Is the Qur'an Inspired ?

[Neuropteron]

I asked myself this question as I was reading a featured comment on RF.
Using my favorite search engine I proceeded to find a site that could answer this question one way or another.
Shaykh-muslim-bhanji at Islam.org seemed to fit the bill as it promised to answer the following issues.

understanding the Qur'an
A complete code of life
the study of the Qur'an
it can shape the Destiny of the Human Race
Qur'an is understandable
Qur'an is for all...
Qur'an is a miracle.
Attraction of the Qu'ran
Methods used for training humans..

I read each of these pages with the goal of finding,
first: a comparisons and similarities with the Gospel accounts,
Second: a general theme and
Third: specific spiritual guidance.

I looked for similarities between the Gospel and Qur'an in following area:

The importance of the Kingdom.
The meaning of the ransom sacrifice.
Specific requirements in obeying God.
Jesus identity as the son of God and reasons he could be viewed as the last prophet.
The identifying mark of false prophets.

Similarities found: None
*Shaykh-muslim-bhanji mentions not one of these fundamental messages of the Gospel as being part of the Qu'ran.
Although the bulk of the narratives of the Qur'an have their biblical parallel, some claim that a comparative study of the Koranic and biblical narratives reveals no verbal dependence or direct quotations.

I looked for a General theme of the Qur'an:
Although specifically promised that a general theme would be explained, I could not find one, apart from general rhetoric's and circular reasoning.
eg.
It is a light whose radiance shall not be extinguished;
A lamp whose flame shall not die;
An ocean whose depth shall not be fathomed;
brings them out of utter darkness into light by his will and guides them to the right path.” (5:15-16).

Shaykh-muslim-bhanji list around 30+ of these sayings.
I concede that repeating them day after day will strengthens ones allegiance to Islam, but I am to conclude that the Qur'an promotes repetition to build strong faith ?
I subsequently found out that Qur'an means "recitation". Thus it seems that mindless repetition is the theme of the Qur'an.
The verses of surah 1:1-7 devout Muslims have to repeat these verses at least 5 times a day.

The Gospel on the other hand appeal to a person power of deduction,logic and reason.(Ro 12:2) Repetition(as the nation do) was clearly to be avoided as it hinders clear thinking ability (Mat 6:7).


*Spiritual guidance:
According to Shaykh-muslim-bhanji spiritual guidance boils down to doing good and staying away from what is bad. Follow the light turn away from darkness etc...All commendable and true, but if not followed by applicable boundaries it's ultimately just poetry.
Is it then that the conduct of a worshipers of Allah is guided by mostly vague and unspecific rhetorics. No that is not the case, because the Shaykh, Califahs and Imam have used this mosaic of poetic wisdom and taken it upon themselves to craft a set of applicable and enforceable Islamic laws and boundaries(Sharia Law).
eg. temporary marriage (mut'ah), law on alcohol, polygamy, treatment of "unbelievers", subjection of women. This of course depends on the Islamic faction followed.

The bible on the other hand advocate exclusively accepting God's word as it's authority instead of following the dictates of men. The fact that Christendom has sadly deviated from this requirement since Emperor Constantine is another subject.

Other considerations are this:

why a new set of spiritual thoughts?
Why would God inspire a book exclusively for the Arabic Nations, and discourage translations ?
Why a "new God" presumably called "Allah", when in reality it's not his name, but means God in Arabic ?
How can a believer follow the creed (shahadah) "no God but Allah...", since praying "no God but God" makes no sense.
How does constant repetition of this creed make it more understandable ? (5 daily prayer towards Mecca (salat)).
What are the scriptural credentials for a "new prophet" called Muhammad ?
Is claiming to have a confrontation with an Angel or is having an ideitic memory enough credential to start a religion ?
Can Muhammad claim the support of hundreds of prophecies dating back hundreds of years prophesying his arrival as was the case with Christ ?
Is his authority higher than the one given to the son of God?

Why should we believe the Qur'an is inspired?

Note:
I do not pretend to know or understand Islam. The above are simply questions I asked myself when I considered the claim that the Qur'an is a book of truth. I asked similar questions when I researched the claims of the bible.

Should you wish to discuss one of these issues with me, I would be honored, but please restrict them to one or two subject.
Thanks.

 

[exchemist]

I asked myself this question as I was reading a featured comment on RF.
Using my favorite search engine I proceeded to find a site that could answer this question one way or another.
Shaykh-muslim-bhanji at Islam.org seemed to fit the bill as it promised to answer the following issues.

understanding the Qur'an
A complete code of life
the study of the Qur'an
it can shape the Destiny of the Human Race
Qur'an is understandable
Qur'an is for all...
Qur'an is a miracle.
Attraction of the Qu'ran
Methods used for training humans..

I read each of these pages with the goal of finding,
first: a comparisons and similarities with the Gospel accounts,
Second: a general theme and
Third: specific spiritual guidance.

I looked for similarities between the Gospel and Qur'an in following area:

The importance of the Kingdom.
The meaning of the ransom sacrifice.
Specific requirements in obeying God.
Jesus identity as the son of God and reasons he could be viewed as the last prophet.
The identifying mark of false prophets.

Similarities found: None
*Shaykh-muslim-bhanji mentions not one of these fundamental messages of the Gospel as being part of the Qu'ran.
Although the bulk of the narratives of the Qur'an have their biblical parallel, some claim that a comparative study of the Koranic and biblical narratives reveals no verbal dependence or direct quotations.

I looked for a General theme of the Qur'an:
Although specifically promised that a general theme would be explained, I could not find one, apart from general rhetoric's and circular reasoning.
eg.
It is a light whose radiance shall not be extinguished;
A lamp whose flame shall not die;
An ocean whose depth shall not be fathomed;
brings them out of utter darkness into light by his will and guides them to the right path.” (5:15-16).

Shaykh-muslim-bhanji list around 30+ of these sayings.
I concede that repeating them day after day will strengthens ones allegiance to Islam, but I am to conclude that the Qur'an promotes repetition to build strong faith ?
I subsequently found out that Qur'an means "recitation". Thus it seems that mindless repetition is the theme of the Qur'an.
The verses of surah 1:1-7 devout Muslims have to repeat these verses at least 5 times a day.

The Gospel on the other hand appeal to a person power of deduction,logic and reason.(Ro 12:2) Repetition(as the nation do) was clearly to be avoided as it hinders clear thinking ability (Mat 6:7).


*Spiritual guidance:
According to Shaykh-muslim-bhanji spiritual guidance boils down to doing good and staying away from what is bad. Follow the light turn away from darkness etc...All commendable and true, but if not followed by applicable boundaries it's ultimately just poetry.
Is it then that the conduct of a worshipers of Allah is guided by mostly vague and unspecific rhetorics. No that is not the case, because the Shaykh, Califahs and Imam have used this mosaic of poetic wisdom and taken it upon themselves to craft a set of applicable and enforceable Islamic laws and boundaries(Sharia Law).
eg. temporary marriage (mut'ah), law on alcohol, polygamy, treatment of "unbelievers", subjection of women. This of course depends on the Islamic faction followed.

The bible on the other hand advocate exclusively accepting God's word as it's authority instead of following the dictates of men. The fact that Christendom has sadly deviated from this requirement since Emperor Constantine is another subject.

Other considerations are this:

why a new set of spiritual thoughts?
Why would God inspire a book exclusively for the Arabic Nations, and discourage translations ?
Why a "new God" presumably called "Allah", when in reality it's not his name, but means God in Arabic ?
How can a believer follow the creed (shahadah) "no God but Allah...", since praying "no God but God" makes no sense.
How does constant repetition of this creed make it more understandable ? (5 daily prayer towards Mecca (salat)).
What are the scriptural credentials for a "new prophet" called Muhammad ?
Is claiming to have a confrontation with an Angel or is having an ideitic memory enough credential to start a religion ?
Can Muhammad claim the support of hundreds of prophecies dating back hundreds of years prophesying his arrival as was the case with Christ ?
Is his authority higher than the one given to the son of God?

Why should we believe the Qur'an is inspired?

Note:
I do not pretend to know or understand Islam. The above are simply questions I asked myself when I considered the claim that the Qur'an is a book of truth. I asked similar questions when I researched the claims of the bible.

Should you wish to discuss one of these issues with me, I would be honored, but please restrict them to one or two subject.
Thanks.

Why should we believe the bible is inspired?

 

[whosetosay...]

I asked myself this question as I was reading a featured comment
Is his authority higher than the one given to the son of God?

Why should we believe the Qur'an is inspired?

Note:
I do not pretend to know or understand Islam. The above are simply questions I asked myself when I considered the claim that the Qur'an is a book of truth. I asked similar questions when I researched the claims of the bible.

Should you wish to discuss one of these issues with me, I would be honored, but please restrict them to one or two subject.
Thanks.

How can you compare the two?
The bible inspired by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, The Qur'an does not uphold the teachings of YHWH in the bible and Ishmael would never have gone against the will of God in person. Ishmael was a Jew himself under the covenant of Abraham. I think it is an interesting discussion but it cannot be one which receives any support from YHWH and the bible.

We know the OT and the NT teaches that the words of the Prophets and Christ all came from the teachings of Gods Holy Spirit. The Qur'an cannot lay claim to such works as the Prophets including Moses and Jesus. Till we can get past these truths according to the Word of God in the bible there is no reason to believe the Qur'an inspired by YHWH and his prophets. Willing to learn if you have anything further.

 

[exchemist]

How can you compare the two?
The bible inspired by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, The Qur'an does not uphold the teachings of YHWH in the bible and Ishmael would never have gone against the will of God in person. Ishmael was a Jew himself under the covenant of Abraham. I think it is an interesting discussion but it cannot be one which receives any support from YHWH and the bible.

We know the OT and the NT teaches that the words of the Prophets and Christ all came from the teachings of Gods Holy Spirit. The Qur'an cannot lay claim to such works as the Prophets including Moses and Jesus. Till we can get past these truths according to the Word of God in the bible there is no reason to believe the Qur'an inspired by YHWH and his prophets. Willing to learn if you have anything further.

But that all depends on believing what the bible says about it. If you believe what the Koran has to say, you will come to a different conclusion.

Why should anyone think the bible is more right than the Koran?

 

[Rival]

why a new set of spiritual thoughts?
Why would God inspire a book exclusively for the Arabic Nations, and discourage translations ?
Why a "new God" presumably called "Allah", when in reality it's not his name, but means God in Arabic ?
How can a believer follow the creed (shahadah) "no God but Allah...", since praying "no God but God" makes no sense.
How does constant repetition of this creed make it more understandable ? (5 daily prayer towards Mecca (salat)).
What are the scriptural credentials for a "new prophet" called Muhammad ?
Is claiming to have a confrontation with an Angel or is having an ideitic memory enough credential to start a religion ?
Can Muhammad claim the support of hundreds of prophecies dating back hundreds of years prophesying his arrival as was the case with Christ ?
Is his authority higher than the one given to the son of God?

We could apply this to your religion from the Jewish POV.

why a new set of spiritual thoughts?
The 'New Testament' is considered this from the Jewish POV.

Why would God inspire a book exclusively for the Arabic Nations, and discourage translations ?
There is a minor fast day in Judaism for the day the Torah was translated into Greek. English translations aren't great, either.

Why a "new God" presumably called "Allah", when in reality it's not his name, but means God in Arabic ?
'Allah' means God the same way 'God' means 'God' in English. It's the same. There's no difference. How about Christians praying to the man they believe is the Mashiach? Why a new god?

How can a believer follow the creed (shahadah) "no God but Allah...", since praying "no God but God" makes no sense.
It's a straight forward creed: There is no God but [the one] God.
How about the Christians' Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed? They make no sense according to Jewish belief.

How does constant repetition of this creed make it more understandable ? (5 daily prayer towards Mecca (salat)).
It's about the prayer. There's repetition in every religious service you will go to. It's about knowing what you believe and drumming it into yourself. I've listed two of Christianity's repeated creeds above.

What are the scriptural credentials for a "new prophet" called Muhammad ?
What are the scriptural credentials for a 'messiah' that is a human sacrifice?

Is claiming to have a confrontation with an Angel or is having an ideitic memory enough credential to start a religion ?
Is having a visitation from an angel on one's way to Damascus enough credential to be considered an apostle, especially given the two differing accounts of it?

Can Muhammad claim the support of hundreds of prophecies dating back hundreds of years prophesying his arrival as was the case with Christ ?
There aren't hundreds of messianic prophecies and Jesus fulfilled none. So yes, what are his credentials?

Is his authority higher than the one given to the son of God?
In Judaism, there is no such 'Son of God' concept as one finds in Christianity, so we go back to your first question.

First cast the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

While I'm not familiar with the Quran I know the bible isn't inspired. Still waiting for Egypt to be utterly destroyed with no living things to cross it's lands for 40 years.
Ezekiel 29:10-12

 

[PureX]

I would expect nearly all writing to be 'inspired'. The question, of course, is 'inspired' by what? If in this case it's by man's desire to understand "God", then I would say that, yes, it is inspired by that. Just as the Bible and other 'sacred texts' were. As well as a great many songs, and plays, and statues and paintings and rituals. Seeking a better understanding of 'God' has inspired a great many human activities. 'God' being the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is.

 

[janesix]

I asked myself this question as I was reading a featured comment on RF.
Using my favorite search engine I proceeded to find a site that could answer this question one way or another.
Shaykh-muslim-bhanji at Islam.org seemed to fit the bill as it promised to answer the following issues.

understanding the Qur'an
A complete code of life
the study of the Qur'an
it can shape the Destiny of the Human Race
Qur'an is understandable
Qur'an is for all...
Qur'an is a miracle.
Attraction of the Qu'ran
Methods used for training humans..

I read each of these pages with the goal of finding,
first: a comparisons and similarities with the Gospel accounts,
Second: a general theme and
Third: specific spiritual guidance.

I looked for similarities between the Gospel and Qur'an in following area:

The importance of the Kingdom.
The meaning of the ransom sacrifice.
Specific requirements in obeying God.
Jesus identity as the son of God and reasons he could be viewed as the last prophet.
The identifying mark of false prophets.

Similarities found: None
*Shaykh-muslim-bhanji mentions not one of these fundamental messages of the Gospel as being part of the Qu'ran.
Although the bulk of the narratives of the Qur'an have their biblical parallel, some claim that a comparative study of the Koranic and biblical narratives reveals no verbal dependence or direct quotations.

I looked for a General theme of the Qur'an:
Although specifically promised that a general theme would be explained, I could not find one, apart from general rhetoric's and circular reasoning.
eg.
It is a light whose radiance shall not be extinguished;
A lamp whose flame shall not die;
An ocean whose depth shall not be fathomed;
brings them out of utter darkness into light by his will and guides them to the right path.” (5:15-16).

Shaykh-muslim-bhanji list around 30+ of these sayings.
I concede that repeating them day after day will strengthens ones allegiance to Islam, but I am to conclude that the Qur'an promotes repetition to build strong faith ?
I subsequently found out that Qur'an means "recitation". Thus it seems that mindless repetition is the theme of the Qur'an.
The verses of surah 1:1-7 devout Muslims have to repeat these verses at least 5 times a day.

The Gospel on the other hand appeal to a person power of deduction,logic and reason.(Ro 12:2) Repetition(as the nation do) was clearly to be avoided as it hinders clear thinking ability (Mat 6:7).


*Spiritual guidance:
According to Shaykh-muslim-bhanji spiritual guidance boils down to doing good and staying away from what is bad. Follow the light turn away from darkness etc...All commendable and true, but if not followed by applicable boundaries it's ultimately just poetry.
Is it then that the conduct of a worshipers of Allah is guided by mostly vague and unspecific rhetorics. No that is not the case, because the Shaykh, Califahs and Imam have used this mosaic of poetic wisdom and taken it upon themselves to craft a set of applicable and enforceable Islamic laws and boundaries(Sharia Law).
eg. temporary marriage (mut'ah), law on alcohol, polygamy, treatment of "unbelievers", subjection of women. This of course depends on the Islamic faction followed.

The bible on the other hand advocate exclusively accepting God's word as it's authority instead of following the dictates of men. The fact that Christendom has sadly deviated from this requirement since Emperor Constantine is another subject.

Other considerations are this:

why a new set of spiritual thoughts?
Why would God inspire a book exclusively for the Arabic Nations, and discourage translations ?
Why a "new God" presumably called "Allah", when in reality it's not his name, but means God in Arabic ?
How can a believer follow the creed (shahadah) "no God but Allah...", since praying "no God but God" makes no sense.
How does constant repetition of this creed make it more understandable ? (5 daily prayer towards Mecca (salat)).
What are the scriptural credentials for a "new prophet" called Muhammad ?
Is claiming to have a confrontation with an Angel or is having an ideitic memory enough credential to start a religion ?
Can Muhammad claim the support of hundreds of prophecies dating back hundreds of years prophesying his arrival as was the case with Christ ?
Is his authority higher than the one given to the son of God?

Why should we believe the Qur'an is inspired?

Note:
I do not pretend to know or understand Islam. The above are simply questions I asked myself when I considered the claim that the Qur'an is a book of truth. I asked similar questions when I researched the claims of the bible.

Should you wish to discuss one of these issues with me, I would be honored, but please restrict them to one or two subject.
Thanks.

I think "inspired" just mean someone has visions or dreams, or some kind of religious or spiritual experience. I have these sometime, however, I have interpretations of what happened,and can be "wrong"based on preconcieved notions etc. It's all interpretation.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

ok

you said to limit a discussion with you to one or two subjects

i have one.

you said you looked for a general theme of the Quran

what do you think is the general theme of the Bible?

 

[danieldemol]

Hi @Neuropteron
Since you touched on the Quran as a miracle you might wish to view this illuminating clip debunking some of the commonly acclaimed scientific miracles of the Quran, particularly since it goes one step further than merely debunking the miracles and demonstrates how the underlying thinking that accepts these miracles is wrong conclusively in my opinion;

 

[George-ananda]

Is the Qur'an Inspired ?

I'll go with 'Yes'. Mohammed was an illiterate man that revealed the a book of incredible sophistication and depth. The theory that he was just a clever deceived man becomes hard to swallow when the book and the man's life story are seriously considered

 

[Trailblazer]

We know the OT and the NT teaches that the words of the Prophets and Christ all came from the teachings of Gods Holy Spirit.

How do you know that? You don't know it, you believe it. Likewise, Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the inspired Word of God through the Angel Gabriel.

The Qur'an cannot lay claim to such works as the Prophets including Moses and Jesus.

Why would it lay claim to that? The Qur'an is a new revelation from God through the prophet Muhammad.
Do you really think that God could never speak again after the Bible was written?

 

[nPeace]

I asked myself this question as I was reading a featured comment on RF.
Using my favorite search engine I proceeded to find a site that could answer this question one way or another.
Shaykh-muslim-bhanji at Islam.org seemed to fit the bill as it promised to answer the following issues.

understanding the Qur'an
A complete code of life
the study of the Qur'an
it can shape the Destiny of the Human Race
Qur'an is understandable
Qur'an is for all...
Qur'an is a miracle.
Attraction of the Qu'ran
Methods used for training humans..

I read each of these pages with the goal of finding,
first: a comparisons and similarities with the Gospel accounts,
Second: a general theme and
Third: specific spiritual guidance.

I looked for similarities between the Gospel and Qur'an in following area:

The importance of the Kingdom.
The meaning of the ransom sacrifice.
Specific requirements in obeying God.
Jesus identity as the son of God and reasons he could be viewed as the last prophet.
The identifying mark of false prophets.

Similarities found: None
*Shaykh-muslim-bhanji mentions not one of these fundamental messages of the Gospel as being part of the Qu'ran.
Although the bulk of the narratives of the Qur'an have their biblical parallel, some claim that a comparative study of the Koranic and biblical narratives reveals no verbal dependence or direct quotations.

I looked for a General theme of the Qur'an:
Although specifically promised that a general theme would be explained, I could not find one, apart from general rhetoric's and circular reasoning.
eg.
It is a light whose radiance shall not be extinguished;
A lamp whose flame shall not die;
An ocean whose depth shall not be fathomed;
brings them out of utter darkness into light by his will and guides them to the right path.” (5:15-16).

Shaykh-muslim-bhanji list around 30+ of these sayings.
I concede that repeating them day after day will strengthens ones allegiance to Islam, but I am to conclude that the Qur'an promotes repetition to build strong faith ?
I subsequently found out that Qur'an means "recitation". Thus it seems that mindless repetition is the theme of the Qur'an.
The verses of surah 1:1-7 devout Muslims have to repeat these verses at least 5 times a day.

The Gospel on the other hand appeal to a person power of deduction,logic and reason.(Ro 12:2) Repetition(as the nation do) was clearly to be avoided as it hinders clear thinking ability (Mat 6:7).


*Spiritual guidance:
According to Shaykh-muslim-bhanji spiritual guidance boils down to doing good and staying away from what is bad. Follow the light turn away from darkness etc...All commendable and true, but if not followed by applicable boundaries it's ultimately just poetry.
Is it then that the conduct of a worshipers of Allah is guided by mostly vague and unspecific rhetorics. No that is not the case, because the Shaykh, Califahs and Imam have used this mosaic of poetic wisdom and taken it upon themselves to craft a set of applicable and enforceable Islamic laws and boundaries(Sharia Law).
eg. temporary marriage (mut'ah), law on alcohol, polygamy, treatment of "unbelievers", subjection of women. This of course depends on the Islamic faction followed.

The bible on the other hand advocate exclusively accepting God's word as it's authority instead of following the dictates of men. The fact that Christendom has sadly deviated from this requirement since Emperor Constantine is another subject.

Other considerations are this:

why a new set of spiritual thoughts?
Why would God inspire a book exclusively for the Arabic Nations, and discourage translations ?
Why a "new God" presumably called "Allah", when in reality it's not his name, but means God in Arabic ?
How can a believer follow the creed (shahadah) "no God but Allah...", since praying "no God but God" makes no sense.
How does constant repetition of this creed make it more understandable ? (5 daily prayer towards Mecca (salat)).
What are the scriptural credentials for a "new prophet" called Muhammad ?
Is claiming to have a confrontation with an Angel or is having an ideitic memory enough credential to start a religion ?
Can Muhammad claim the support of hundreds of prophecies dating back hundreds of years prophesying his arrival as was the case with Christ ?
Is his authority higher than the one given to the son of God?

Why should we believe the Qur'an is inspired?

Note:
I do not pretend to know or understand Islam. The above are simply questions I asked myself when I considered the claim that the Qur'an is a book of truth. I asked similar questions when I researched the claims of the bible.

Should you wish to discuss one of these issues with me, I would be honored, but please restrict them to one or two subject.
Thanks.

I suppose that would beg the question, is it authentic, and what would determine that?
Was there any question that Moses words were authentic? No. The people were shown proof, in the signs Moses performed.
So, it was with Jesus, and the apostles.
What powerful signs did Muhammad perform, giving proof of authenticity of his message?
I am not aware they were any.

So why accept the Qur'an as inspired?

 

[Trailblazer]

I suppose that would beg the question, is it authentic, and what would determine that?
Was there any question that Moses words were authentic? No. The people were shown proof, in the signs Moses performed.
So, it was with Jesus, and the apostles.

But only according to the Bible. How does that prove anything? Was there any outside confirmatory evidence that proves anything that is in the Bible ever really happened?

What powerful signs did Muhammad perform, giving proof of authenticity of his message?
I am not aware they were any.

So why accept the Qur'an as inspired?

The Holy Qur'an is the proof of Muhammad just as the Holy Bible is the proof of Moses and Jesus.

 

[nPeace]

But only according to the Bible. How does that prove anything? Was there any outside confirmatory evidence that proves anything that is in the Bible ever really happened?

Most assuredly, yes.

The Holy Qur'an is the proof of Muhammad just as the Holy Bible is the proof of Moses and Jesus.

How so?
Would you not have to provide adequate evidence the Qur'an is not only authentic, but reliable?
If the Qur'an fails at authenticity, what evidence is there of it's reliability?

If the Bible originates with the creator, we should be able to find convincing evidence within it, that it is much more than a product of human wisdom.
Do we find that? Yes.

If the Bible is reliable, we have convincing evidence that Moses and Jesus did what the Bible states.
If there is no evidence the Qur'an is reliable, then it cannot serve any proof for Muhammad's claims.

What evidence is there the Qur'an is reliable, authentic?

 

[Trailblazer]

Most assuredly, yes.

What is the outside confirmatory evidence that proves anything that is in the Bible ever really happened?

How so?
Would you not have to provide adequate evidence the Qur'an is not only authentic, but reliable?
If the Qur'an fails at authenticity, what evidence is there of it's reliability?

What do you mean by authenticity? The Qur'an is much more authentic than the Bible.
It is known who the scribes were who wrote the Qur'an. How do you know who wrote any of what is in the Bible?

If the Bible originates with the creator, we should be able to find convincing evidence within it, that it is much more than a product of human wisdom.
Do we find that? Yes.

How can we know that the Bible originated with the creator? What proof do you have?

If the Bible is reliable, we have convincing evidence that Moses and Jesus did what the Bible states.
If there is no evidence the Qur'an is reliable, then it cannot serve any proof for Muhammad's claims.

What do you mean by reliable? How do you know that the Bible is reliable?

What evidence is there the Qur'an is reliable, authentic?

That would be a question for Muslims, and I am sire they could answer you.

 

[nPeace]

What is the outside confirmatory evidence that proves anything that is in the Bible ever really happened?

There is historical, scientific, tried, tested, and proven applied practical values, etc.

What do you mean by authenticity? The Qur'an is much more authentic than the Bible.

You don't know what authentic mean? How can you know a thing is authentic then? You can't know that one thing is more authentic than another, if you don't understand what it means.

It is known who the scribes were who wrote the Qur'an. How do you know who wrote any of what is in the Bible?

I meant the contents.
We know who wrote Harry Potter, but could we trust that what J.K. Rollins wrote is real or true?
For one thing, the Bible writers were honest about some of their most embarrassing failings. Even Moses - describe as the meekest of men, wrote of his serious failing and God's response to him, when he begged to be allowed to enter the Promised Land.
A lot of historical events have been confirmed, as well as people.

How can we know that the Bible originated with the creator? What proof do you have?

For one thing, its practicle value.
We would expect that a book from God - the creator of man - provided for man, would demonstrate superior wisdom. The Bible proves to be such a book. So that even those who think it contains nonsense in the form of, what they call myths, still hold on to the Bible for it practical counsel, and guidance on how to live, happy lives; have good relationships with others; peaceful family relations; honesty, and much more.

To note, the Qur'an actually points to the Bible - the oldest book, by far, so any claim that the Qur'an is superior would not be stating the truth.
“Allah, there is no god but He, the Living, the Eternal. He sent down to you the Book with the Truth, confirming what came before it; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.” Sura 3:2-3

The Qur'an also points to that same wisdom, so actually, the Qur'an is confirming the Bible's authenticity and reliability.
Sura 5:50-52

That does not make the Qur'an authentic, and it can't be superior.
If anything, it would be an imitation, or "wannabe".
Qur'an basically repeats most of the Bible (adding, taking away, dividing and multiplying), all the way down to the so called New Testament - Confirming what I said before
Sura 2
91. And when it is said to them, “Believe in what Allah has revealed,” they say, “We believe in what was revealed to us,” and they reject anything beyond that, although it is the truth which confirms what they have. Say, “Why did you kill Allah’s prophets before, if you were believers?” 92. Moses came to you with clear proofs, yet you adopted the calf in his absence, and you were in the wrong.

Sura 4
47. O you who were given the Book! Believe in what We sent down, confirming what you have, before

So if one rejects the NT, then they should reject the Qur'an, if they are honest, imo.
Sura 3
39 “Allah gives you good news of John; confirming a Word from Allah, and honorable, and moral, and a prophet; one of the upright.”
45. The Angels said, “O Mary, Allah gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, well-esteemed in this world and the next, and one of the nearest.
Sura 4
46. In their footsteps, We sent Jesus son of Mary, fulfilling the Torah that preceded him; and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah that preceded him, and guidance and counsel for the righteous
48. And We revealed to you the Book, with truth, confirming the Scripture that preceded it, and superseding it.

His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary Doesn't that sound strange?
I could see an author who examines a book written after his masterpiece having much of his work incorporated taking that person to court for plagiarism. Yet many today have no problem with the Quran - a book written recently - a few 100 years over a thousand.

Far worst than that, the book removes an important name, and replaces it. So the God - Allah - is nameless... nothing like the original That's serious, I think.
Perhaps you may not know, but I wonder if anyone has an answer for why the Quran is not confirmatory of previous Scriptures as regards the name of God.

What do you mean by reliable? How do you know that the Bible is reliable?

reliable - able to be trusted.
Can we trust the Bible?

That would be a question for Muslims, and I am sire they could answer you.

So, you just said "The Qur'an is much more authentic than the Bible." but there was no basis for saying it.
I understand.

Right now, the Qur'an just has the claims.

Spoiler: Claim

Sura 10
37. This Quran could not have been produced by anyone other than Allah. In fact, it is a confirmation of what preceded it, and an elaboration of the Book. There is no doubt about it—it is from the Lord of the Universe. 38. Or do they say, “He has forged it”? Say, “Then produce a single chapter like it, and call upon whomever you can, apart from Allah, if you are truthful.”

It's lacking evidence confirming its reliability or authenticity. It rather bears heavy marks of plagiarism, and a lot of repetition.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is historical, scientific, tried, tested, and proven applied practical values, etc.

That certainly is not what I have been hearing from other quarters.
What historical evidence to you have to back the Bible stories? What scientific evidence do you have?

You don't know what authentic mean? How can you know a thing is authentic then? You can't know that one thing is more authentic than another, if you don't understand what it means.

I do know what authentic means. It means of undisputed origin; genuine. The Bible is not authentic because we have no idea who wrote it.

I meant the contents.
We know who wrote Harry Potter, but could we trust that what J.K. Rollins wrote is real or true?
For one thing, the Bible writers were honest about some of their most embarrassing failings. Even Moses - describe as the meekest of men, wrote of his serious failing and God's response to him, when he begged to be allowed to enter the Promised Land.
A lot of historical events have been confirmed, as well as people.

How do we know what is in the Bible is real or true? How could that ever be proven? Just because some of the events and historical figures might have been confirmed that does not mean the whole Bible is true.

For one thing, its practicle value.
We would expect that a book from God - the creator of man - provided for man, would demonstrate superior wisdom. The Bible proves to be such a book. So that even those who think it contains nonsense in the form of, what they call myths, still hold on to the Bible for it practical counsel, and guidance on how to live, happy lives; have good relationships with others; peaceful family relations; honesty, and much more.

I agree that the Bible contains a lot of practical wisdom, and I call these the eternal spiritual truths we can find in all religious scriptures.

To note, the Qur'an actually points to the Bible - the oldest book, by far, so any claim that the Qur'an is superior would not be stating the truth.
“Allah, there is no god but He, the Living, the Eternal. He sent down to you the Book with the Truth, confirming what came before it; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.” Sura 3:2-3

The Qur'an also points to that same wisdom, so actually, the Qur'an is confirming the Bible's authenticity and reliability.
Sura 5:50-52

That does not make the Qur'an authentic, and it can't be superior.
If anything, it would be an imitation, or "wannabe".
Qur'an basically repeats most of the Bible (adding, taking away, dividing and multiplying), all the way down to the so called New Testament - Confirming what I said before
Sura 2
91. And when it is said to them, “Believe in what Allah has revealed,” they say, “We believe in what was revealed to us,” and they reject anything beyond that, although it is the truth which confirms what they have. Say, “Why did you kill Allah’s prophets before, if you were believers?” 92. Moses came to you with clear proofs, yet you adopted the calf in his absence, and you were in the wrong.

Sura 4
47. O you who were given the Book! Believe in what We sent down, confirming what you have, before

So if one rejects the NT, then they should reject the Qur'an, if they are honest, imo.
Sura 3
39 “Allah gives you good news of John; confirming a Word from Allah, and honorable, and moral, and a prophet; one of the upright.”
45. The Angels said, “O Mary, Allah gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, well-esteemed in this world and the next, and one of the nearest.
Sura 4
46. In their footsteps, We sent Jesus son of Mary, fulfilling the Torah that preceded him; and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah that preceded him, and guidance and counsel for the righteous
48. And We revealed to you the Book, with truth, confirming the Scripture that preceded it, and superseding it.

His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary Doesn't that sound strange?
I could see an author who examines a book written after his masterpiece having much of his work incorporated taking that person to court for plagiarism. Yet many today have no problem with the Quran - a book written recently - a few 100 years over a thousand.

Far worst than that, the book removes an important name, and replaces it. So the God - Allah - is nameless... nothing like the original That's serious, I think.
Perhaps you may not know, but I wonder if anyone has an answer for why the Quran is not confirmatory of previous Scriptures as regards the name of God.


reliable - able to be trusted.
Can we trust the Bible?
So, you just said "The Qur'an is much more authentic than the Bible." but there was no basis for saying it.
I understand.

I did not say that the Qur'an is superior to the Bible but I believe it is more authentic.
The basis for saying it is what the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith wrote:

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

Right now, the Qur'an just has the claims.

Spoiler: Claim

Sura 10
37. This Quran could not have been produced by anyone other than Allah. In fact, it is a confirmation of what preceded it, and an elaboration of the Book. There is no doubt about it—it is from the Lord of the Universe. 38. Or do they say, “He has forged it”? Say, “Then produce a single chapter like it, and call upon whomever you can, apart from Allah, if you are truthful.”

It's lacking evidence confirming its reliability or authenticity. It rather bears heavy marks of plagiarism, and a lot of repetition.

The Qur'an is not plagiarism just because it refers to the Bible. Muhammad got His own revelation from God, He did not copy anything form the Bible.

 

[nPeace]

That certainly is not what I have been hearing from other quarters.

Well if everyone spoke "one language" the world would not be divided, would it.

What historical evidence to you have to back the Bible stories? What scientific evidence do you have?

See the thread I linked. It's nothing that hasn't been repeated hundreds of time. I believe you have been here for quite some time now... longer than I have, actually.

I do know what authentic means. It means of undisputed origin; genuine. The Bible is not authentic because we have no idea who wrote it.

It appears you don't understand. I'll try to explain.
Take the Palermo Stone - one of seven surviving fragments of a stele known as the Royal Annals of the Old Kingdom of Ancient Egypt. The stele contained a list of the kings of Egypt from the First Dynasty (c. 3150–2890 BCE) through to the early part of the Fifth Dynasty (c. 2392–2283 BCE) and noted significant events in each year of their reigns.

Does anyone know who documented it? No.
Does that fact make it not genuine? No.
Why not? It is not about who wrote it. It is about whether what is written is genuine, or true.
Investigating the contents - not the author, will help in forming a conclusion on its authenticity.

To say something is not authentic, because we do not know who wrote it, is, to put it mildly, inaccurate.
Hope you understand.

However, I think it's more accurate to say, You say you don't know... and that may, or may not be true - depending on what source of information you have.

To say nobody knows - I must ask, on what basis - is to say we don't know anything, even what we think we know. Take for example, Josephus. Do we know that he even existed, and wrote anything attributed to him?
What about Babylonians - The Babylonian Chronicles are a series of tablets recording major events in Babylonian history. They are thus one of the first steps in the development of ancient historiography. The Babylonian Chronicles were written in Babylonian cuneiform, from the reign of Nabonassar up to the Parthian Period, by Babylonian astronomers ("Chaldaeans"), who probably used the Astronomical Diaries as their source.
What about the Assyrian history? Sennacherib's Annals are the annals of the Assyrian king Sennacherib. They are found inscribed on a number of artifacts...

Using your logic - You said you believe in being logical - what the secular world holds as history, based on past historians, whom none of us know - according to you - existed, or could even write one letter (For all we know, they could have been disabled physically, unable to write. Or even illiterate), is merely an unknown history, and everything they hold to be genuine, and significant to filling in the gaps on history, is actually unknown.
Take again the Palermo Stone/
Significance
The Palermo Stone and the other associated fragments of the Royal Annals are a vital source for the history of the Old Kingdom and, for example, preserve names of members of the royal families during the first five dynasties, which are not otherwise recorded.

By your logic, that "history", is actually a blank slate, which no one knows. Is that not what you are saying, when you claim that "we don't know who wrote the Bible".

How do we know what is in the Bible is real or true? How could that ever be proven? Just because some of the events and historical figures might have been confirmed that does not mean the whole Bible is true.

Going by your logic again, we don't know anything is true.
However, just as we can confirm certain things, by having, say for example, witnesses take the stand, and testify to what they saw, or we can look for corroborative evidence, etc., verifying the reliability, and trustworthiness of the Bible, is no different.

The thing is, a lot of what the Bible says has been confirmed. Are you saying everything must be confirmed? I'm sure if everything were confirmed people will still find something they think needs confirming - Like maybe, that David bathed his skin and changed his clothes.

I agree that the Bible contains a lot of practical wisdom, and I call these the eternal spiritual truths we can find in all religious scriptures.

Can you name one religious text older than the Bible, containing practical wisdom.
Then can you name one that was ahead of modern scientific discoveries... older than the Bible.
I believe that if I learned something from an ancient knowledge, I can take that knowledge, and add to my own scripture.
So it is quite likely that a lot of religious texts borrowed knowledge from ancient sources. whether orally, or written..

The Bible, is unique in many ways, from texts older than it.
The reason for that, seems obvious, as it writers were of the nation that is original in its relation to the true God... as well as those of their forefathers.

I did not say that the Qur'an is superior to the Bible but I believe it is more authentic.
The basis for saying it is what the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith wrote:

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

Hopefully, you now - not just know what authentic means, but how to apply, or use the term.
People will have differing opinions, on who wrote what, and who didn't write what. I believe that will continue until God puts an end to it.

The Qur'an is not plagiarism just because it refers to the Bible. Muhammad got His own revelation from God, He did not copy anything form the Bible.

Okay, so you know that Muhammad got his revelation from God, but you don't know who wrote the Bible.
How do you know Muhammad got his revelation from God, when you admitted that you can't answer the question 'What evidence is there the Qur'an is reliable, authentic?'

Are we to conclude that you no longer are interested in evidence... you just believe it, and claim to know?

There is no evidence at all that Muhammad received any revelation from God, nor that the Qur'an was inspired by God.
As I said before, no signs confirming that were ever performed by him.
The Qur'an claims to confirm the Bible, but it doesn't do that. It contradicts the Bible... and historians.
Sura 4
157. And for their saying, “We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.” In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him. 158. Rather, Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Mighty and Wise.

That's just one of many places.

 

[Rival]

Can you name one religious text older than the Bible, containing practical wisdom.

The Maxims of Ptahhotep - Wikipedia

The Maxims of Ptahhotep or Instruction of Ptahhotep is an ancient Egyptian literary composition composed by the Vizier Ptahhotep around 2375–2350 BC, during the rule of King Djedkare Isesi of the Fifth Dynasty.[1] The text was discovered in Thebes in 1847 by Egyptologist M. Prisse d'Avennes.[2] The Instructions of Ptahhotep are considered didactic wisdom literature belonging to the genre of sebayt.[3]