Is the Universe perfect or imperfect?

[George-ananda]

Seems perfectly sensible to me. Death is not accompanied by so much physical pain, or physical pain is more tolerable, gratuitous suffering like genetic disorders and mass murders are absent.

No problem here.

So you're allowing old age, sickness and death within your 'perfect' universe. No genetic disorders you say. Does cancer exist? Is there a list of allowable/unallowable diseases in this 'perfect' universe? I noticed your comment below to something in my previous post was 'silly'. Hmmm.

Silly. I understand the point you're trying to make, what I'm trying to get you to understand is that it is not an adequate solution to the PoE. It doesn't matter what the rest of the puzzle looks like, or whether the rest of the puzzle somehow redeems the presence of evil in our tiny corner of it- if one postulates an ALL good and ALL powerful creator, then the existence of ANY suffering or evil constitutes a defect, regardless of what good is achieved in the end.

As I said before, a truly ALL powerful god can make an omelet without breaking any eggs.

Well you're either not getting, or don't want to get my point. I likened creation to a great cosmic play play/drama of the Lord. There must in the small parts be some temporary good/evil, pain/joy, success/failure, suffering/pleasure....etc. You're not dealing with the typical western argument against the PoE here.

Plus, eastern thinking posits a reason of cause/effect stretching back eons (karma), that explains pain/joy, suffering/pleasure, disease/health...etc. In your western thinking you're looking at these things as random events that happen to people's one and only physical life.

Your arguments perhaps make sense in a western context. In an eastern context the Problem of Evil arguments don't apply or make sense.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

So you're allowing old age, sickness and death within your 'perfect' universe. No genetic disorders you say. Does cancer exist? Is there a list of allowable/unallowable diseases in this 'perfect' universe? I noticed your comment below to something in my previous post was 'silly'. Hmmm.




Well you're either not getting, or don't want to get my point. I likened creation to a great cosmic play play/drama of the Lord. There must in the small parts be some temporary good/evil, pain/joy, success/failure, suffering/pleasure....etc. You're not dealing with the typical western argument against the PoE here.

Plus, eastern thinking posits a reason of cause/effect stretching back eons (karma), that explains pain/joy, suffering/pleasure, disease/health...etc. In your western thinking you're looking at these things as random events that happen to people's one and only physical life.

Your arguments perhaps make sense in a western context. In an eastern context the Problem of Evil arguments don't apply or make sense.

Is death and old age really a bad thing? Especially since not everyone ages the same, short of disease those who are old can still enjoy life.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

So you're allowing old age, sickness and death within your 'perfect' universe. No genetic disorders you say. Does cancer exist? Is there a list of allowable/unallowable diseases in this 'perfect' universe?

Are you intentionally being dense, or playing coy, or what? The point is that the both of us can imagine a universe with less, or no, gratuitous suffering, thus it is clearly logically possible for a universe to exist with less suffering than there is in the real universe. And such a universe would be morally preferable to the present one. That is the salient point here.

I noticed your comment below to something in my previous post was 'silly'. Hmmm.

I'm proud of you. Unfortunately, your response is no less silly.

Well you're either not getting, or don't want to get my point. I likened creation to a great cosmic play play/drama of the Lord. There must in the small parts be some temporary good/evil, pain/joy, success/failure, suffering/pleasure....etc. You're not dealing with the typical western argument against the PoE here.

Oh dear. Your point is not particularly complex or difficult to grasp. It simply doesn't alleviate the problem, and it seems YOU are unable or unwilling to grasp that.

For a truly perfect cosmic designer or god, "there must in the small parts be some...evil..pain...suffering" is false; this is only the case for an IMPERFECT (i.e. lacking in either benevolence, knowledge or power) designer.

Plus, eastern thinking posits a reason of cause/effect stretching back eons (karma), that explains pain/joy, suffering/pleasure, disease/health...etc. In your western thinking you're looking at these things as random events that happen to people's one and only physical life.

Your arguments perhaps make sense in a western context. In an eastern context the Problem of Evil arguments don't apply or make sense.

Simply saying your line of reasoning is "eastern" doesn't mitigate the logic of your argument; regardless of whether you're sympathetic to Eastern thinking or Western thinking, a cosmic designer possessing the three OMNI attributes is logically inconsistent with the fact of gratuituous suffering and evil in the world. The "ends justify the means", or "limited perspective" responses simply don't solve the problem.

 

[Willamena]

Are you intentionally being dense, or playing coy, or what? The point is that the both of us can imagine a universe with less, or no, gratuitous suffering, thus it is clearly logically possible for a universe to exist with less suffering than there is in the real universe. And such a universe would be morally preferable to the present one. That is the salient point here.

What is the relation between perfection and preference?

 

[George-ananda]

Is death and old age really a bad thing? Especially since not everyone ages the same, short of disease those who are old can still enjoy life.

You're actually agreeing with me. I've been arguing against other people's view of a perfect universe.

 

[George-ananda]

Are you intentionally being dense, or playing coy, or what? The point is that the both of us can imagine a universe with less, or no, gratuitous suffering, thus it is clearly logically possible for a universe to exist with less suffering than there is in the real universe. And such a universe would be morally preferable to the present one. That is the salient point here.


I'm proud of you. Unfortunately, your response is no less silly.


Oh dear. Your point is not particularly complex or difficult to grasp. It simply doesn't alleviate the problem, and it seems YOU are unable or unwilling to grasp that.

For a truly perfect cosmic designer or god, "there must in the small parts be some...evil..pain...suffering" is false; this is only the case for an IMPERFECT (i.e. lacking in either benevolence, knowledge or power) designer.


Simply saying your line of reasoning is "eastern" doesn't mitigate the logic of your argument; regardless of whether you're sympathetic to Eastern thinking or Western thinking, a cosmic designer possessing the three OMNI attributes is logically inconsistent with the fact of gratuituous suffering and evil in the world. The "ends justify the means", or "limited perspective" responses simply don't solve the problem.

Well, I'm not going to repeat myself for the fourth time (as I can now see it's pointless and will lead to fifth time). You seem to have a set argument in your head from debating western religious thinkers. This particular debate between us ends here. We'll probably meet in disagreement again on another thread.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Weak.

 

[LuisDantas]

By which criteria is an universe with no visible purpose or planning, and that is doomed to self-destruct, perfect?

 

[Willamena]

By which criteria is an universe with no visible purpose or planning, and that is doomed to self-destruct, perfect?

By Taoist criteria, in which form and emptiness have equal weight.

Is it a universe (in which we live) self-destructing, or a void (in which we live) reasserting itself?

 

[LuisDantas]

By Taoist criteria, in which form and emptiness have equal weight.

Is it a universe (in which we live) self-destructing, or a void (in which we live) reasserting itself?

A good answer. Frubal.

Still, I wonder... is that perfection, or just harmony?

 

[George-ananda]

By which criteria is an universe with no visible purpose or planning, and that is doomed to self-destruct, perfect?

By the criteria of a Great Divine Play; with a beginning, middle and happy ending for all.

Willamena got a frubal for her answer.....can I, can I, can I?

 

[LuisDantas]

If you have use for my (obviously imperfect) frubals, then sure, why not?