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Is The Quran Superior?

Tomef

Well-Known Member
I know, what you are not realizing is that Quran was preserved on mass, everyone had copies and knew it at the end of Mohammad (s) life. What Uthman did was get rid of commentaries and hadiths in the name of getting one version of the Quran in terms of letters. It was a lie that didn't make sense and still does not make sense.
I’m not completely sure what you mean. What I’m talking about are the variations in what was written down at different times, as with this old manuscript, for example, one of the oldest discovered:

The Sana'a manuscript, is one of the oldest Quranic manuscripts in existence. It contains only three chapters. It was found, along with many other Quranic and non-Quranic fragments, in Yemen in 1972 during restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a. The manuscript is written on parchment, and comprises two layers of text (see palimpsest). The upper text conforms to the standard 'Uthmanic Quran, whereas the lower text contains many variants to the standard text. An edition of the lower text was published in 2012.[27] A radiocarbon analysis has dated the parchment containing the lower text to before 671 AD with 99% probability.[28]

The Yemeni authorities took exception to the academics involved pointing out the different variations in the text, and banned some of them from accessing it. That kind of thing makes it hard to take claims based in dogma rather than arguments from evidence seriously.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Muslims think the Quran hasn’t lost its purity from translations like the Torah and the Gospel and therefore is superior and is the infallible and uncorrupted word of God…

Your information is incorrect.

…but wasn’t it written by men? So to say it’s the literal word of a God is out of touch I think.

The difference is that it was supposed to be dictated by God. Not just inspired like the Bible.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Well, that can’t be…

“No one has seen God at any time.”
— John 1:18.

Either the Bible contradicts itself, or many misinterpret what it’s saying.
Or interpret it correctly.

  • I and the Father are one: (John 10:30)
  • Before Abraham was, I am
  • If you've seen me, you've seen the Father
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I and the Father are one: (John 10:30)
So, Jesus is the Father?

Then who did Jesus pray to? Himself?

Who did Jesus worship? Himself?

Are you taking this out of context, maybe?

John 17:20-22…
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one

Many times, to get the proper understanding of what a scripture is saying, we have to use other scriptures. It’s best not to take things out of context. You’ll lose the meaning.

I hope you can see where you took this out of context.

Best wishes.

(I’ll address John 8:58 at a later date.)
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
So, Jesus is the Father?

Then who did Jesus pray to? Himself?

Who did Jesus worship? Himself?

Are you taking this out of context, maybe?

John 17:20-22…
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one

Many times, to get the proper understanding of what a scripture is saying, we have to use other scriptures. It’s best not to take things out of context. You’ll lose the meaning.

I hope you can see where you took this out of context.

Best wishes.

(I’ll address John 8:58 at a later date.)
lol. He prayed to god. Jesus is god in the flesh.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That's like saying the fact that 1+1=2 is for God to judge. God gave us brains.
Ok I’ll try and explain a bit so hopefully you can see my beliefs are based on using my brains not just blind belief.

One of the most important teachings of Baha’u’llah is He abolished priesthood and clergy and replaced it with ‘the independent investigation of truth’. To ‘see with our own eyes, think with our own mind and not blindly follow others’. So using our brains is a basic teaching of the Baha’i Faith.

So I Investigated independently all religions over years and have found that their scriptures all teach truth and compliment one another spiritually such as in virtues, good character etc. only the social laws differ for the society the religion appeared in. So I accept Krishna and the Gita, Buddha and His scriptures, Moses and the Torah, Christ and the Gospels, Zoroaster and the Gathas, Muhammad and the Quran, the Bab and the Bayan and most recently for this age Baha’u’llah Who is uniting the world. Each subsequent Prophet or Messenger corrects the misunderstandings of the people from the previous religion and provides new laws and teachings for His age.

I discovered what is most urgent for our age is the reconciliation of our differences and peace between the different nations, races and religions and that Baha’u’llah‘s teachings focus on the oneness of humanity, oneness of races and oneness of religions and a way to reconcile all their conflicting differences by correcting the misinterpretations which are the cause of division. So I see this as a solution that will help us remove our racial, national and religious prejudices by accepting all people unconditionally as part of one human family. I cannot see a better solution than this.
 

Pawpatrol

Active Member
Ok I’ll try and explain a bit so hopefully you can see my beliefs are based on using my brains not just blind belief.

One of the most important teachings of Baha’u’llah is He abolished priesthood and clergy and replaced it with ‘the independent investigation of truth’. To ‘see with our own eyes, think with our own mind and not blindly follow others’. So using our brains is a basic teaching of the Baha’i Faith.

So I Investigated independently all religions over years and have found that their scriptures all teach truth and compliment one another spiritually such as in virtues, good character etc. only the social laws differ for the society the religion appeared in. So I accept Krishna and the Gita, Buddha and His scriptures, Moses and the Torah, Christ and the Gospels, Zoroaster and the Gathas, Muhammad and the Quran, the Bab and the Bayan and most recently for this age Baha’u’llah Who is uniting the world. Each subsequent Prophet or Messenger corrects the misunderstandings of the people from the previous religion and provides new laws and teachings for His age.

I discovered what is most urgent for our age is the reconciliation of our differences and peace between the different nations, races and religions and that Baha’u’llah‘s teachings focus on the oneness of humanity, oneness of races and oneness of religions and a way to reconcile all their conflicting differences by correcting the misinterpretations which are the cause of division. So I see this as a solution that will help us remove our racial, national and religious prejudices by accepting all people unconditionally as part of one human family. I cannot see a better solution than this.
If you believed in Quran and Muhammad (saws) then you would not believe in the gospels or the Buddha or Baha'u'lla. Your religion is based on twisting all religious texts into something they're not, and then claiming to be sincere investigators - which only brings to mind Satan. Yours is a religion that requires probably the most mental gymnastics of all religions.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If you believed in Quran and Muhammad (saws) then you would not believe in the gospels or the Buddha or Baha'u'lla. Your religion is based on twisting all religious texts into something they're not, and then claiming to be sincere investigators - which only brings to mind Satan. Yours is a religion that requires probably the most mental gymnastics of all religions.
On the contrary. All religions await a Promised One and we believe Baha’u’llah is that One.
 
What I have quoted is established historical record. What in the BBC article do you disagree with? It’s the same account I’ve read in various academic books,

It’s true there are variant Qurans and that it is highly dubious to consider the text we have today as being both perfectly preserved and a complete text as opposed to a partial record (potentially with multiple redactors).

The Uthman story is not uniformly accepted among critical scholars though.

Almost nothing from early Islam is established historical record due to the paucity of evidence.

The only sources we have for the 7th c are the Quran and Hadith and sirah-maghazi literature written down centuries after the fact. It’s more akin to the New Testament apocrypha in timing than the gospels. There are also a handful of non Muslim fragments that add insights (but often contradict the Islamic narrative).

Much of the sirah is obvious nonsense, and much of the plausible stuff seem to be exegetical rather than historical.

Early exegetes clearly don’t understand parts of the Quran, and seem to have invented narratives to fix the meaning.

The problem is it seems strange to accept that early “Muslims” (a descriptor that seems to be a later adoption) recorded the most minute details of Muhammad’s life yet also forgot to record how he interpreted a fair amount of the Quran.

Many popular and even scholarly texts will take things like the Quran’s timeline, occasions of revelation and historical context directly from Islamic theology.

Many critical scholars do accept the Uthmanic standardisation, but some put the process later and even have redactions continuing into the 8th c. Others suggest it might be earlier.

This may be of interest:


Also on the unreliability of the Islamic tradition and evidence for the late standardisation of the sirah:

According to various Muslim sources Muhammad "was born in the Year of the Elephant, or fifty days after the attack of the troops of the Elephant, or thirty years after the Year of the Elephant, or forty years after the Year of the Elephant Many traditions are recorded in Ibn N~ al-Din's Jami' al-iithiu, fols. 179b-180b:the Prophet was born in the Year of the Elephant, he received the Revelation forty years after the Elephant (The fight at - K.) 'Ukaz took place fifteen years after the Elephant and the Ka'ba was built twenty-five years after the Elephant; the Prophet was born thirty days after the Elephant, or fifty days, or fifty-five days, or two months and six days, or ten years; some say twenty years, some say twenty-three years, some say thirty years, some say that God sent the Prophet with his mission fifteen years after the Ka'ba was built, and thus there were seventy years between the Elephant and the mission (mab'aJh) of the Prophet; some say that he was born fifteen years before the Elephant, some say forty days or fifty days, some say thirty years before the Elephant, and finally, some say that there were ten years between the expedition of the Elephant and the mission"

:D
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
lol. There’s god and there’s god in the flesh, so no he* didn’t pray to himself.
*it is meaningless to figure that (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah prayed to himself fervently in the garden of gethsemane , he prayed to One G-d for sure, right, please?
(Jesus)Yeshua- never claimed to be "god in the flesh" obviously he had bones also, and without bones it would be just a lump, without a regular/definite shape, please, right?

Regards
 
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Pawpatrol

Active Member
Also on the unreliability of the Islamic tradition and evidence for the late standardisation of the sirah:

According to various Muslim sources Muhammad "was born in the Year of the Elephant, or fifty days after the attack of the troops of the Elephant, or thirty years after the Year of the Elephant, or forty years after the Year of the Elephant Many traditions are recorded in Ibn N~ al-Din's Jami' al-iithiu, fols. 179b-180b:the Prophet was born in the Year of the Elephant, he received the Revelation forty years after the Elephant (The fight at - K.) 'Ukaz took place fifteen years after the Elephant and the Ka'ba was built twenty-five years after the Elephant; the Prophet was born thirty days after the Elephant, or fifty days, or fifty-five days, or two months and six days, or ten years; some say twenty years, some say twenty-three years, some say thirty years, some say that God sent the Prophet with his mission fifteen years after the Ka'ba was built, and thus there were seventy years between the Elephant and the mission (mab'aJh) of the Prophet; some say that he was born fifteen years before the Elephant, some say forty days or fifty days, some say thirty years before the Elephant, and finally, some say that there were ten years between the expedition of the Elephant and the mission"
The fact that many people have said different things about a date, doesn't mean the date can't be known.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
It’s true there are variant Qurans and that it is highly dubious to consider the text we have today as being both perfectly preserved and a complete text as opposed to a partial record (potentially with multiple redactors).

The Uthman story is not uniformly accepted among critical scholars though.

Almost nothing from early Islam is established historical record due to the paucity of evidence.

The only sources we have for the 7th c are the Quran and Hadith and sirah-maghazi literature written down centuries after the fact. It’s more akin to the New Testament apocrypha in timing than the gospels. There are also a handful of non Muslim fragments that add insights (but often contradict the Islamic narrative).

Much of the sirah is obvious nonsense, and much of the plausible stuff seem to be exegetical rather than historical.

Early exegetes clearly don’t understand parts of the Quran, and seem to have invented narratives to fix the meaning.

The problem is it seems strange to accept that early “Muslims” (a descriptor that seems to be a later adoption) recorded the most minute details of Muhammad’s life yet also forgot to record how he interpreted a fair amount of the Quran.

Many popular and even scholarly texts will take things like the Quran’s timeline, occasions of revelation and historical context directly from Islamic theology.

Many critical scholars do accept the Uthmanic standardisation, but some put the process later and even have redactions continuing into the 8th c. Others suggest it might be earlier.

This may be of interest:


Also on the unreliability of the Islamic tradition and evidence for the late standardisation of the sirah:

According to various Muslim sources Muhammad "was born in the Year of the Elephant, or fifty days after the attack of the troops of the Elephant, or thirty years after the Year of the Elephant, or forty years after the Year of the Elephant Many traditions are recorded in Ibn N~ al-Din's Jami' al-iithiu, fols. 179b-180b:the Prophet was born in the Year of the Elephant, he received the Revelation forty years after the Elephant (The fight at - K.) 'Ukaz took place fifteen years after the Elephant and the Ka'ba was built twenty-five years after the Elephant; the Prophet was born thirty days after the Elephant, or fifty days, or fifty-five days, or two months and six days, or ten years; some say twenty years, some say twenty-three years, some say thirty years, some say that God sent the Prophet with his mission fifteen years after the Ka'ba was built, and thus there were seventy years between the Elephant and the mission (mab'aJh) of the Prophet; some say that he was born fifteen years before the Elephant, some say forty days or fifty days, some say thirty years before the Elephant, and finally, some say that there were ten years between the expedition of the Elephant and the mission"

:D
It seems that the elephant was very important.
 
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