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Is the POPE really HOLY?

Do you think the pope is Holy?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 18 75.0%

  • Total voters
    24
No. I'm saying that Christ really established a Church, a real visible Church that would maintain apostolic continuity. This Church is the Catholic Church and the pope is truly the successor of Saint Peter. It is not that outside the Church is utterly devoid of truth, but it is only through the Church that anyone can merit salvation.

The first successor to Peter was Clement. Clement states that Peter actually was only the Bishop of Rome and that Peter in fact reported to the "Bishop of all Bishops" who was Jesus' brother James. James was the leader over the Jerusalem Assembly, which was the seat and headquarters of the early church. The primacy of Peter and Apostolic Succession is a tradition that developed over time and is not an historical reality that is documented from anyone from the time of Peter. Clement was from the time of Peter and was the next Bishop of Rome after Peter was executed. He knew Peter and was the second Pope. He says the head of the church was James. James was not a Christian, and the term was actually not known at the time. James was a Jew who headed up a Jewish messianic sect, steeped in Jewish tradition and devoted to one of the many self proclaimed messiahs of the time, all of whom healed the sick and performed miracles, and most of whom were crucified by the Romans. The sect of Jesus the Nazarene most likely persisted because of the fantastical writings of Paul, who never met Jesus and of whom, Peter and James were very suspicious. Everything I have posted can be researched and verified, or by enrolling in a religious studies program at an accredited university (including Catholic universities). One of the main problems in religious studies programs and seminaries is loss of faith. It usually happens sometime the sophomore or junior year, once students have had ample exposure to the actual texts and the sources of texts. This can be researched and verified as well.

As a disclaimer, I will volunteer that I think Jesus was simply a man, but I have no problem with anyone believing he was the Son of God or whatever, but historically, Jesus did not found the Roman Catholic Church. That was codified some 300 years later by people with agendas other than religious. As another disclaimer, I like Pope Francis.

All the best,
Gary
 

David M

Well-Known Member
Oh yeah,there is no question he is held sacred by many.This is obvious.Over 1 Billion.The question though is whether or not he is Holy?
I understand they think he is,but is he really?

Would you like to provide evidence on whether all 1 billion Catholics actually hold that the Pope is more than just a man chosen by men to head the Catholic Church?

As to wether he is holy that would depend on the definition chosen.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Whether the pope (or anyone else) is holy would depend mostly upon whether there was a god. Good luck answering that one conclusively.
 

First Baseman

Retired athlete
Whether the pope (or anyone else) is holy would depend mostly upon whether there was a god. Good luck answering that one conclusively.

Well of course. Just like unbelief in a god requires faith, so belief in God requires faith also since none have seen His face and lived to tell about it.
 

s13ep

42
I don't think that is the Pope, I think that's a false-Pope!
The Pope should be the wisest man, who will lead all the good people to salvation, which I don't believe is in him.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Well of course. Just like unbelief in a god requires faith, so belief in God requires faith also since none have seen His face and lived to tell about it.

Don't know what unbelief means. Atheism is the lack of belief in the proposition that a god of some kind exists.
How does not believing in something require faith in the scriptural sense? Do you believe that a teapot orbits the sun? Of course not. How much faith did that take?
 

First Baseman

Retired athlete
Don't know what unbelief means. Atheism is the lack of belief in the proposition that a god of some kind exists.
How does not believing in something require faith in the scriptural sense? Do you believe that a teapot orbits the sun? Of course not. How much faith did that take?

If you are an atheist then by definition you believe that no god exists. Since you cannot possibly prove that no god exists you choose to believe this purely on your faith in your atheism. Hence, faith is required to be a strict atheist.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
If you are an atheist then by definition you believe that no god exists. Since you cannot possibly prove that no god exists you choose to believe this purely on your faith in your atheism. Hence, faith is required to be a strict atheist.

Yes. I have a lot of faith that there are not invisible monsters messing around with the carrots in my garden, too.

I pray every night to ... Well... the object of my faith, the non existing monsters, to not destroy my garden.

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Jesus was obviously excluded. He is the Son of God, and He and God are One. Therefore I was referring to everyone except Him. The rest of us are not divine in nature like Jesus is.

It is not true that Jesus and God are one. They are two thirds. Which is less than one.

Ciaio

- viole
 

First Baseman

Retired athlete
Yes. I have a lot of faith that there are not invisible monsters messing around with the carrots in my garden, too.

I pray every night to ... Well... the object of my faith, the non existing monsters, to not destroy my garden.

Ciao

- viole

Your sarcasm becomes you. Enjoy.
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
Yes. I have a lot of faith that there are not invisible monsters messing around with the carrots in my garden, too.

I pray every night to ... Well... the object of my faith, the non existing monsters, to not destroy my garden.

Ciao

- viole

Maybe you're just growing lousy vegetables and the invisible monsters aren't interested. :)
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
If you are an atheist then by definition you believe that no god exists. Since you cannot possibly prove that no god exists you choose to believe this purely on your faith in your atheism. Hence, faith is required to be a strict atheist.

Atheism is not by definition a statement that no god can possibly exist. It is a position that the evidence for a god is insufficient to support such an outlandish claim. I never stated to anyone that I think it is an impossibility. I simply think it is highly improbable given the lack of sound evidence.

I do not have to prove your god does not exist anymore than you have to prove that all the other gods you do not believe in do not exist. That is an absurd assertion.

If he exists because I cannot prove he does not, then so do all the other gods by the same reasoning. Not to mention fairies.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Your sarcasm becomes you. Enjoy.

It is not sarcasm at all.

Since God and carrot loving invisible monsters have the same evidence, I don't see why my faith in the absence in God should be stronger, or more worthy of attention, than my faith in the absence of invisible monsters.

Do you also have faith that there are no invisible mosters liking carrots?

Make this test: go to a party and declare that disbelief in the existence of invisible monsters requires faith and see what happens.

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Maybe you're just growing lousy vegetables and the invisible monsters aren't interested. :)

Nope. My vegetables are fine.

But I have strong faith those mosters do not exist. So, I guess their non existence works in mysterious ways, since my garden is indeed all messed up sometimes, despite my prayers to those obviously not existing monsters.

I think they are testing my faith by making it look like they exist. Who knows?

Ciao

- viole
 
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