and comparing them to what the others (whoever they are) belief/teach. Right?
I am not saying Christianity is false or any other group is. But I am stating my opinion, as the OP says, how to know if a particular group is what they claim to be, Christian. And we do that by posting what each believes and let all others decide for themselves.

 

[Sonny]

Are they (LDS) Christian? From previous posts of mine you know that I am not in the habit of choosing who is or is not a Christian. That is a personal thing between an individual and God. Not for me or any one else to make that judgment. That being said I will offer this opinion for the sake of the OP. By definition I personally recognize the LDS Church as a Christian denomination as they believe in and follow the teachings of Christ. Do their beliefs match up with say a Baptist or Lutheran (just for example sake)? Some , but not entirely. I personally believe that all the denominations fail in many areas, which is why I make no judgment on who gets to be a Christian. As far as the definition of Christian ,I go no further than John, 3:16. Past that , we must each do as the Bible says and "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling." We are also told to "examine ourselves that we be worthy." OK, I'm finished now.

How do we know anything in life (Physics, Astronomy, Geology, Geography, History) if we don't use a pattern or a standard in measuring? You seem, to me anyway, to think that just bc someone says it that makes them it. I've asked this before, can I be the POTUS just by saying I am? There are rules, guidelines and standards that must be used and applied in every arena of life. imho

 

[Kirran]

Whoa! Wait a second. I have not preached anything to anyone. Sure, I profess belief in Jesus and His word, the Bible, but others profess equally sincere and deeply held beliefs in their respective belief systems. I simply started a Thread with a question. The rest is the result of that. Bc you don't like what I say doesn't mean I am doing the things you 'want' me to be doing. I am simply stating WHY Mormonism is not a Christian sect. I am sorry if that offends you but giving explanations and definitions of why the LDS is not Christian is not preaching. When have I ever said 'join my church' or 'I'll help you eave your church to be a member of mine'? If never then you are wrong in your assumptions.
Most of what I have stated is LDS doctrine. In fact, I was chastised by a poster bc I didn't explain Christian beliefs. Both of you can't be right. But if I have I will stop. I would like for you to post where I have been preaching my religion.
I'm not discrediting anyone. I am merely posting reasons why the Mormon church is not a Christian church. We are pointing out the differences between the two using (mostly) LDS teachings. How else do we learn the truth (LDS is not a Christian church) if not for posting and reading? If I have done some wrong then this Thread should not have been allowed to get started. I think you just don't want to see the facts that show LDS is not Christian. I mean no offense to anyone but you can't have discussions about truth w/o evidence.

You have not started a thread with a question. You have started a thread hoping to prove to people your answer to a question. This is against the ethos of RF. You do not get to tell somebody else what their religion is, it doesn't work like that. All you can say with any validity is that you see their understanding to be in error or misguided.

 

[Sonny]

This is not what I meant at all. I was discussing theological boundaries between various religions.

It didn't seem that way to me. I misunderstood your point then. I stand corrected.

As a thread starter, how can you possibly think of having a balanced discussion if you have such a negative attitude towards Mormons? And how did the Puritan and Protestant America act towards native Indians? How did they behave towards African slaves? There is plenty of blood in the ledger of all religions. If you are planning to have a discussion based on tenets of the religion, I am in, otherwise I will not comment further.

How is my posting reasons (LDS teachings/doctrines) why the LDS is not a Christian church "such a negative attitude towards Mormons"? In case you haven't noticed I have been posting the LDS church's and its leader's own words. How is that negative? It's their own words as to what their LDS doctrines/beliefs are. Are you saying the LDS leaders are being negative to their own church? That's absurd, to me at least. Hey, they said it and I am only posting it to show the OP.
I (we) are not bashing anyone. What I post 'are' their own words as to what they believe. If you find that offensive or mean email them bc your concerns are more about what they taught, printed and published than they are about me simply 'repeating' what the LDS leaders/church taught, printed and published for the world to read...and post somewhere.

 

[Sonny]

How do prophecies prove anything?

Good question. I wish more acted like this instead of becoming ravenous wolves ready for the slaughter of little Ol' me- that's how I read some anyway.
A prophecy tells the world whether or not a church/group, therefore, a God, is real or imagined and invented (my personal opinion, y'all). IF a prophecy comes true- in a way that is impossible to know the results before they occur- then it is clear that, indeed, whoever gave it had insights no one else had. And, he had access to God bc only God can see the future so clear as to tell us, in precise and minute detail, what will happen and how- sometimes by who.
For ex. one religion states that something from outer space is going to hit the earth with so much force that it will knock the earth off its Axis. That will shift the Poles and create mayhem and havoc on...well...a biblical scale. Today, after more than 2,000 years since that prophecy was issued, we know for a fact that will happen one day. But no one knew it back then bc no one wrote about it. There are other prophecies that are as bad as that one that has occurred or we can see it coming- like a 200 Million-man Army (3 entities can muster that many today, the UN, China and India). That war will also use Nukes, as also described in the Bible. No other book, that I know of, has ever given one prophecy that either compares or came to pass. If you know of one please provide it for all of us, k? Thanks.
Also, if another church/group issues prophecies and they don't come true then they aren't. I have yet to read prophecies from some groups that have come true. There is always some (to me) slight-of-hand going on.

 

[Sonny]

Why so serious, Batman?

Your use of the words "pathetic delusions". There is nothing on earth as important as knowing God to me. I can't imagine not knowing Him or studying everything I can to know who He is and what church, if any, He is in. Then, holding on to that with all of your might and letting others know what you found out. You seemed to be trashing a pretty good bunch of posters. I thot that was quite unfair.

 

[Sonny]

You can decide for yourself very easily. Someone else can decide for themselves too, but there's no reason to assume the two of you would agree.

Also, do take note that the continued preaching and the painting of Latter-Day Saints as bloodthirsty etc is going to get you unwelcome on RF very quickly. Please do take note. More people on RF are great to have, we need a diversity of voices, but people need to be polite and respectful.

Agreed. So how would YOU describe what took place on September 11, 1857 at MMM?

 

[Sonny]

Does the LDS teach a belief in Jesus?
Yes.


Does that make them Christians?
Yes.

Problem solved.

What if they taught something that historic Christianity calls wrong? What then? How do we prove one is what one claims to be? What are the rules or tests we use? Physics has rules- multiply, divide, add, subtract. Math doesn't work if the Order or Operation is not adhered to. What is the Order of Operation for religion? Most say the Bible. Then, what?

 

[David1967]

You seem, to me anyway, to think that just bc someone says it that makes them it.

Of course not everyone who says they are something actually are. I could say that I am a doctor but without the degree and license, of course I am not. But in the case of religion (Christianity per this thread) it is not the same since it is based on faith as well as interpretation of scripture. A Mormon believes this, a Baptist believes this , a Jehovah's Witness believes this, a Catholic believes this way, and so on, and all have scripture to validate their way of thinking. I am not saying everyone is right. With the vast differences in beliefs that would not be possible. However what is possible, and I am an advocate of this, is polite and respectful discussion between people of differing faiths without the use of words like "false" to describe them. I believe we can learn much from each other through friendly dialogue. Some things we learn may better validate our own way of thinking where some bring to light some inconsistencies in our own thought. At least that is my experience.

 

[Kirran]

Agreed. So how would YOU describe what took place on September 11, 1857 at MMM?

A group of settlers were killed by the Utah Territorial Militia along with some Paiute native people.

 

[Sonny]

You have not started a thread with a question. You have started a thread hoping to prove to people your answer to a question. This is against the ethos of RF. You do not get to tell somebody else what their religion is, it doesn't work like that. All you can say with any validity is that you see their understanding to be in error or misguided.

Sorry you missed it but the OP IS a question. Unreal!
Also, I have been contacted by the Mods. I have started doing what they said I should. I believe I am on track now. If you find a post that isn't let me know and I will edit it immediately.
I'm not telling anyone what they believe. I an showing everyone what THEY said they believe. Why so much hate for the truth? If it is true (proven by evidence, naturally, and not spear-dipped in blood) and I am only (must I say it again? I must!) 'repeating' what they said was their doctrines/beliefs in an effort to discover if they are a 'Christian' sect then what is the matter? I am saying what THEY said.

 

[Kirran]

Sorry you missed it but the OP IS a question. Unreal!
Also, I have been contacted by the Mods. I have started doing what they said I should. I believe I am on track now. If you find a post that isn't let me know and I will edit it immediately.
I'm not telling anyone what they believe. I an showing everyone what THEY said they believe. Why so much hate for the truth? If it is true (proven by evidence, naturally, and not spear-dipped in blood) and I am only (must I say it again? I must!) 'repeating' what they said was their doctrines/beliefs in an effort to discover if they are a 'Christian' sect then what is the matter? I am saying what THEY said. [Ok, Sorry- bc caps were screaming in this instance. Frustration to ignorance is impossible to deny]

Yes, I think you have come on track since I originally posted about that.

You are saying your take on their doctrines and saying why they don't strike you as Christian. That's OK, but then you take that to mean they aren't Christian when they totally believe themselves to be, and that doesn't really make sense.

 

[Katzpur]

You are saying your take on their doctrines and saying why they don't strike you as Christian.

Except that almost none of what Sonny has said are LDS doctrines actually are. Most of his claims about what we believe and teach are so far-fetched as to hardly even resemble our actual beliefs. So far, he has been corrected by Scott C., dianaiad, Deep Shadow and me -- four active, believing Mormons with a far more extensive background in the religion than his. But that's not good enough, because he continues to insist that we are either (1) lying about what our doctrines are or (2) ignorant of what our doctrines are. And correcting him is absolutely pointless.

 

[Kirran]

Except that almost none of what Sonny has said are LDS doctrines actually are. So far, he has been corrected by me, Scott C., dianaiad, and Deep Shadow. But that's not good enough, because he continues to insist that we are either (1) lying about what our doctrines are or (2) ignorant of what our doctrines are. And correcting him is fruitless.

Interesting. That's a very similar strategy to the one I see some members employing with Muslims. "Taqiya! Taqiya!"

 

[metis]

What if they taught something that historic Christianity calls wrong?

"Historic Christianity" was all over the board on so many different teachings. So, where I'm coming from on this can be found in John 3:16, which I'm quite sure you're familiar with.