Is the Qur'an Inspired ?

[Neuropteron]

Who said that?



before Muhammed, there were Christians called "Abdullah". Abd Allah. So are you saying its still a "New God"? Maybe you should do some research.



Shahadah does not mean praying "no god but god". Its a fundamental. Not a prayer. Who said that this is a "prayer"?


Lets take these questions. Yep, afterward the others.

Please explain your epistemology.

Hi,
I do not have an epistemology concerning the Muslim faith, I was asking questions.

Shahādah, (Arabic: “testimony”) the Muslim profession of faith: “There is no god but God; (Encyclopaedia Britannica.

I am surprise you are unaware of the Caliph and Imams instruction that the Qur'an should not be translated. Do not ask me prove it, I'm sure you are capable of using a search engine to find that information yourself.

Concerning your instruction to do more research:
I do not see it as my duty to instruct anyone in the Islamic faith, thus see no advantage to spend further time to do in depth research to that end.
Furthermore I am happy to let those that find solace and conviction in doctrinal incantation do so in peace.

 

[Neuropteron]

Not what the text says. The text says no man, no beast shall cross the land for forty years. Now point a time in history were that is documented.

Many bible historical events are not part of world history. It can be a stumbling block for some.
The fact that they are not part of history does not mean that they never happened. It just is not proven.

 

[Neuropteron]

Yes, so you personally may believe the bible is inspired, but you can't offer any reasons to persuade others to join you in that belief. It will be the same with the Koran, I have no doubt.

Very true.
I am in no position to persuade others. Even if I could I would not attempt it, since only if we persuade ourselves can we have a strong foundation for our faith.

 

[firedragon]

I am surprise you are unaware of the Caliph and Imams instruction that the Qur'an should not be translated.

Which khalif said that?

Do not ask me prove it, I'm sure you are capable of using a search engine to find that information yourself.

Yet I suppose since you said "Dont ask me" you are not interested in conversations but making statements.

Concerning your instruction to do more research:
I do not see it as my duty to instruct anyone in the Islamic faith, thus see no advantage to spend further time to do in depth research to that end.
Furthermore I am happy to let those that find solace and conviction in doctrinal incantation do so in peace.

Alright. No problem. Dont do research. Its your prerogative.

I will just say your statements I addressed are bogus. Just made up.

Have a good day.

 

[danieldemol]

Yes, so you personally may believe the bible is inspired, but you can't offer any reasons to persuade others to join you in that belief. It will be the same with the Koran, I have no doubt.

Exactly, there is no evidence that either the Bible or the Quran are the word of God, it is just what people believe.

 

[nPeace]

@Rival I just logged on t let you know, I will be quite busy for a few days. I got through reading half of the page here, but as soon as I have more time, I will finish the reading, and we can talk. Later.

Can you explain how the Quran would "fail at authenticity"? Is it in relative terms? As in in comparison to the New Testament or the Gospels or something? Or is it in isolation as a book which is not authentic?

Why?

I think I explained that, and I said more than just what you quoted, so I think you picked the result from the failed answer to the question that proceeded it.
If you want to attempt the question, then the answer might be available.

Anyway, I got to go. I just dropped in to let someone know I'll be missing a few days. Duty calls. Later.

 

[whosetosay...]

Whenever God speaks, He speaks through the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit spoke to the angel Gabriel and that is the medium through which Muhammad received his revelations.

God commands his Angels himself. Gabriel was a messenger who appeared to people like Mary to tell them what would happen to her. But the word of God came unto man by the Holy Spirit. Gabriel, would never have given anything to another human being concerning Gods word especially contradictory.
It is said that the devil can be transformed into an angel of light. His greatest deception to fool who?
KJV
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Joseph Smith the founder of the Mormons said:Angel Moroni is an angel whom Joseph Smith reported as having visited him on numerous occasions, beginning on September 21, 1823. According to Smith, the angel was the guardian of the golden plates,

I suppose they should combine their books. You see there is only one God he does not lie and he has only ever shown himself to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants. Ishmael was a Jew he was never a Muslim and would never advise his nation to ignore the truth.

It might be "believed" that Moses wrote the first five books but that is not a fact.

The books passed down from generation to generation since Moses wrote them. You think the Jews would not be sure about who wrote the books?

Moses
Many scholars see the biblical Moses as a mythical figure, while retaining the possibility that a Moses-like figure existed.[13][14][15][16] Whomever Moses was, scholars today agree almost unanimously that the Torah is the work of many authors over many centuries.[11] Even among evangelical scholars, the Mosaic authorship is endorsed only by the most conservative among them.[17] Jewish scholars such as Shaye J. D. Cohen and Richard Elliott Friedman also reject the Mosaic authorship.[18][19] Friedman declared "At present, however, there is hardly a biblical scholar in the world actively working on the problem who would claim that the Five Books of Moses were written by Moses — or by any one person."[19][20] Cohen stated about the battle of modern Bible scholars against traditional views of authorship of the Torah: "The great battleground is the Torah (the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses): is the Torah the earliest biblical book, revealed by God to Moses shortly after the Exodus, around 1300-1200 BCE, or one of the latest, not completed until the exilic period – or later? (see Kugel)".[18]
Mosaic authorship - Wikipedia

Do you not know the history of the Torah and the Pentateuch and the Septuagint written in Greek by Jewish Scholars in 3rd and 2nd century BC. The fact is they all, Jews that is, has to learn it off by heart. We see in the new testament the Jewish disciples brought to mind what the Prophets had said which they knew by heart. Make no mistake there is no doubt that from Moses to present day the Jews remembered by heart what they learned and passed on. Sometimes the history of a people teaches us more about the truth than historians.

So we see that the Holy Spirit brought the word of God to his Prophets. Not angels with gold plates to transcribe.

 

[whosetosay...]

Hi Whosetosay,
Hi,
Thanks for your comments, I completely agree with what you say.

The bible does not leave room for either another prophet after Christ or a new inspired book before the Millennial reign. According to Revelation this new information will come in the form of scrolls (either literal or figurative).

However the Qur'an does acknowledges that some of the bible is the word of God. For instance Surah 3:2,NJD says:"He has revealed to you the Book with the truth...for the guidance of men and the distinction between right and wrong. This text is referring to the bible.
Additionally there is many biblical parallels amongst the OT characters.
For instance Abraham is mentioned about seventy times in the Qur'an.
Perhaps for this reason some draw a comparison between the two books.

There is no comparison it is a little like someone writing about Christ in a newspaper or book today and claiming the book to be Gods word. It does not have any significance when the person was not a witness like the disciples.

 

[Shakeel]

The verses of surah 1:1-7 devout Muslims have to repeat these verses at least 5 times a day.

17 times a day at least.
Prayer is obligatory for Muslims, in general. There are no specific Muslims for whom it is not obligatory.

The Gospel on the other hand appeal to a person power of deduction,logic and reason.(Ro 12:2) Repetition(as the nation do) was clearly to be avoided as it hinders clear thinking ability (Mat 6:7).

Romans 12:2 has hardly anything to do with deduction, logic and reason.

Where does Matthew 6:7 mention critical thinking?

Matthew 26:44 "So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing."

The bible on the other hand advocate exclusively accepting God's word as it's authority instead of following the dictates of men.

Which brings up the question, why do you oppose polygamy when the Bible doesn't prohibit it, but rather presents it as an example multiple times?

Why a "new God" presumably called "Allah", when in reality it's not his name, but means God in Arabic ?
How can a believer follow the creed (shahadah) "no God but Allah...", since praying "no God but God" makes no sense.

Allah is not a mere translation of the word God. Allah is the name of God. We don't say, there is no God but the God. This is wrong. We say, there is no God but Allah.

 

[Neuropteron]

why a new set of spiritual thoughts?
The 'New Testament' is considered this from the Jewish POV.

That is true and they were right. But they should have been prepared for it since the scriptures taught them the coming of the Messiah with the introduction of new spiritual insight.

 

[Neuropteron]

Romans 12:2 has hardly anything to do with deduction, logic and reason.

Where does Matthew 6:7 mention critical thinking?
It depends what translation you're using.
The K.Interlinear states:
"...be transformed to the renewing of your mind...by making your mind over..."
Matthew 26:44 "So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing."

Jesus mentions "vain" or senseless repetition (as required for Muslims" that is not to say that repetitions are forbidden.

 

[Shakeel]

Jesus mentions "vain" or senseless repetition (as required for Muslims" that is not to say that repetitions are forbidden.

What would make the first chapter of the Qur'an vain repetition?

Here's what the chapter says:

1. In the name of Allah, The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful
2. [All] praise is [due] to Allah, Lord of the worlds
3. The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,
4. Sovereign of the Day of Recompense. 5. It is You we worship and You we ask for help.
6. Guide us to the straight path
7. The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.

Can you point out what is vain in that? And why is it more vain than the Lord's prayer as found in the Bible?

 

[Neuropteron]

What would make the first chapter of the Qur'an vain repetition?

Here's what the chapter says:

1. In the name of Allah, The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful
2. [All] praise is [due] to Allah, Lord of the worlds
3. The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,
4. Sovereign of the Day of Recompense. 5. It is You we worship and You we ask for help.
6. Guide us to the straight path
7. The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.

Can you point out what is vain in that? And why is it more vain than the Lord's prayer as found in the Bible?

Hi,
"vain repetition" are Jesus's words not mine.
The text does not state that a particular text of the Qur'an is vain, rather that repeating it mindlessly or anything else is vain and should not be done.

The reasons are clear, it's simply not conducing to rational thought.

The very name Qur'an means "recitation" one synonym for recitation is recapitulation.
In the five pillars of Observation the first Pillar states: "repeat the creed...."

I admit to being confused how anyone can declare that Muslims are not repeating word for word their prayer and their creed, as it is evident not only in their literature but is displayed daily in public .

 

[Shakeel]

"vain repetition" are Jesus's words not mine

But you're claiming to know what it means, so you should be able to tell what it is and what makes something vain repetition.

The text does not state that a particular text of the Qur'an is vain, rather that repeating it mindlessly or anything else

I don't know what the anything else part refers to, but obviously the repetition of the first chapter of the Qur'an is not done mindlessly. We must focus on what we're saying and understand what it means (which isn't as simple as one might think). There is something called khushoo, which means calmness and humility among other things, and is necessary during prayer.

If the worshipper fails to focus his mind and show humility in such a way that it is as if he is pecking his way through the prayer and is too hasty, then his prayer becomes invalid.
Khushoo‘ (proper focus and humility) in prayer - Islam Question & Answer

The very name Qur'an means "recitation" one synonym for recitation is recapitulation.

If I say recitation, I don't mean recapitulation though, I have no idea what your point is. The Qur'an, while it has seeming repetition in it, is not repetitive for no reason. There is great wisdom behind the repetitiveness.

I'll give you an example that I have learned about.

17:31 "And do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and for you. Indeed, their killing is ever a great sin."

6:151 "Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. And do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason."'

There are two reasons people use to, and maybe still, kill their children. One is the fear the child will bring them poverty, and they won't be able to provide for themselves. Another is the fear they won't be able to feed the baby, which is why in the other verse the order is reversed.

I admit to being confused how anyone can declare that Muslims are not repeating word for word their prayer and their creed, as it is evident not only in their literature but is displayed daily in public .

Who said they aren't? For sure they are. The question is why do you think you have the evidence to prove it is wrong? You claim it's from the Bible, but your interpretation of the words vain repetition is not clear. It's a spacious argument to say the least. And of course there is tons of repetition in the Bible, in the Lord's prayer and in general in the prayers of Christians - we know about the prayer books.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Neither has Muhammad or the Quran ever converted 1.7billion people or close to it, but conflating birth rates with conversion rates is a type of dishonesty.
In my opinion

Im only looking at the vast number of people who now accept Christ because of belief in Muhammad and the Quran. They are taught from early childhood to accept Jesus. It’s part of their spiritual education.

 

[Neuropteron]

But you're claiming to know what it means, so you should be able to tell what it is and what makes something vain repetition.
There is great wisdom behind the repetitiveness.
There is tons of repetition in the Bible, in the Lord's prayer and in general in the prayers of Christians - we know about the prayer books.

Hi,

I never said the Qur'an or the wisdom behind the repetitiveness is unwise.

It's the ritualistic repetitiveness that's unwise and a tool of mind control.

Instead, thought, examination even questioning the wisdom should be encouraged.
eg. The Apostle Paul commended the Beroans for examining the scriptures to see whether these things were true.

The bible also has wisdom, nonetheless Jesus discourages constant repetition,

instead the bible encourage "reflection" by meditation [not the new age meditation of emptying ones mind], this type of meditation involves examining a subject from all angles.

This enables rational thinking and discussion from the heart instead of just repeating phrases mindlessly learned by rote.

It's true there are repetitions in the bible, the reason is that repetitions is not condemned.
Rather it's a certain type of repetition that is discouraged.
A repetition should be a reminder, not have the objective to influence the subconscious by inculcating creeds through constant repetitive exposure.
It should appeal to the cerebral cortex where the seat of reason and conscious thoughts are.
To understand this concept discernment is required. Discernment is not a skill learned by rote.
We should keep in mind that the discussion is about repetitiveness that is required from the people for the purpose of indoctrination.

Repetition for the purpose of being able to learn a sura, a bible text or a song is a different matter altogether since these repetition serve a specific purpose and are not part of a religious formula.

The Lord's prayer is only a template or an example, Jesus specifically asked his disciples "NOT" to repeat it.

The prayer books you mention are not in the bible. They are a written by the same people who burned the bibles in the dark ages.
The bible encourages prayer from the heart not pre-written prayers or prayers from rote. .
Should you want an example of the reason for my understanding of the negative, and controlling effect of excessive repetition I have listed 2 quotes.

Quote: "Repeated exposure to a brand (or concept) can create a liking for it, even when presented without any factual information..." Robert Zajonc (eminent psychologist)

Quote: "...people experience a "glow of warmth when in the presence of familiar things (or thoughts)..." Edward B. Titchener(author of "textbook of psychology")

and 2 sites:
"Repetition increases the likelihood that a statement will be accepted as true." This illusory truth effect is well-established;
Ethics and Psychology: Repetition increases perceived truth equally for plausible and implausible statements

"Does repetition breed belief? Yes! It's one of the fundamentals of propaganda and brainwashing.
When people hear the same indefensible, even ridiculous message sent over and over again by a source of authority... (they... believe it).)
Does repetition breed belief? - Quora

Note: I am not under the illusion that my opinions are better than yours, should they be proven wrong I am ready to change them.

 

[danieldemol]

Im only looking at the vast number of people who now accept Christ because of belief in Muhammad and the Quran. They are taught from early childhood to accept Jesus. It’s part of their spiritual education.

It is a different dogmatic Jesus that they are taught to believe in. Not the dogmatic Jesus of the Gospels nor the historical Jesus.

 

[Shakeel]

It is a different dogmatic Jesus that they are taught to believe in. Not the dogmatic Jesus of the Gospels nor the historical Jesus.

There are a lot of similarities between the Jesus (peace be upon him) of the Bible and Jesus (peace be upon him) as described in the Qur'an and the only contradiction I know of is in the issue of his death in the Bible - which would not be an issue of a different Jesus, but of a different story about Jesus.

 

[danieldemol]

There are a lot of similarities between the Jesus (peace be upon him) of the Bible and Jesus (peace be upon him) as described in the Qur'an and the only contradiction I know of is in the issue of his death in the Bible - which would not be an issue of a different Jesus, but of a different story about Jesus.

I think there are other differences, for example if I recall Jesus in the Quran is born under a date palm tree in a remote place as opposed to a manger.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sure, Quran is inspired, but what inspired it can be debated.

Exactly, there is no evidence that either the Bible or the Quran are the word of God, it is just what people believe.

Or even that a God exists. Peoples' choice of belief.

And why is it more vain than the Lord's prayer as found in the Bible?

Yes, it is no more vain than the Lord's prayer as found in the Bible.

I admit to being confused how anyone can declare that Muslims are not repeating word for word their prayer and their creed, as it is evident not only in their literature but is displayed daily in public.

Christians also have their beads, in spite of whatever Jesus might have said.
Prayer beads - Wikipedia

The fact that they are not part of history does not mean that they never happened. It just is not proven.

Yeah, the great ocean-churning by Gods and demons in Hinduism and drinking of the great poison by Shiva is not history, but it does not mean it never happened. It is just not proven.