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Is the lack of faith of Atheists due to theists' failure to support their claims?

leibowde84

Veteran Member
If our God is God the Gap, the revolution in Iran in 197 would have been named "the atheist revolution of Iran" Not "the Islamic Revolution of Iran"
This is nonsensical. Are you familiar with what the "God of the gaps" argument is and why it is flawed? I am assuming that you don't, as it has nothing to do with atheism. It is merely an example of a commonly used argument for God's existence that is a logical fallacy.

Basically, it is the argument that, since there is no alternative explanation for the creation of the universe, God must be the cause. This is obviously flawed reasoning, as it ignores the possibility that we have simply not discovered the cause of the universe YET.

So, I'm not sure how your comment makes any sense at all.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I wonder if it is more common that atheists are atheists because they simply stopped, or never started, believing in the first place, rather than because the theists didn't make a good enough argument. I can't speak for other people, but I didn't start being an atheist due to some rational process of weighing up competing pieces of evidence, I just realised I didn't believe that any god existed. Any reasons I might give for this are really just after the fact justifications that didn't really play any part in my decision, if you can even call it a decision rather than a feeling.
Same here.

I knew my faith wasn't rational as a Christian. I didn't excuse it or explain it with arguments, claims, and such. It wasn't what I though faith was. According to what I learned, the Bible says that faith comes from God and from hearing God's word. The Bible didn't say that faith came from rational arguments made by scientists, philosophers, and mathematicians. No, instead it suggested that endless debates and discussions were of no use and should be avoided. So I believed because it felt right.

The change happened when the feelings wasn't there anymore. I knew most of the arguments before this, but they didn't help me keep my faith at all. My view was that if God exists, then God will give me faith. If I don't have faith, and God won't give it to me, then he either doesn't care, he can't, or he doesn't exist.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member




There is a misunderstanding about the apostasy law in Islam...

In Islamic Teaching Seminaries for example, all arguments against the existence of God can be presented and debated...

Also, people in the Islamic country can have their belief and they are not questioned about it.. Anyone can debate the existence of God with the Islamic scholars..

The Quran itself stated many debates between the prophet and the atheists.

Also, take into consideration that capital punishment is not applied to apostate women...

The apostasy law is related to the fact that Islam is not merely a religion...it is a whole system of life ...
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Ok, but personal feelings about the death penalty aside, America does/did have states with capital punishment. So do you feel that without such legislation, murder would be commonplace, or do you think that perhaps murder is considered such a great offense that even if the law would deter one extra murderer, it would be worth having.
I don't think that capital punishment is an effective deterrent, but I do think that it's *intended* as a deterrent.

I ask this because you say"the fact that Iran and other Muslim countries make apostasy punishable by death implies that they think that if nothing was done, apostasy from Islam would be so common that it would be a serious problem warranting an extreme response"

Applying that logic here, it seems that the reason American states had the death penalty is because if nothing was done, murder would be so common, that it would be a serious problem. Do you think that's a reasonable assumption about the average American?
You bolded the wrong part. Pay closer attention to "they think": I'm not - and was never - talking about actual effects of the punushment. I was talking about motives and intents.

The fact that the Iranian government would make apostasy a capital offense suggests that Iran's leaders are very worried about apostasy, which speaks against Shia Islam's assertion that the Muslims in Iran are so secure in their faith that conversion is unheard of.

The fact that there are still plenty of (closeted) atheists in Iran despite the threat of being murdered by their government is irrelevant to the point I was making.
 
And I disagree with the idea that a focus on objective truth is a strictly Western Christian thing. Ask the average Buddhist if the Noble Eightfold Path would be worth following if the Four Noble Truths turned out to be false.

What I really meant, although I really didn't express it very well, was that religion is mostly about practice rather than belief.

Modern Christianity, especially Protestantism, is almost entirely about belief and very little to do with practice, most of the rules and rituals have been discarded.

I don't know much about Buddhism, but would it be the case that the practical aspect of Buddhism is its key rather than any specific beliefs? What is important is that you practice its teachings rather than simply making some statement of belief towards them. With many forms of Christianity, what is most important is that you believe, rather than carry out any practical aspects.

With religions, I believe that the practice came before the justifications/gods/mythology, so removing the practice and just keeping the belief in gods/mythology/etc. leaves you with a hollow shell.

Religion is about practical aspects that guide behaviour, rather than an abstract expression of belief.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
There is a misunderstanding about the apostasy law in Islam...

In Islamic Teaching Seminaries for example, all arguments against the existence of God can be presented and debated...

Also, people in the Islamic country can have their belief and they are not questioned about it.. Anyone can debate the existence of God with the Islamic scholars..

The Quran itself stated many debates between the prophet and the atheists.

Also, take into consideration that capital punishment is not applied to apostate women...

The apostasy law is related to the fact that Islam is not merely a religion...it is a whole system of life ...
Do you have to debate God's existence with scholars, or is anyone aloud to participate?
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
This is nonsensical. Are you familiar with what the "God of the gaps" argument is and why it is flawed? I am assuming that you don't, as it has nothing to do with atheism. It is merely an example of a commonly used argument for God's existence that is a logical fallacy.

Basically, it is the argument that, since there is no alternative explanation for the creation of the universe, God must be the cause. This is obviously flawed reasoning, as it ignores the possibility that we have simply not discovered the cause of the universe YET.

So, I'm not sure how your comment makes any sense at all.

The question is not about how the universe was created. It is about does it have a creator or not.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I don't think that capital punishment is an effective deterrent, but I do think that it's *intended* as a deterrent.


You bolded the wrong part. Pay closer attention to "they think": I'm not - and was never - talking about actual effects of the punushment. I was talking about motives and intents.

The fact that the Iranian government would make apostasy a capital offense suggests that Iran's leaders are very worried about apostasy, which speaks against Shia Islam's assertion that the Muslims in Iran are so secure in their faith that conversion is unheard of.

The fact that there are still plenty of (closeted) atheists in Iran despite the threat of being murdered by their government is irrelevant to the point I was making.
Yes, I understand that you are talking about motives, I am as well. And I am saying that perhaps the motive that US states have in legislating capital punishment may be the same motive that Iran and other Muslim governments have in legislating capital punishment in their countries: as a deterrent, not for something that is expected to otherwise be common, but to prevent something that is -in their eyes- a horrendous crime, to the greatest extent possible.
That is, the US does not anticipate that baring criminal legislation murder would become rampant. But that it would act as a deterrent for those few that would consider it.
We can also suggest that Muslims countries do not anticipate apostasy becoming widespread. But legislation may act as a deterrent for those few who would consider it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What I really meant, although I really didn't express it very well, was that religion is mostly about practice rather than belief.

Modern Christianity, especially Protestantism, is almost entirely about belief and very little to do with practice, most of the rules and rituals have been discarded.
But in Catholic and Orthodox Christianity, belief is central to the rules and rituals.

In every Catholic mass, the congregation "proclaims the mystery of faith" and "professes their faith": they're ritualized, yes, but they're statements of belief. In the ritual of the Eucharist, the priest gives - effectively - a running commentary of what the Church considers to be the factual basis for the different parts of the ritual.

Yes, there are practices and rituals - boatloads of them - but there's just as much belief and factual claims.

I don't know much about Buddhism, but would it be the case that the practical aspect of Buddhism is its key rather than any specific beliefs?
The person in this thread most familiar with Buddhism has said that the practices of Buddhism would be pointless without the factual claims being true. If you have other Buddhist perspectives to share, I'm all ears.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
There is a misunderstanding about the apostasy law in Islam...

In Islamic Teaching Seminaries for example, all arguments against the existence of God can be presented and debated...

Also, people in the Islamic country can have their belief and they are not questioned about it.. Anyone can debate the existence of God with the Islamic scholars..

The Quran itself stated many debates between the prophet and the atheists.

Also, take into consideration that capital punishment is not applied to apostate women...

The apostasy law is related to the fact that Islam is not merely a religion...it is a whole system of life ...
Can you explain how it being a whole system of life requires that apostates be killed?
And what relevance does its lack of application to women have?
Why isn't it applied to women?
 
But in Catholic and Orthodox Christianity, belief is central to the rules and rituals.

In every Catholic mass, the congregation "proclaims the mystery of faith" and "professes their faith": they're ritualized, yes, but they're statements of belief. In the ritual of the Eucharist, the priest gives - effectively - a running commentary of what the Church considers to be the factual basis for the different parts of the ritual.

Yes, there are practices and rituals - boatloads of them - but there's just as much belief and factual claims.

Yes, but the practices and rituals are what are beneficial.

People can either believe in god or not believe in god, yet as long as they follow the practices and rituals they benefit. The believer does not gain from a supernatural reward post-death, they gain as the practices bring tangible benefits in the real world.

If they only believe in god without following the practices, then they do not. The non-believer who practices gains more than the believer who does not.

If the benefit comes from the practical aspects, not the belief aspects, then belief is ultimately irrelevant. Religions are products of human experience, through experience we learn things that work and things that do not. If religion 'didn't work', it wouldn't still exist all over the world. We don't have to be able to create a 'rational' justification for everything that comes along with it, just accept that the balance of probabilities says if it's survived this long, there must be some tangible benefits that come along with it.


The person in this thread most familiar with Buddhism has said that the practices of Buddhism would be pointless without the factual claims being true. If you have other Buddhist perspectives to share, I'm all ears.

That would suggest that the practices themselves have no tangible benefits outside the objective truth of the totality of the message.

I'm not saying that you can ignore the teachings as they relate to the practice, just that the metaphysical justifications behind such teaching do not need to be true.

If you rejected any idea of rebirth and thought that there was only one life, you can still benefit from practicing Buddhist rituals. Much religious teaching is about finding an inner peace/freedom, and many give you practical steps towards doing so.

What matters is that you accept that following the rituals and practices brings you benefit, not that you come to the conclusion that they express singular objective truth. The benefit comes from belief in the ritual, rather than belief in any metaphysical justification for the ritual. You don't have to believe that the Buddha was born miraculously or reached a state of pure enlightenment or believe in reincarnation, just that the practices bring you benefits if you follow them properly.

That is why many religions have similar rituals, but different justifications behind them. Fasting forms part of countless belief systems, yet they all use different justifications for it. If 10 people fast for 24 hours, but all based on different religious teachings, they all benefit equally from the practice regardless of the specific reasons justifying the action.

The justification doesn't matter, only the proper practice.
 

idea

Question Everything
I've often thought about this question, but I have yet to see it on this forum. The question at hand is whether theists should blame themselves for the lack of belief of atheists due to their failure to provide valid, reasoned, and supported arguments for their belief.

Isn't withholding adherence to a belief system until sufficient evidence/reasoning has been provided merely displaying the prudence of atheism? Do you think the flawed reasoning (cosmological argument, "something from nothing", arguments from ignorance, etc.) of the theist is to blame for atheists' refusing to "buy into" deities of any kind.

Am I my brother's keeper? LOL.... kidding aside, there is no such thing as borrowed light. No one can impart their religious testimony to you, just like no one can impart their love of ________ (fill in the blank)____ anything.

Should healthy people who exercise and eat right blame themselves for failing to make everyone else healthy too?
Should musicians/artists/writers/scientists who have practiced and worked their entire lives to be competent at their trade blame themselves for failing to make other bums competent too?
Should parents who have sacrificed and worked to raise up healthy children blame themselves for failing to provide family relationships to those die alone?

Everyone is free to pursue the life of their choice. Everyone can only blame themselves for the consequences of their choices.

  • I will judge every one according to his ways:Ezek. 18:30;
  • They shall give account of every idle word:Matt. 12:36;
  • Give an account of thy stewardship:Luke 16:2;
  • Every one of us shall give an account of himself to God:Rom. 14:12;

We are accountable only for ourselves.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yes, but the practices and rituals are what are beneficial.

People can either believe in god or not believe in god, yet as long as they follow the practices and rituals they benefit. The believer does not gain from a supernatural reward post-death, they gain as the practices bring tangible benefits in the real world.

If they only believe in god without following the practices, then they do not. The non-believer who practices gains more than the believer who does not.
The Catholic Church teaches that anyone who receives communion while in a state of mortal sin (and I can't see how an atheist in a Catholic Church wouldn't be in a state of mortal sin in the eyes of the Church) or while not believing that the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Christ offends God and "heaps judgement upon himself."
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Am I my brother's keeper? LOL.... kidding aside, there is no such thing as borrowed light. No one can impart their religious testimony to you, just like no one can impart their love of ________ (fill in the blank)____ anything.

Should healthy people who exercise and eat right blame themselves for failing to make everyone else healthy too?
Should musicians/artists/writers/scientists who have practiced and worked their entire lives to be competent at their trade blame themselves for failing to make other bums competent too?
Should parents who have sacrificed and worked to raise up healthy children blame themselves for failing to provide family relationships to those die alone?

Everyone is free to pursue the life of their choice. Everyone can only blame themselves for the consequences of their choices.

  • I will judge every one according to his ways:Ezek. 18:30;
  • They shall give account of every idle word:Matt. 12:36;
  • Give an account of thy stewardship:Luke 16:2;
  • Every one of us shall give an account of himself to God:Rom. 14:12;

We are accountable only for ourselves.
This cannot be true. Don't you base your beliefs on St. Paul, Jesus, the Apostles, St. James, St. Peter, the authors of the Gospels, past Popes, etc., at least partly? Are they not "theists"? Isn't their argument available to atheists and theists alike, yet is not seen as convincing to atheists?

How can it be said that theists cannot or try not to convince others of their beliefs. That was the entire aim of the early Christians, wasn't it?

And, what does "spreading the good news" mean if we aren't supposed to convince?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Yes, but the practices and rituals are what are beneficial.

People can either believe in god or not believe in god, yet as long as they follow the practices and rituals they benefit. The believer does not gain from a supernatural reward post-death, they gain as the practices bring tangible benefits in the real world.
I never got any benefit from sitting through religious rituals I was raised in unless boredom and discomfort is a benefit. Even the pastors seemed rather bored so I guess I was not the only one.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There is a misunderstanding about the apostasy law in Islam...

In Islamic Teaching Seminaries for example, all arguments against the existence of God can be presented and debated...

Also, people in the Islamic country can have their belief and they are not questioned about it.. Anyone can debate the existence of God with the Islamic scholars..

The Quran itself stated many debates between the prophet and the atheists.

Also, take into consideration that capital punishment is not applied to apostate women...

The apostasy law is related to the fact that Islam is not merely a religion...it is a whole system of life ...

And the misunderstanding would be...?
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
The same issue comes up. We have no reason to think that the universe had a creator beyond the lack of an alternative explanation.

It is not the same.
a binary variable can't assume a third value.

If it is not 0 then it must be ONE, and only.

Then, i am not presenting here all the arrangements for God existence...And even if i am to do so..i am not expecting all atheists to be unbiased...

There are atheists by choice.

I presented an argument that explained the main point of why Muslims maintained their belief, while the west disbelieved in God and rejected God - i don't mean all.

That's it.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Do you think the flawed reasoning

arguments from ignorance

"something from nothing

None of the above.


Its my research into every bit of evidence provided by theist that show a clear patter of human only definition and of humans only evolving the concepts to mirror ancient cultural needs.


In other words, all evidence points directly at man creating and defining deities through mythology.
 
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