Is the universe infinite or finite?

[firedragon]

Detectable by science means those aspects of the universe that humans have the technology to detect. Think Hubble, Optical and Radio Telescopes, etc..

Ah. The observable universe. I understand.

He said " And, as we think we know that there are things that are not possible within the laws of physics, the universe does have limits and cannot be said to be infinite - in that sense."

He was only making a deduction.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

See it this way if you wish: if the universe is physical, it will not be limitless, but governed and limited by laws of physics. In that sense at least, it will not be infinite.

However, there is no reason to assume that the universe is all there is, nor that potential non-physicals be governed by laws of physics.


Humbly
Hermit

Got it, thank you.

 

[KWED]

Sure, there were a lot of oddball religions and cults around in ancient times (there still are), so God had to send Jesus to tell them to cut the krap..

And then when that failed, he had to send Muhammad to sort out Jesus' mess. Now the Bahai claim that someone has been sent to sort put Muhammad's mess (I'm paraphrasing). And so it goes...

 

[`mud]

There are uncountable eternities inside the known infinity of the Cosmos,

I have to wonder, what lies beyond .... ? the pearly gates ?

I'm still happy with Life and it's Stuff.

 

[firedragon]

There are uncountable eternities inside the known infinity of the Cosmos,

What do you mean by the "known infinity" phrase?

 

[`mud]

I opened with `eternities`...yes ?

How far is the next `eternity` ?

How far can we `see`, Hubble wise of course,

What is the nearest part, of the `infinity`; be seen ?

What is the `known infinity`,

knowledge of the absence of `evidence` beyond infinity

It's all in the gnosis of reality.

How many `eternities` are out there >.......in infinity

Those `eternities` mentioned in all the books....
NuffStuff

 

[gnostic]

Wait a minute, I regularly say there are plenty of oddball "christian" cults around (including big organised ones) and point out that they can't get under JC's radar..
Jesus said-"Not all who call me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)

First of all, you didn’t say “Christian” ones.

Sure, there were a lot of oddball religions and cults around in ancient times (there still are), so God had to send Jesus to tell them to cut the krap..

You only said “a lot of oddball religions and cults around in ancient times”, so you weren’t specific, but I would guess, you could include all the Christian sects that developed after Jesus.

HOWEVER, you wrote in the last part “so God had to send Jesus to tell them to cut the krap.”.

This part indicated Jesus was sent to fix (“cut the krap”) ONLY THE PAST religions and cults.

So basically your original post would only include those religions and cults being oddball BEFORE Jesus, but your current post include religions and cults both BEFORE and AFTER Jesus.

You are sending mixed messages in your two posts.

Lastly, in my own post, I did not state any churches or sects of Christianity. Instead my examples were about the New Testament books that narrated Jesus’ miracles (hence the 4 gospels) and the book of Revelation being oddball.

 

[Dropship]

..You only said “a lot of oddball religions and cults around in ancient times”, so you weren’t specific, but I would guess, you could include all the Christian sects that developed after Jesus..

Yes, sorry to be vague, but I don't think RF would allow me to name specific groups in case it upsets people, otherwise I'd be happy to tear them to shreds like I do in other forums..

 

[`mud]

Some people like to not mention Christianity, don't they ?

 

[`mud]

What happened to the O.P. ??

 

[gnostic]

Yes, sorry to be vague, but I don't think RF would allow me to name specific groups in case it upsets people, otherwise I'd be happy to tear them to shreds like I do in other forums..

Be that it may.

The churches that EXST AFTER Jesus' time, then God couldn't send Jesus "cut the krap" off churches that didn't exist after Jesus.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Absolute nothing does not exist, never has, never will, therefore the universe is infinite..

 

[ratiocinator]

Absolute nothing does not exist, never has, never will, therefore the universe is infinite.

I agree about absolute nothing but it doesn't follow that the universe must therefore be infinite.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I agree about absolute nothing but it doesn't follow that the universe must therefore be infinite.

So if absolute nothing does not exist, all existence must contain something. That something must be infinite in expanse for if it were not, then the only thing that is not something that could be the container of a finite expanse of something is absolute nothing, and we agree that absolute nothing does not exist.

 

[ratiocinator]

That something must be infinite in expanse for if it were not, then the only thing that is not something that could be the container of a finite expanse of something is absolute nothing, and we agree that absolute nothing does not exit.

You seem to be stuck in a Newtonian view of space. There is no need for a container. Absolute nothing cannot exist anywhere or at any time because space and time are not nothing. It doesn't follow that space-time is infinite. We know (from relativity) that space and time are not a Newtonian absolute background but form a single manifold that can (potentially) be finite.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You seem to be stuck in a Newtonian view of space. There is no need for a container. Absolute nothing cannot exist anywhere or at any time because space and time are not nothing. It doesn't follow that space-time is infinite. We know (from relativity) that space and time are not a Newtonian absolute background but form a single manifold that can (potentially) be finite.

What do you call time exactly, what is it and how would you detect it? And also how would you measure it?

 

[ratiocinator]

What do you call time exactly, what is it and how would you detect it? And also how would you measure it?

It's a (observer dependant) direction through space-time and you measure it with a 'clock' of some kind.

Spacetime.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It's a (observer dependant) direction through space-time and you measure it with a 'clock' of some kind.

Spacetime.

I asked about time, not space time. I have a reasonable understanding of space, but time not so much, that is why I am asking you to explain what time is, how do you detect it, and now since you say time is measured with a clock, where is the time entity in relation to the clock when it is measured?

 

[ratiocinator]

I asked about time, not space time.

The evidence for relativity tells us that you can't really consider them separately.

I have a reasonable understanding of space, but time not so much, that is why I am asking you to explain what time is, how do you detect it, and now since you say time is measured with a clock, where is the time entity in relation to the clock when it is measured?

Not quite sure what you're expecting as an answer. Space-time is modelled mathematically (as a pseudo- or semi-Riemannian manifold), which is the best description of what it is that we can give. This goes for everything else at the fundamental level; we have a model that describes it and its characteristics, and that's the best description available.

You say you have an understanding of space, so you'll realise it has characteristics, like the number of dimensions and its geometry (pretty much Euclidean in our environment). We can extend this to cover time too.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The evidence for relativity tells us that you can't really consider them separately.

Not quite sure what you're expecting as an answer. Space-time is modelled mathematically (as a pseudo- or semi-Riemannian manifold), which is the best description of what it is that we can give. This goes for everything else at the fundamental level; we have a model that describes it and its characteristics, and that's the best description available.

You say you have an understanding of space, so you'll realise it has characteristics, like the number of dimensions and its geometry (pretty much Euclidean in our environment). We can extend this to cover time too.

Thank you, I understand space time is a mathematical model, but what I am expecting as an answer is how is time detected in order for it to be measured by a clock?