Is the Qur'an Inspired ?

[nPeace]

The Maxims of Ptahhotep - Wikipedia

The Maxims of Ptahhotep or Instruction of Ptahhotep is an ancient Egyptian literary composition composed by the Vizier Ptahhotep around 2375–2350 BC, during the rule of King Djedkare Isesi of the Fifth Dynasty.[1] The text was discovered in Thebes in 1847 by Egyptologist M. Prisse d'Avennes.[2] The Instructions of Ptahhotep are considered didactic wisdom literature belonging to the genre of sebayt.[3]

Thank you. Will check it out, and get back to you.

 

[Link]

Break it down. Let's talk about just the 13th chapter. This Surah is amazing to me for many reasons. Keep it to that, and let's discuss it. If you are overwhelmed by sheer amount of arguments in Quran, just break it down, focus one chapter. Keep reciting same chapter and reflect over it.

 

[RestlessSoul]

ok

you said to limit a discussion with you to one or two subjects

i have one.

you said you looked for a general theme of the Quran

what do you think is the general theme of the Bible?

The Bible is not one book, it’s several. So to narrow the collection of books down to a single theme is a bit reductive.

But I suppose taken as a whole, it’s about a people’s relationship with their God; and how that Hebrew story began to be heard throughout the Greco Roman world.

 

[firedragon]

Why would God inspire a book exclusively for the Arabic Nations, and discourage translations ?

Who said that?

Why a "new God" presumably called "Allah", when in reality it's not his name, but means God in Arabic ?

before Muhammed, there were Christians called "Abdullah". Abd Allah. So are you saying its still a "New God"? Maybe you should do some research.

How can a believer follow the creed (shahadah) "no God but Allah...", since praying "no God but God" makes no sense.

Shahadah does not mean praying "no god but god". Its a fundamental. Not a prayer. Who said that this is a "prayer"?


Lets take these questions. Yep, afterward the others.

Please explain your epistemology.

 

[firedragon]

If the Qur'an fails at authenticity, what evidence is there of it's reliability?

Can you explain how the Quran would "fail at authenticity"? Is it in relative terms? As in in comparison to the New Testament or the Gospels or something? Or is it in isolation as a book which is not authentic?

Why?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

The Bible is not one book, it’s several. So to narrow the collection of books down to a single theme is a bit reductive.

But I suppose taken as a whole, it’s about a people’s relationship with their God; and how that Hebrew story began to be heard throughout the Greco Roman world.

ah, ok.

i’m going to use common views from the Christian religion here:

if the Bible is the word of God (period)

and if Jesus was God incarnate (period)

and if one searched the scriptures to find what Jesus thought about them, you would most likely have the answer, don’t you think?

 

[firedragon]

If the Bible originates with the creator, we should be able to find convincing evidence within it, that it is much more than a product of human wisdom.
Do we find that? Yes.

nPeace. Do you think by saying "yes" you have given enough evidence that "Bible originates with the creator and there is convincing evidence within it"?

Absolutely not.

Do you have a shred of evidence, that any of the books have any length of adjacency to the prophet or God incarnate in concern as the source of Gods information?

Please provide evidence.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I asked myself this question as I was reading a featured comment on RF.
Using my favorite search engine I proceeded to find a site that could answer this question one way or another.
Shaykh-muslim-bhanji at Islam.org seemed to fit the bill as it promised to answer the following issues.

understanding the Qur'an
A complete code of life
the study of the Qur'an
it can shape the Destiny of the Human Race
Qur'an is understandable
Qur'an is for all...
Qur'an is a miracle.
Attraction of the Qu'ran
Methods used for training humans..

I read each of these pages with the goal of finding,
first: a comparisons and similarities with the Gospel accounts,
Second: a general theme and
Third: specific spiritual guidance.

I looked for similarities between the Gospel and Qur'an in following area:

The importance of the Kingdom.
The meaning of the ransom sacrifice.
Specific requirements in obeying God.
Jesus identity as the son of God and reasons he could be viewed as the last prophet.
The identifying mark of false prophets.

Similarities found: None
*Shaykh-muslim-bhanji mentions not one of these fundamental messages of the Gospel as being part of the Qu'ran.
Although the bulk of the narratives of the Qur'an have their biblical parallel, some claim that a comparative study of the Koranic and biblical narratives reveals no verbal dependence or direct quotations.

I looked for a General theme of the Qur'an:
Although specifically promised that a general theme would be explained, I could not find one, apart from general rhetoric's and circular reasoning.
eg.
It is a light whose radiance shall not be extinguished;
A lamp whose flame shall not die;
An ocean whose depth shall not be fathomed;
brings them out of utter darkness into light by his will and guides them to the right path.” (5:15-16).

Shaykh-muslim-bhanji list around 30+ of these sayings.
I concede that repeating them day after day will strengthens ones allegiance to Islam, but I am to conclude that the Qur'an promotes repetition to build strong faith ?
I subsequently found out that Qur'an means "recitation". Thus it seems that mindless repetition is the theme of the Qur'an.
The verses of surah 1:1-7 devout Muslims have to repeat these verses at least 5 times a day.

The Gospel on the other hand appeal to a person power of deduction,logic and reason.(Ro 12:2) Repetition(as the nation do) was clearly to be avoided as it hinders clear thinking ability (Mat 6:7).


*Spiritual guidance:
According to Shaykh-muslim-bhanji spiritual guidance boils down to doing good and staying away from what is bad. Follow the light turn away from darkness etc...All commendable and true, but if not followed by applicable boundaries it's ultimately just poetry.
Is it then that the conduct of a worshipers of Allah is guided by mostly vague and unspecific rhetorics. No that is not the case, because the Shaykh, Califahs and Imam have used this mosaic of poetic wisdom and taken it upon themselves to craft a set of applicable and enforceable Islamic laws and boundaries(Sharia Law).
eg. temporary marriage (mut'ah), law on alcohol, polygamy, treatment of "unbelievers", subjection of women. This of course depends on the Islamic faction followed.

The bible on the other hand advocate exclusively accepting God's word as it's authority instead of following the dictates of men. The fact that Christendom has sadly deviated from this requirement since Emperor Constantine is another subject.

Other considerations are this:

why a new set of spiritual thoughts?
Why would God inspire a book exclusively for the Arabic Nations, and discourage translations ?
Why a "new God" presumably called "Allah", when in reality it's not his name, but means God in Arabic ?
How can a believer follow the creed (shahadah) "no God but Allah...", since praying "no God but God" makes no sense.
How does constant repetition of this creed make it more understandable ? (5 daily prayer towards Mecca (salat)).
What are the scriptural credentials for a "new prophet" called Muhammad ?
Is claiming to have a confrontation with an Angel or is having an ideitic memory enough credential to start a religion ?
Can Muhammad claim the support of hundreds of prophecies dating back hundreds of years prophesying his arrival as was the case with Christ ?
Is his authority higher than the one given to the son of God?

Why should we believe the Qur'an is inspired?

Note:
I do not pretend to know or understand Islam. The above are simply questions I asked myself when I considered the claim that the Qur'an is a book of truth. I asked similar questions when I researched the claims of the bible.

Should you wish to discuss one of these issues with me, I would be honored, but please restrict them to one or two subject.
Thanks.

The Quran I believe beyond any doubt is the inspired Word of God. Islam began by Prophet Muhammad proclaiming that there is only one God to the Meccans who worshipped some 360 idols which provided great wealth by traders through tributes to these gods. For teaching that there was only one God both He and His followers were tortured, killed, stoned and exiled.

Eventually, the teaching that there was only one God won over the entire Arabian Peninsula and united the warring tribes into one great nation.

As well, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad constitute the greatest teachers of Christianity about 1.7 billion people today accept Christ because of the Quran. No Christian preacher has ever converted 1.7 billion people or anywhere near it.

Another concept, unknown at the time was freedom of religion. Muslims won the right to freedom of worship after many years or persecution and we now see that this concept is now enshrined in the universal declaration of human rights and the cornerstone of democracy.

The Constitution of Medina was the first constitution in the world that granted religious rights to Jews and Christians.

The concept the nation state was promulgated by the Quran known as the Ummah. It gave momentum to nation building throughout the world.

Muslims made many significant contributions to the world in many scientific fields. Things like algebra, medicine, and translations of the works of Plato and Aristotle reached and inspired the west.

 

[whosetosay...]

But that all depends on believing what the bible says about it. If you believe what the Koran has to say, you will come to a different conclusion.

Read the Koran and Jesus was not born in an hollowed out tree. It is about believing in God and knowing that it is about whom he chooses and who he blesses. Not sure why you think that reading both would bring you to any other conclusion than if God is real then only the bible can be correct. As the Koran/Qur'an negates the promises regarding the Son and the covenants about the Messiah, then we cannot believe that both are about the same God.

Why should anyone think the bible is more right than the Koran?

More right... is there such a thing? God has so far done all he said he would in the bible. The temple mount in Jerusalem where the Muslims have written in the dome. " God has no son" Do you believe writing that really counts for anything? Jesus said in John 4
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.


20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.


21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.


22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


The temple of God will be rebuilt in Jerusalem but true worship is not about building any longer. True worship is about Spirit and truth. In Jerusalem the Jews allow all to come and worship with them as God said would happen. But only Muslims allowed in the dome building to pray. So perhaps what we actually know of the bible and the Koran tells us what is truth in the world today.

 

[whosetosay...]

How do you know that? You don't know it, you believe it. Likewise, Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the inspired Word of God through the Angel Gabriel.

It is about knowing the bible, Trailblazer, not just supposing. The bible and today, prove what I have said to be true. God is not a liar and if you realized that saying you are descendant of Ishmael does not make you one. Ishmael was a Jew he was circumcised.

Why would it lay claim to that? The Qur'an is a new revelation from God through the prophet Muhammad.
Do you really think that God could never speak again after the Bible was written?

Mahomet , is the real name.
He claimed an angel not Gods Holy Spirit was the one who brought him the revelations. God does speak look at Jesus Christ and Moses was the one who wrote the first five books, it is believed. My words are Spirit and they are life. David when he sinned asked God not to take his Spirit from him. If you do not know the bible how can you ever understand the truth it contains which people can make statements and have the bible prove them. This is very important.

 

[Trailblazer]

Mahomet , is the real name.
He claimed an angel not Gods Holy Spirit was the one who brought him the revelations.

Whenever God speaks, He speaks through the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit spoke to the angel Gabriel and that is the medium through which Muhammad received his revelations.

God does speak look at Jesus Christ and Moses was the one who wrote the first five books, it is believed.

It might be "believed" that Moses wrote the first five books but that is not a fact.

Moses
Many scholars see the biblical Moses as a mythical figure, while retaining the possibility that a Moses-like figure existed.[13][14][15][16] Whomever Moses was, scholars today agree almost unanimously that the Torah is the work of many authors over many centuries.[11] Even among evangelical scholars, the Mosaic authorship is endorsed only by the most conservative among them.[17] Jewish scholars such as Shaye J. D. Cohen and Richard Elliott Friedman also reject the Mosaic authorship.[18][19] Friedman declared "At present, however, there is hardly a biblical scholar in the world actively working on the problem who would claim that the Five Books of Moses were written by Moses — or by any one person."[19][20] Cohen stated about the battle of modern Bible scholars against traditional views of authorship of the Torah: "The great battleground is the Torah (the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses): is the Torah the earliest biblical book, revealed by God to Moses shortly after the Exodus, around 1300-1200 BCE, or one of the latest, not completed until the exilic period – or later? (see Kugel)".[18]
Mosaic authorship - Wikipedia[/QUOTE]

 

[Neuropteron]

Why should we believe the bible is inspired?

Hi Exchemist,
Hi,
I cannot speak for others, but I believe the bible is inspired because of the research I did.
I could also mention personal experience that harmonizes with bible teaching, but that is not a reason for other to believe in the bible. For that reason I do not mention them.
It's like Mohammad claiming to have seen an angel, that very nice for him, but why should that influence my belief in any way.
Claims are like opinions and noses, everybody has one.
After due research things that could influence belief in the bible are
Prophetic accuracies
Internal harmony
Candeur
Theme.(everything has a relation to the theme.)
Benefit when bible principles are followed.
Historical background.

 

[Neuropteron]

How can you compare the two?
The bible inspired by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, The Qur'an does not uphold the teachings of YHWH in the bible and Ishmael would never have gone against the will of God in person. Ishmael was a Jew himself under the covenant of Abraham. I think it is an interesting discussion but it cannot be one which receives any support from YHWH and the bible.

We know the OT and the NT teaches that the words of the Prophets and Christ all came from the teachings of Gods Holy Spirit. The Qur'an cannot lay claim to such works as the Prophets including Moses and Jesus. Till we can get past these truths according to the Word of God in the bible there is no reason to believe the Qur'an inspired by YHWH and his prophets. Willing to learn if you have anything further.

Hi Whosetosay,
Hi,
Thanks for your comments, I completely agree with what you say.

The bible does not leave room for either another prophet after Christ or a new inspired book before the Millennial reign. According to Revelation this new information will come in the form of scrolls (either literal or figurative).

However the Qur'an does acknowledges that some of the bible is the word of God. For instance Surah 3:2,NJD says:"He has revealed to you the Book with the truth...for the guidance of men and the distinction between right and wrong. This text is referring to the bible.
Additionally there is many biblical parallels amongst the OT characters.
For instance Abraham is mentioned about seventy times in the Qur'an.
Perhaps for this reason some draw a comparison between the two books.

 

[Neuropteron]

We could apply this to your religion from the Jewish POV.

why a new set of spiritual thoughts?
The 'New Testament' is considered this from the Jewish POV.

Why would God inspire a book exclusively for the Arabic Nations, and discourage translations ?
There is a minor fast day in Judaism for the day the Torah was translated into Greek. English translations aren't great, either.

Why a "new God" presumably called "Allah", when in reality it's not his name, but means God in Arabic ?
'Allah' means God the same way 'God' means 'God' in English. It's the same. There's no difference. How about Christians praying to the man they believe is the Mashiach? Why a new god?

How can a believer follow the creed (shahadah) "no God but Allah...", since praying "no God but God" makes no sense.



How about the Christians' Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed? They make no sense according to Jewish belief.

How does constant repetition of this creed make it more understandable ? (5 daily prayer towards Mecca (salat)).
It's about the prayer. There's repetition in every religious service you will go to. It's about knowing what you believe and drumming it into yourself. I've listed two of Christianity's repeated creeds above.

What are the scriptural credentials for a "new prophet" called Muhammad ?
What are the scriptural credentials for a 'messiah' that is a human sacrifice?

Is claiming to have a confrontation with an Angel or is having an ideitic memory enough credential to start a religion ?
Is having a visitation from an angel on one's way to Damascus enough credential to be considered an apostle, especially given the two differing accounts of it?

Can Muhammad claim the support of hundreds of prophecies dating back hundreds of years prophesying his arrival as was the case with Christ ?
There aren't hundreds of messianic prophecies and Jesus fulfilled none. So yes, what are his credentials?

Is his authority higher than the one given to the son of God?
In Judaism, there is no such 'Son of God' concept as one finds in Christianity, so we go back to your first question.

First cast the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Hi Rival,

It's a straight forward creed: There is no God but [the one] God.

The problem is that it's only straightforward when we don't think about it.
For instance: we can only say there is "no King but the King" if there were only one King in the world, because then we would know who we're talking about.
as soon as there is more than one King we are obligated to specify what King we are talking about.
eg. "there is no King but Solomon". "there is no Pharaoh but Amenhotep" God, Allah, King and Pharaoh are titles.
The sentence "there is no "title" but "title" goes against common sense, logic and even plain grammar.
It should be "there is no "Allah" but "a personal name".
To sum it up there are many Gods, Allah's, Kings, Pharaohs etc...
But there is only one Jehovah, Jesus, Solomon, Amenhotep etc...
The same goes for the Nicene Creed, it makes no sense not only to the Jews but to any rational thinking person.

As for the Apostles Creed I have to admit ignorance.

Christendom does many things contrary to Christ's teaching, Repetition in praying is one of them.
What are the scriptural credentials for a 'messiah' that is a human sacrifice?
The Prophecies.

Is having a visitation from an angel on one's way to Damascus enough credential to be considered an apostle?
You are right, it's not. That's why the disciples were very suspicious. It's what happened afterwards that's important.
The point is the Angel's appearance only made a difference to Saul not the disciples.

The Messiah's credentials are the prophecies regarding his arrival, this including the time of his birth. Subsequently the miracles he performed and fulfilling prophecies.

Judaism, there is no such 'Son of God' concept as one finds in Christianity,
Actually there is: Job 1:6 "...The sons of the true God entered to take their station...)
The bible states that Jesus is God's firstborn creation (son) and came to earth to instruct mankind in "all we need".
If we accept that, why would we need another lower ranking prophet restricted to one nation and one language?

 

[Neuropteron]

While I'm not familiar with the Quran I know the bible isn't inspired. Still waiting for Egypt to be utterly destroyed with no living things to cross it's lands for 40 years.
Ezekiel 29:10-12

Hi TheBannerofHomuraAkemi,
Eze 29 Prophesied a 40 year devastation and desolation not an eternal one. If it had been forever 40 years wouldn't have been mentioned.
This prophesy was possibly fulfilled in 716-662 BCE when Assyrian King Esar-haddon invaded Egypt and conquered Memphis. In 625 Egypt was defeated again by the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar.

 

[Neuropteron]

Hi @Neuropteron
Since you touched on the Quran as a miracle you might wish to view this illuminating clip debunking some of the commonly acclaimed scientific miracles of the Quran, particularly since it goes one step further than merely debunking the miracles and demonstrates how the underlying thinking that accepts these miracles is wrong conclusively in my opinion;

Hi Daniel,
Thank you.

 

[Neuropteron]

I suppose that would beg the question, is it authentic, and what would determine that?
Was there any question that Moses words were authentic? No. The people were shown proof, in the signs Moses performed.
So, it was with Jesus, and the apostles.
What powerful signs did Muhammad perform, giving proof of authenticity of his message?
I am not aware they were any.

So why accept the Qur'an as inspired?

Hi nPeace,
It's logical that a person born in an Islamic country and has repeated the same mantra day after day would have a very difficult time believing anything else. Repetition when pushed to the extreme is the perfect indoctrination tool.
Apart from that, why indeed?

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

Hi TheBannerofHomuraAkemi,
Eze 29 Prophesied a 40 year devastation and desolation not an eternal one. If it had been forever 40 years wouldn't have been mentioned.
This prophesy was possibly fulfilled in 716-662 BCE when Assyrian King Esar-haddon invaded Egypt and conquered Memphis. In 625 Egypt was defeated again by the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar.

Not what the text says. The text says no man, no beast shall cross the land for forty years. Now point a time in history were that is documented.

 

[danieldemol]

As well, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad constitute the greatest teachers of Christianity about 1.7 billion people today accept Christ because of the Quran. No Christian preacher has ever converted 1.7 billion people or anywhere near it.

Neither has Muhammad or the Quran ever converted 1.7billion people or close to it, but conflating birth rates with conversion rates is a type of dishonesty.
In my opinion

 

[exchemist]

Hi Exchemist,
Hi,
I cannot speak for others, but I believe the bible is inspired because of the research I did.
I could also mention personal experience that harmonizes with bible teaching, but that is not a reason for other to believe in the bible. For that reason I do not mention them.
It's like Mohammad claiming to have seen an angel, that very nice for him, but why should that influence my belief in any way.
Claims are like opinions and noses, everybody has one.
After due research things that could influence belief in the bible are
Prophetic accuracies
Internal harmony
Candeur
Theme.(everything has a relation to the theme.)
Benefit when bible principles are followed.
Historical background.

Yes, so you personally may believe the bible is inspired, but you can't offer any reasons to persuade others to join you in that belief. It will be the same with the Koran, I have no doubt.