Is The Koran taken as its face value by Muslims or are they free to research its truth?

[Indian Iconoclast]

[FONT=&quot]IS A VERSE FROM THE QURAN (EVEN IF OPENED AND QUOTED BY AN UNEDUCATED AND IGNORANT NON MUSLIM) NOT TO BE TAKEN AT ITS FACE VALUE? DO THE DEVOUT MUSLIMS INVESTIGATE EVERY VERSE, LINE OR WORD FROM THE QURAN THAT THEY READ AND NOT TAKE THEM AT THEIR FACE VALUE? DOES ISLAM TEACH ITS FOLLOWERS THE PRINCIPLE OF INVESTIGATING THE CONTENTS OF QURAN AND NOT PUTTING ABSOLUTE FAITH IN THEM?

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"MAN ZE QURAAN MAGHZ RA BARDAASHTAM! ISTAKHAAN PESH E SAGAAN ANDAAKHTAM!" (I HAVE SAVORED ONLY THE BRAINS FROM THE QURAAN AND HAVE THROWN THE BONES TO THE DOGS FOR THEIR CONTENTION) ~ MAULANA JALALUDDIN RUMI. Quoted from his world famous book Al Mathnawi Al Maanawi (Persian):yes:
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[DawudTalut]

[FONT=&quot]IS A VERSE FROM THE QURAN (EVEN IF OPENED AND QUOTED BY AN UNEDUCATED AND IGNORANT NON MUSLIM) NOT TO BE TAKEN AT ITS FACE VALUE? DO THE DEVOUT MUSLIMS INVESTIGATE EVERY VERSE, LINE OR WORD FROM THE QURAN THAT THEY READ AND NOT TAKE THEM AT THEIR FACE VALUE? DOES ISLAM TEACH ITS FOLLOWERS THE PRINCIPLE OF INVESTIGATING THE CONTENTS OF QURAN AND NOT PUTTING ABSOLUTE FAITH IN THEM?

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"MAN ZE QURAAN MAGHZ RA BARDAASHTAM! ISTAKHAAN PESH E SAGAAN ANDAAKHTAM!" (I HAVE SAVORED ONLY THE BRAINS FROM THE QURAAN AND HAVE THROWN THE BONES TO THE DOGS FOR THEIR CONTENTION) ~ MAULANA JALALUDDIN RUMI. Quoted from his world famous book Al Mathnawi Al Maanawi (Persian):yes:
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Peace be on you.
1-FULL TRUST

[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
[2:4] Who believe in the unseen and observe Prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
[2:5] And who believe in that which has been revealed to thee, and that which was revealed before thee, and they have firm faith in what is yet to come.
[2:6] It is they who follow the guidance of their Lord and it is they who shall prosper.



2-OBEY

[2:286]This Messenger of Ours believes in that which has been revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers: all of them believe in Allah, and in His angels, and in His Books, and in His Messengers, saying, ‘We make no distinction between any of His Messengers;’ and they say, ‘We hear, and we obey. We implore Thy forgiveness, O our Lord, and to Thee is the returning.’




3-MEDITATE UPON HOLY QURAN

[4:83]Will they not, then, meditate upon the Qur’an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much disagreement.


[25:74]And those who, when they are reminded of the Signs of their Lord, fall not deaf and blind thereat;


[47:25]Will they not, then, ponder over the Qur’an, or is it that on the hearts are their locks?


[16:45](We sent Our Messengers) with clear Signs and Scriptures. And We have sent down to thee the Reminder that thou mayest explain to mankind that which has been sent down to them, and that they may reflect.



References http://www.alislam.org/quran/ (Commentaries are present here too)

 

[Union]

[FONT=&quot]IS A VERSE FROM THE QURAN (EVEN IF OPENED AND QUOTED BY AN UNEDUCATED AND IGNORANT NON MUSLIM) NOT TO BE TAKEN AT ITS FACE VALUE? DO THE DEVOUT MUSLIMS INVESTIGATE EVERY VERSE, LINE OR WORD FROM THE QURAN THAT THEY READ AND NOT TAKE THEM AT THEIR FACE VALUE? DOES ISLAM TEACH ITS FOLLOWERS THE PRINCIPLE OF INVESTIGATING THE CONTENTS OF QURAN AND NOT PUTTING ABSOLUTE FAITH IN THEM?

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"MAN ZE QURAAN MAGHZ RA BARDAASHTAM! ISTAKHAAN PESH E SAGAAN ANDAAKHTAM!" (I HAVE SAVORED ONLY THE BRAINS FROM THE QURAAN AND HAVE THROWN THE BONES TO THE DOGS FOR THEIR CONTENTION) ~ MAULANA JALALUDDIN RUMI. Quoted from his world famous book Al Mathnawi Al Maanawi (Persian):yes:
[/FONT]

Are you talking about reading in any non-Arabic Qur'an ? If its so , then you may able to get 0-100% right meaning of it . Hence you may loose , you may win , But if you read and study it Arabic , then you must be getting the right message .

Also bear in mind that one sentence of Qur'an may be explained by another in somewhere else . In this way Almighty GOD is tactfully forcing the reader to study the whole Qur'an very carefully .

 

[Indian Iconoclast]

Sholem Alaikhem DawudTalut!

Thanks for your translations from the Al Baqreh the 2nd Verse appearing in the Musshaf Al Uthmani the authorized copy of God's Lectures that the Peaceful all over the world (despite sect difference and enmity inter se) believe in and claim strict adherence and abidance to.

My question had originally been put forward to a Peaceful of this forum on the subject of friendship or enmity between the Peaceful and those of the books I. e., the Ahl Alkitaab in other words the Jews and the Christians to which my answer was that the Lectures very strongly forbade any friendship of that nature, and thus any Peaceful true to his faith in the Lectures, should refrain from befriending a Jew or a Christian. That Peaceful member of this forum had replied to me that the idea of a forbidden by faith, friendship between a Muslim with a Jew or a Christian was not the opinion of the majority of the Peaceful and restricted to only a few!

I had quoted as such from the lectures:~
"O THOSE THAT BELIEVE! MAKE NO FRIENDS OF THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS! FOR THE FRIENDSHIP OF SOME LEADS TO THE WAYS OF SOME! AND HE AMONGST YOU THAT BEFRIENDS THEM (JEWS AND CHRISTIANS) TODAY SHALL BE COUNTED VERILY AS ONE OF THEM (TOMORROW ON THE DOOMSDAY)! AND GOD INDEED DOES NOT LEAD THE TRIBES THAT SPREAD DARKNESS (TO BLISS AND ENLIGHTENMENT)!

ARABIC TRANSLITERATION: YA AIYYUHALLAZEENA AAMANOU! LAA TATTAKHAZAL YAHUDA WAN NASAARA! AULIYA'A BAA'DAHUM AULIYAA 'I BAA'DIN! FAMAN YATAWALLAHUM MINKUM FA INNAHU MINHUM! INNALLAH LAA YAHDIL QAUMAZZAALIMEEN!

Thus the Lectures forbid the friendship of Jews and Christians! The only concession of association afforded to Jews and Christians by the Peaceful are that the chaste (Assuaalihaat), Jewish and Christian women that as such can be accepted as brides in marriage by the Peaceful! Prior to these weddings. the Lectures (Surah Al Baqreh) forbade marriage of both Peaceful men and women to infidels like Jews and Christians! That concession (Surah Al Maaideh) still continues the earlier forbidding of marriage by Peaceful females to Jewish and Christian men.

Any friendship thus is not to be seen as REAL between the Peaceful and the Jews and the Christians in the name of the Worshiped the Merciful the Benevolent!

The question remaining un answered here is, are the Peaceful to follow God's commandment given above in the Lectures, or are they free to befriend Jews and Christians against these commands?

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SHEMA YESROEL! ADUNAAI ELOHENNU! ADUNAAI EHAAD!

 

[Union]

Sholem Alaikhem DawudTalut!

Thanks for your translations from the Al Baqreh the 2nd Verse appearing in the Musshaf Al Uthmani the authorized copy of God's Lectures that the Peaceful all over the world (despite sect difference and enmity inter se) believe in and claim strict adherence and abidance to.

My question had originally been put forward to a Peaceful of this forum on the subject of friendship or enmity between the Peaceful and those of the books I. e., the Ahl Alkitaab in other words the Jews and the Christians to which my answer was that the Lectures very strongly forbade any friendship of that nature, and thus any Peaceful true to his faith in the Lectures, should refrain from befriending a Jew or a Christian. That Peaceful member of this forum had replied to me that the idea of a forbidden by faith, friendship between a Muslim with a Jew or a Christian was not the opinion of the majority of the Peaceful and restricted to only a few!

I had quoted as such from the lectures:~
"O THOSE THAT BELIEVE! MAKE NO FRIENDS OF THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS! FOR THE FRIENDSHIP OF SOME LEADS TO THE WAYS OF SOME! AND HE AMONGST YOU THAT BEFRIENDS THEM (JEWS AND CHRISTIANS) TODAY SHALL BE COUNTED VERILY AS ONE OF THEM (TOMORROW ON THE DOOMSDAY)! AND GOD INDEED DOES NOT LEAD THE TRIBES THAT SPREAD DARKNESS (TO BLISS AND ENLIGHTENMENT)!

ARABIC TRANSLITERATION: YA AIYYUHALLAZEENA AAMANOU! LAA TATTAKHAZAL YAHUDA WAN NASAARA! AULIYA'A BAA'DAHUM AULIYAA 'I BAA'DIN! FAMAN YATAWALLAHUM MINKUM FA INNAHU MINHUM! INNALLAH LAA YAHDIL QAUMAZZAALIMEEN!

Thus the Lectures forbid the friendship of Jews and Christians! The only concession of association afforded to Jews and Christians by the Peaceful are that the chaste (Assuaalihaat), Jewish and Christian women that as such can be accepted as brides in marriage by the Peaceful! Prior to these weddings. the Lectures (Surah Al Baqreh) forbade marriage of both Peaceful men and women to infidels like Jews and Christians! That concession (Surah Al Maaideh) still continues the earlier forbidding of marriage by Peaceful females to Jewish and Christian men.

Any friendship thus is not to be seen as REAL between the Peaceful and the Jews and the Christians in the name of the Worshiped the Merciful the Benevolent!

The question remaining un answered here is, are the Peaceful to follow God's commandment given above in the Lectures, or are they free to befriend Jews and Christians against these commands?

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SHEMA YESROEL! ADUNAAI ELOHENNU! ADUNAAI EHAAD!

You are taking the verse out of the context . The verse should be understood along with its immediate preceding verse :

[005:050] Is it then the judgment of ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure?
[005:051] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

This verse is taking about those Christians and Jews who follow the judgment of ignorance (Hukuma Jahiliya) and not the just judgment of GOD , the Almighty . Hence it is not talking about all Jews and Christians in general . Hope that clarifies the issue .

 

[Union]

"Those Christians and Jews who follow the judgment of ignorance?"

You really amaze me Union, with your wisdom and information! I have a strong desire to open another thread in this forum to put a question to all members, as to "Who are the Christians and Jews that follow the judgment of ignorance?"I really mean to! This is a serious accusation on the followers of Judaism and Christianity that some of them follow what you call here a judgment of ignorance!

And who my dear Union are the Jews and the Christians today that do not follow the judgment of ignorance today? ARE THEY SUCH PEOPLE THAT SEE WHAT YOUR KORAN HAS TO SAY ON THEIR BELIEF IN THEIR TORAH AND THE BIBLE? DO THEY HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS HAD DESCENDED FROM HEAVENS ON THE PROPHETS IN FORM OF BOOKS (LECTURES/COMMENTARIES) IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND ON JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH IN THE SAME FORM OF BOOKS AS YOUR LECTURES DESCENDED ON MUHAMMAD? DID THE PARABLES AND PREACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST DESCEND TO HIM AS LECTURES FROM GOD OR WAS HE PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF LOVE AND TRUTH FROM HIS SACRED HEART? ARE THEY SUCH CHRISTIANS THAT BELIEVE THAT JESUS HAD NOT DIED ON THE CROSS IN JERUSALEM AS YOUR LECTURES TO MUHAMMAD WOULD WANT THEM TO BELIEVE? DO THEY HAVE TO FORSAKE THE READING OF THE TORAH AND THE BIBLE AS YOUR LECTURES TO MUHAMMAD BY HIS GOD COMMANDS THEM TO FOLLOW TO PREVENT THEMSELVES FROM THE FIRES OF GEHENNA! THOSE LECTURES CLAIM TO SURPASS ALL SUCH SCRIPTURES THAT WERE BEING READ AND REVERED BY THESE JEWS AND THESE CHRISTIANS BEFORE THEIR ARRIVAL TO MUHAMMAD! YOU PEACEFUL READ AND QUOTE FROM YOUR LECTURES THAT YOU BELIEVE IN WHAT WAS REVEALED TO PROPHETS OF THE BIBLE AND YET YOU CONSIDER WHAT THE LECTURES TO MUHAMMAD WANT TO BE FOLLOWED BY THE THUMB AND HIS TRADITIONS AND NOT WHAT IS COMMANDED IN THE BIBLE AND THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES TO THE CHRISTIANS AND THE JEWS? WORSE THAN THAT YOU WANT THESE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS TO GIVE UP THEIR FAITH ON THEIR SCRIPTURES AND SEEK THE JUDGEMENT OF LECTURES TO MUHAMMAD FOR THEIR BETTERMENT IN THIS WORLD AND THEIR SALVATION IN THE DOOMSDAY? IS THAT THE ONLY OPTION IN UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR GOD AND HIS JUDGMENT AS THEY READ AND KNOW IN THEIR TORAH AND THE BIBLE? THAT WHICH YOU AND THE LECTURES CALL AS JUDGEMENT OF IGNORANCE!

Follow restraint dear Union and do not ascribe ignorance to the judgment and faith of the Jews and Christians in their scriptures! That only insults them and their adherence to there faith!:no:

Sorry , my eyes are good enough to read small letter case , hence please turn off your caps-lock next time

The judgment of ignorance are defined in the next sentence which is opposing the judgment of GOD . Thats all . Nothing so difficult that you are stressing yourself of .

Just giving you an example , Jews believe that Jesus is a ******* child while Christian believe that Jesus is son of GOD or a part god himself . Both are at their extreme point - and condemned to be the judgment of ignorance . You got me now .

 

[Pastek]

My question had originally been put forward to a Peaceful of this forum on the subject of friendship or enmity between the Peaceful and those of the books I. e., the Ahl Alkitaab in other words the Jews and the Christians to which my answer was that the Lectures very strongly forbade any friendship of that nature, and thus any Peaceful true to his faith in the Lectures, should refrain from befriending a Jew or a Christian. That Peaceful member of this forum had replied to me that the idea of a forbidden by faith, friendship between a Muslim with a Jew or a Christian was not the opinion of the majority of the Peaceful and restricted to only a few!

If you read the Qu'ran, try to understand also the context. Did you read it completely or just some verses ?

You have to read the surates carefully to understand it, and not isolate a specific verse.

First of all, i see that you put the verse in english and in arabic. But can you read arabic ?
If yes, you would know that the translation is not "friends" but "allies" :

"O THOSE THAT BELIEVE! MAKE NO FRIENDS OF THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR THE FRIENDSHIP OF SOME LEADS TO THE WAYS OF SOME! AND HE AMONGST YOU THAT BEFRIENDS THEM TODAY SHALL BE COUNTED VERILY AS ONE OF THEM AND GOD INDEED DOES NOT LEAD THE TRIBES THAT SPREAD DARKNESS

YA AIYYUHALLAZEENA AAMANOU! LAA TATTAKHAZAL YAHUDA WAN NASAARA AULIYA'A BAA'DAHUM AULIYAA 'I BAA'DIN! FAMAN YATAWALLAHUM MINKUM FA INNAHU MINHUM INNALLAH LAA YAHDIL QAUMAZZAALIMEEN!

If you make a research for the word "friend" you will find "صديق" (saddiq)

"Those Christians and Jews who follow the judgment of ignorance?"

I have a strong desire to open another thread in this forum to put a question to all members, as to "Who are the Christians and Jews that follow the judgment of ignorance?"I really mean to! This is a serious accusation on the followers of Judaism and Christianity that some of them follow what you call here a judgment of ignorance!

Some of them used to go to the prophet Muhammad and reject his judgment and don't even followed their own Book.
You need to read more than just one portion of a surate to get it.
And you have to understand that some verses were talking about people of that time.


5.66 And if only they upheld [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have consumed [provision] from above them and from beneath their feet.

4.51 Have you not seen those who were given a portion of the Scripture, who believe in superstition and false objects of worship* and say about the disbelievers, "These** are better guided than the believers as to the way"?

*Meaning those who believe in magic, fortune teller, superstition etc ...
**Meaning those who are polytheists are more guided than muslims



4.60 Have you not seen those who claim to have believed in what was revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you? They wish to refer legislation to Taghut, while they were commanded to reject it; and Satan wishes to lead them far astray.

Taghut : magic, superstition, fortune tellers etc ...


So those ones who didn't accept the judgement of Muhammad, or don't applicate the law of their own Book correctly and follow instead the Taghut, are those who follow the law of ignorance.

 

[Indian Iconoclast]

Brother Pastek! Peace!

You have asked me of my reading of the Lectures and the study of Arabic.

In a continuous period of three years stay at Iraq (prior to the first US invasion following the accession of Kuwait by late Saddam Hussain) I had worked as site auditor for an Indian Railroad Company that was awarded the contract to lay rail tracks and construct stations, track control cabins, rail yards and railway electrification from the city of Ain Ul Tamar (Date' eye) to Basra and from Basra to Assamaawa via Jalibah and Annasiriya. During this stay I wanted to learn Arabic both writ and speech. The local Baathist administration sources provided me with Bath literature in Arabic with English interpretation. I was not interested. Fortunately a Peaceful clergy (Mulla) from Tikrit also in this project had befriended me and taught me Alqaaideh Albaghdadi the basic book of Arabic letters and pronunciation. He then told me that the present day Arabic was inferior to the Arabic of the Lectures and the Traditions and that Higher Arabic was known as Allisaan Alfusahaa which I could only find in the Lectures. I started with Arabic-English dictionaries and other Arabic tutorial books to first copy in the Naskh calligraphy script (originated and mastered by Ibn Miqleh of the Abbasid Caliphate days) the text of the Lectures (Almuss'haff Al Uthmani) of God. I started with the Suratul Hamd alsoknown as Alfaatihatul Qu'raan and after copying it for a month with good calligraphy ventured straight into the next and the largest Surah the Al Baqreh (The Cow) in the Lectures. Six months later I had copied to the pleasure of my teacher all verses from the Suratul Hamd to the Suratul Israa' of the 15th section (Al Khaamis Ul Ashr) of the Al Quran Al Majeed. My tutor Mulla Ubaidullah Tikriti had strong instructions for me in both the Lectures and the Qaaideh, that is to touch them only after proper bath with water leaving not a follicle of my body's hair un-wet each time I happened to defecate/urinate or pass out duodenal gas! I gave the Lectures full immunity from all unclean objects and placed it and the Qaaideh on a high shelf. My tutor himself a calligrapher and a reciter (Qaari) then ventured on a very bold step! He saw the quality of my Arabic Naskh Script and decided to teach me, a non Peaceful, the Arabic pronunciation of the text of the Lectures along with my copy of its verses. I also started gathering English and Arabic commentaries on the Lectures for better understanding. I spent a good amount of my salary in Dinars to buy books instead of repatriating the money in Rupees to India. The English translations and commentaries included of Muhammad Marmaduke Pikthall, Abdul Ahad Leopold Weiss and Mariyam Jameeleh. The first Arabic Tafseer that came under my eyes was that of a learned Egyptian scholar of the Caliphate days Allaameh Jalaluddin Ibn Jalaluddin Assuyuti. His commentary the Tafseer Al Jalaalain is a monumental work and is continued to be studied even today at all Universities teaching Islamic Theology! After a three years I had memorized approximately 15 sections in continuation in both copy and recitation. It is copying the text repeatedly that really keeps the memorizing strong and flawless. Afterwards while repatriating to India I kept reading the books of Tradition and Islamic History in Arabic Urdu and Persian. From Seerat Un Nabi by Ibn Hishhaam to Muqaddameh Wal Taareekh of Ibn Khaldun and Rimleh of Ibn Batutteh and Al Kitaab Al Hind by Abu Raihan Muhammad Al Albairuni in Isalmic History and the Assihaah Assitteh (The Seven Books of True Traditions) in both Arabic and English translations. Needless to say the study continues.

My dear Pastek, the words in Arabic have both literal and figurative meanings and one word in English can have many equal words in Arabic translation. The Arabic Grammar (Sarf wa Nahw) is very similar to the Sanskrit Grammar (Vyakaran) of ancient India where you have singular dual and plural number syntax unlike that of English where we see only the singular and plural numbers. My experience in Arabic has shown me that some Arabic words just simply can not be translated completely in their full sense in English or for that matter in any other language! An example is the word 'RABB' which has no true equivalence in English! You have used the word "Lord" in your answer in translating that word. The word 'Lord 'only partially attributes to the Arabic 'Rabb'! The Hebrew word 'Adunaai' comes very near! Therefore for your benefit the word 'Friend' gets correctly translated to the word 'Wali' in Arabic in both literal and figurative syntax. The word 'Saddiq' in todays downscaled Arabic may only figuratively mean a friend but it owes its root to the Arabic word 'Sidq' which means 'Truth' in English and the word 'Saddiq' (Siddiq is the correct pronunciation!) means the truthful! The Lectures thus use the word 'YATAWAALAHUM' (befriends them) which runs from the word 'Wilaayeh' meaning friendship. For example: 'ALAA INNA AULIYAA ALLAHI! LAA KHAUFUN ALAIHIM WA LAAHUM YAHZANOON!''LO! THESE BE THE FRIENDS OF ALLAH! AND NO FEAR (OF THE PUNISHMENTS OF THE HEREAFTER) SHAL PREVAIL ON THEM AND NEITHER SHALL THEY BE AFRAID (OF THE AFTERLIFE)!

I am very sorry to see the comments made here by a Peaceful that the Jews and the Christians follow the judgment of ignorance! That is a very insulting and hurting statement and if the Peaceful feel that view to be correct then in the language of the Lectures ~ 'LAKUM DEENAKUM WA LI A'DEEN'!

 

[Pastek]

Salam Indian Iconoclast

Therefore for your benefit the word 'Friend' gets correctly translated to the word 'Wali' in Arabic in both literal and figurative syntax. The word 'Saddiq' in todays downscaled Arabic may only figuratively mean a friend but it owes its root to the Arabic word 'Sidq' which means 'Truth' in English and the word 'Saddiq' (Siddiq is the correct pronunciation!) means the truthful!

Yes Saddiq means also "truthful"
Many muslims have this name "Abdessadeq". (servant of the Truthful (God) )

But this word also means "friend" as a friends are supposed to be sincere and tell you the truth, that's why it has the two meanings.

Arabs always used the word "saddiq" to say friend until today.

Waly is more used to say "responsable", "tutor", "guardian".
You can find it translated like that most of time in the Quran, because it's the first meaning od that word.

You must understand that the verse was revealed in a particular moment, when the jews and the christians were both allies with the polytheists.

You know that at the beginning they were allies with the muslims right ?
When muslims came to Medina they had a peace treaty with the jews, christians and polytheists of that city.

I let you read this link with more details concerning the treaty : Constitution of Medina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's why i said that it's incorrect to translate the word "waly/awliya" as friend(s).
It's not ts first meaning, and if you understand well the context of this surate you'll see that it was not the appropriate translated word for this verse.

 

[Indian Iconoclast]

Salam Indian Iconoclast

Yes Saddiq means also "truthful"
Many muslims have this name "Abdessadeq". (servant of the Truthful (God) )

But this word also means "friend" as a friends are supposed to be sincere and tell you the truth, that's why it has the two meanings.

Arabs always used the word "saddiq" to say friend until today.

Waly is more used to say "responsable", "tutor", "guardian".

Peace be on you brother Pastek!

I am afraid that I have to express my sadness on your arguing on my translation of Arabic words in this thread even after reading my previous post addressed to you that though I am not a scholar in Arabic, I have spent over three years in learning it at Iraq and the language of the 'Lectures' being described as the language of erudite Al Lisaan Al Fussahaa.

You have again argued and written that the word 'Saddiq' also means a friend. I do not understand the reason for this because I have already written in my previous post to you, that it may figuratively mean so in todays downgraded Arabic (being spoken by Arabs in the Middle East and elsewhere) but the word 'Saddiq' owes it roots to the Arabic word 'Sidq' which means truth and therefore it literally translates to truthful. You have gone further to write that the word 'Wali' means more a guide or a guardian or a responsible person instead of a friend as I have translated and shown a line from the 'Lectures' where it appears in plural form.

I, my brother Pastek am sorry to let you know, that in my opinion, your grasp on Arabic and its higher form the Lisaan Al Fussahaa is very elementary and has scope for much development. Also my brother, I do not like the habit for arguing merely for sake of an argument. That is a habit we all should stay away from. I therefore shall end this conversation with you on this particular topic, with a translated quote from your much venerated 'LECTURES FROM GOD TO MUHAMMAD IBN ABDULLAH' which I quote with great appreciation!
~ 'AND WHEN CONFRONTED BY THE IGNORANT (ON MATTERS OF TRUTH) THEY (THE FAITHFUL) DO NOT ENGAGE IN ARGUMENTS, BUT SMILE POLITELY, AND SAY "PEACE!" AND MOVE ON!':yes:

 

[Pastek]

Peace be on you brother Pastek!
You have again argued and written that the word 'Saddiq' also means a friend. I do not understand the reason for this because I have already written in my previous post to you, that it may figuratively mean so in todays downgraded Arabic (being spoken by Arabs in the Middle East and elsewhere) but the word 'Saddiq' owes it roots to the Arabic word 'Sidq' which means truth and therefore it literally translates to truthful.

You are the one arguing about the word saddiq coming from the roots sidq.
Thank you very much, but i'm arab and i know it and i learned my language.

You have gone further to write that the word 'Wali' means more a guide or a guardian or a responsible person instead of a friend as I have translated and shown a line from the 'Lectures' where it appears in plural form.

I told you its the first sense of it.
You were talking about a specific verse, right ?

Did God said "friends" or "allies" ?
It's an important issue as you are posting everywhere that Allah told us not to be "friends" with jews and christians.

I think that you don't really care about the verses that i post explaing it, and i think you don't really want to know what God said or what was the context of the surate.

In the Quran, the "wali" is also the father, the uncle, the tutor. That's how they are named. Look at the verses about mariage or orphans as you say you can read arabic.

I therefore shall end this conversation with you on this particular topic, with a translated quote from your much venerated 'LECTURES FROM GOD TO MUHAMMAD IBN ABDULLAH' which I quote with great appreciation!
~ 'AND WHEN CONFRONTED BY THE IGNORANT (ON MATTERS OF TRUTH) THEY (THE FAITHFUL) DO NOT ENGAGE IN ARGUMENTS, BUT SMILE POLITELY, AND SAY "PEACE!" AND MOVE ON!':yes:

That's a good verse, and i agree to end up with it. I will not answer more in this topic.
If there's something that i hate, it's when someone only try to bring animosity and false accusations between communities when saying that he just wants to "understand".

Anyway, Salam.

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

I am of the interpretation that verses of the Qur'an contain both zahir (exoteric) and batin (esoteric) meanings. Unfortunately, most people don't seem too interested in divulging the batini meanings of the Qur'an. It also doesn't help that many are opposed to tawil (esoteric interpretation) because it is most commonly associated with Sufism and Shi'a Islam.

 

[Union]

I am of the interpretation that verses of the Qur'an contain both zahir (exoteric) and batin (esoteric) meanings. Unfortunately, most people don't seem too interested in divulging the batini meanings of the Qur'an. It also doesn't help that many are opposed to tawil (esoteric interpretation) because it is most commonly associated with Sufism and Shi'a Islam.

[003:007] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is a llegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Therefor it is always tricky to deal with the Mutasabiha parts of Qur'an . We should not generalized it in any and every tawil and should leave it with the experts of that specific field to let us know about it .

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

[003:007] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is a llegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Therefor it is always tricky to deal with the Mutasabiha parts of Qur'an . We should not generalized it in any and every tawil and should leave it with the experts of that specific field to let us know about it .

In not understanding the metaphorical significance of Islamic rituals, people reduce them to meaningless gestures. I adhere to the belief that it is the duty of every Muslim to read the Qur'an and interpret it for themselves, not just scholars.