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Is the UN preparing to attack Religion?

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I see the problem here. Given the track record of organized religion, including in human rights violations, I'm not sure what the justification for making it immune to criticism is supposed to be. "Defamation of religion"? Seriously? :facepalm: And it certainly takes some really grotesque reasoning to construe the UN's (long overdue) reprimand of the Vatican for its complicity in child molestation seem like a bad thing.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Chastising a signatory of a contract for failing to abide by the contract is one thing; Attempting to dictate to a church what their doctrines should be is something else. Where is the UN’s authority to do that? Yet they did it anyway.
What makes you think that the UN doesn't have the authority to comment on the Vatican's actions?

The Catholic Church isn't just a church; it's also an active NGO and a strong lobbying force in virtually every country on Earth. The UN charter establishes that the purposes of the UN include:

3. To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion;

https://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml

It's entirely appropriate for the UN to speak out on matters of human rights, even if they step on the Vatican's toes in the process.

If, as the UN says, religions and belief systems are not protected by human rights - and I agree, they clearly are not – what prevents them from taking the next step: deciding that religions and belief systems are nothing more than ancient superstitions that are doing more harm than good, and that it’s time to ban them?

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, for one:

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
 
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lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I think any move to ban religion would be contrary to what the line they are currently treading. This doesn't appear to be anything like a concerted anti-religious movement by the UN, based on my (admittedly limited) reading.

Instead, what they are saying is that their charters are about protecting the rights of individuals. The right to practice a religion freely would be something they would protect, I believe, but where that practice impacts on another individual, it seems they are going to side with the other individual.

Where in this is a pointer to a banning of religion?
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In the years since then, any proposal in the UN attempting to ban ‘defamation of religion’ has been shot down. Freedom of speech has trumped freedom of religion.

How was freedom of religion trumped by that?

what prevents them from taking the next step: deciding that religions and belief systems are nothing more than ancient superstitions that are doing more harm than good, and that it’s time to ban them?

The fact that they're not stupid?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
The UNHRC declared that "Prohibitions of displays of lack of respect for a religion or other belief system, including blasphemy laws, are incompatible with” the charter of the Human Rights Committee...
Actually, they declared,
"Prohibitions of displays of lack of respect for a religion or other belief system, including blasphemy laws, are incompatible with the Covenant, except in the specific circumstances envisaged in article 20, paragraph 2, of the Covenant. Such prohibitions must also comply with the strict requirements of article 19, paragraph 3, as well as such articles as 2, 5, 17, 18 and 26. Thus, for instance, it would be impermissible for any such laws to discriminate in favor of or against one or certain religions or belief systems, or their adherents over another, or religious believers over non-believers. Nor would it be permissible for such prohibitions to be used to prevent or punish criticism of religious leaders or commentary on religious doctrine and tenets of faith."

Trust me, nothing so far rises above the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

In the years since then, any proposal in the UN attempting to ban ‘defamation of religion’ has been shot down. Freedom of speech has trumped freedom of religion.
It's not their job to police the world.

Now, here’s where it gets really interesting: The UN went further. They also condemned the Church’s doctrines regarding homosexuality, abortion, and ‘reproductive rights.’

Chastising a signatory of a contract for failing to abide by the contract is one thing; Attempting to dictate to a church what their doctrines should be is something else. Where is the UN’s authority to do that?
The Secretariat General of the United Nations.

If, as the UN says, religions and belief systems are not protected by human rights - and I agree, they clearly are not – what prevents them from taking the next step: deciding that religions and belief systems are nothing more than ancient superstitions that are doing more harm than good, and that it’s time to ban them?
Again, the answer is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 18.

It’s too bad the UN doesn’t have any teeth. Do they? We'll Investigate that next."
Actually, it's a pretty damn good thing, else we would all be subject to the abuses of any one charter nation.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
That article is a pile of crap. No belief system - religious, political or otherwise - should be exempted from criticism or be handled with servile kid gloves. Your rights end when they infringe on the freedoms of others. If a religious group is committing crimes, then they need to be exposed and never allowed to get away with it.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Interesting article from the Examiner (I copied the article but the link is below):

"If you had to choose between Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech, which would you choose?

Now, you’re thinking, ‘I don’t have to choose, I already have both.’ Are you sure?

Last August, the central district court of Tver – the oblast or ‘state’ in which Moscow resides, banned a religious website, jw.org. They did this secretly, not notifying the owners of the website until the day before the ban was to go into effect – January 22, 2014. Had they prevailed, their rationale would have been to claim, as they have in the past, that the ‘free speech’ on jw.org defames other religions. Jw.org won that battle in the court of appeals, but the foundation on which the attack was based still exists.

In 1999, Pakistan brought a resolution to the UN calling for a ban on “Defamation of Islam.” Cooler heads prevailed and, after much discussion, the Commission on Human Rights passed instead a resolution banning “Defamation of Religion.”

Over the years from 2000 to 2009 the resolution was added to, revised, strengthened, and re-worded, but it was consistently approved. Aside from the lack of elections, U.N. politicians are no different from any other type. It would have been politically incorrect to be seen as anti-Muslim, especially after 9/11, so passing a bill to protect them from defamation seemed like a good idea. Typical was the vote of the UN General Assembly in December, 2007: 108 for, 51 against, and 25 abstaining.

In 2009, however, Pakistan pushed again. Their resolution that year stated that they were concerned that defamation of religion led to “the creation of a kind of Islamophobia in which Muslims were typecast as terrorists." They weren't opposed to freedom of expression, oh no. They merely wanted to ban "expression that led to incitement.”

They said the hatred of Muslims was just like the hatred of Jews that Hitler had whipped up in pre-WWII Germany, and look what that led to. Has there been a Muslim “krystallnacht” that I didn’t hear about...the night of August 9, 1938 when Germans destroyed over 7,000 Jewish businesses and over 1,000 synagogues? Even in the days after 9/11 when there was enormous outrage against Muslims, the level of hatred never approached that.

Pakistan’s proposed resolution said basically that freedom of speech sometimes has to yield in order to maintain peace. Governments such as Russia, Pakistan, and most of the middle east are quick to use this argument: some opinion or expression of yours is causing distress to others; therefore, instead of telling the ‘others’ to grow up and get over it, they tell you to stop expressing your opinion.

In any case, this was a step too far, and the pendulum began to swing back. Pakistan’s argument was recognized for what it was, and over 200 civic groups, some Muslim, some Christian, some atheist, demanded that the UN push back.

Over the preceding 10 years, the UN had assigned a “special rapporteur” to analyze the subject of defamation of religion and report back. The rapporteur’s report in 2009 included this telling statement:

“[We] encourage a shift away from the sociological concept of the defamation of religions towards the legal norm of non-incitement to national, racial or religious hatred."
Three months later when the United States and Egypt introduced a resolution which condemned "racial and religious stereotyping," EU representative Jean-Baptiste Mattei said the European Union "rejected and would continue to reject the concept of defamation of religions." Significantly, he said:

"Human rights laws did not and should not protect belief systems."
And the representative from Chile pointed out that,

"The concept of the defamation of religion took them in an area that could lead to the actual prohibition of opinions."
A month later, at a human rights meeting in Geneva, the United States representative admitted that defamation of religion is “a fundamentally flawed concept.” The rep from Sweden repeated what the Frenchman had said earlier: international human rights law protects individuals, not institutions or religions.

By 2011 the backlash was complete. The UNHRC declared that "Prohibitions of displays of lack of respect for a religion or other belief system, including blasphemy laws, are incompatible with” the charter of the Human Rights Committee.

In the years since then, any proposal in the UN attempting to ban ‘defamation of religion’ has been shot down. Freedom of speech has trumped freedom of religion.

Last week, far from worrying about ‘defamation,’ the UN came out loudly and publicly chastising the Vatican.

This has never happened before.
Their purported justification for doing so went like this: The Vatican is a signatory of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, article 34 of which reads in part:

“Parties undertake to protect the child from all forms of sexual exploitation and sexual abuse.”
The UN accused the Vatican not merely of failing to protect children, but of actively endangering children by their policy of moving pederasts to new parishes where they could continue their predations, and of obfuscating all attempts by law enforcement agencies to find and prosecute the offenders.


Now, here’s where it gets really interesting: The UN went further. They also condemned the Church’s doctrines regarding homosexuality, abortion, and ‘reproductive rights.’

Chastising a signatory of a contract for failing to abide by the contract is one thing; Attempting to dictate to a church what their doctrines should be is something else. Where is the UN’s authority to do that? Yet they did it anyway.

If, as the UN says, religions and belief systems are not protected by human rights - and I agree, they clearly are not – what prevents them from taking the next step: deciding that religions and belief systems are nothing more than ancient superstitions that are doing more harm than good, and that it’s time to ban them?

It’s too bad the UN doesn’t have any teeth. Do they? We'll Investigate that next."

Is the UN preparing to attack Religion? - Phoenix Signs of the Times | Examiner.com


I agree with the direction they are taking.


Human rights (which may include the individual's religious rights) - over the rights of religions - which sometime repress human rights, - especially against women.


Religions should not be able to dictate their religious law over others = Gay rights, abortion rights, reproduction rights, and stopping misuse, for instance, of Sharia Law, against women around the world.



*
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
I agree with the direction they are taking.


Human rights (which may include the individual's religious rights) - over the rights of religions - which sometime repress human rights, - especially against women.


Religions should not be able to dictate their religious law over others = Gay rights, abortion rights, reproduction rights, and stopping misuse, for instance, of Sharia Law, against women around the world.



*

Agree, human rights trump any religious beliefs or ideology. Religious beliefs and practices are important but lower on the list of priority. The ones which threaten or jeopardize human rights should receive endless criticism from without and within.
 

SkylarHunter

Active Member
I agree with the direction they are taking.


Human rights (which may include the individual's religious rights) - over the rights of religions - which sometime repress human rights, - especially against women.


Religions should not be able to dictate their religious law over others = Gay rights, abortion rights, reproduction rights, and stopping misuse, for instance, of Sharia Law, against women around the world.



*

I agree. Human rights should come first and the atrocities being committed in this world should be stopped, specially against women and children.

Above all, people should be given the right to chose their religion (if they want to have one) and how they want to live their lives as long as they respect each other. If someone decides to go against God's wishes then it's between them and God, no other human should have the right to interfere.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
But isn't the primary purpose of the UN to attack religion?

according to bible prophecy, it is a ruler who misleads all the nations....and then yes, it will bare its teeth and destroy religion.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I agree. Human rights should come first and the atrocities being committed in this world should be stopped, specially against women and children.

Above all, people should be given the right to chose their religion (if they want to have one) and how they want to live their lives as long as they respect each other. If someone decides to go against God's wishes then it's between them and God, no other human should have the right to interfere.

Yes this is so right, but there are so many stupid people who cannot see it.:(
 

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
'Freedom of Speech' and 'Freedom of Religion' is just a myth anyway.

I cannot choose one, because neither exist, really. We are only led into a false sense of security believing we have any 'human rights' whatsoever.

So, it comes as no surprise that the UN is 'supposedly' removing even more of them, to placate minority groups....again.

I had a discussion with my friend the other day, that George Orwell was 30 years too soon with his 'Big Brother' hypothesis.

At any given time, the 'spooks' know what you are doing...when you eat, what you eat, when you sleep, when you masturbate, when you use the lavatory...

Marketing companies trace your internet usage to send targeted advertisment packages to you...they know what you like, your preferences, where you eat, what movies you watch, what religion you are...

Nothing is safe and nothing is sacred anymore...nothing!

Phone lines are constantly being monitored and tapped to highlight the words 'bomb' or 'terrorist'...

I noticed the police choppers circling around my house the other day...

So, there isn't any 'freedom' anymore. None whatsoever, so the whole argument and decision is moot.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
according to bible prophecy, it is a ruler who misleads all the nations....and then yes, it will bare its teeth and destroy religion.

I wonder how many people actually take such an odd reading of those parts of the Bible. Far too many, obviously, but how many?
 

Simurgh

Atheist Triple Goddess
Getting back to the OP and detouring from biblical prophecies that never mean anything until they can be twisted around to be viewed through retrospective lenses to have some vague application to some forgettable event.


Regarding the attempt by the UN to hold the Vatican accountable concerning the well-documented instances of pedophilia has nothing to do with persecution of religion. That is just absurd. The tens of thousands of lives destroyed by a religious organization that did nothing but move priests from one community to another so that they could continue to rape children everywhere they were sent speaks to the priorities of the old men in charge.

And now they are getting upset about being called to account for their silence, their inactivity, their dishonesty, and their disregard for those who trusted them because they represented the will of the divine? Nobody is attacking religion, the UN is merely pointing out that the hypocrites need to examine their so-called moral and ethical obligations and act accordingly.

Ought the Vatican not be held accountable for its role in the perpetuation of these crimes against its own followers? What gives those old men the right to rant and rage against homosexuality, contraception, abortion, sex outside of matrimony and yet say nothing about its own representatives’ crimes against children? If the Catholic Church insists on holding the laity to its standards concerning sexual mores, then it better start with its priests first and not try to deflect from the guilt they clearly own in this regard.

…but I guess that would mess with the deeply ingrained pedophilic climate…
 
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