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Is there an obligation for a faith believer

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
:cool:
Only IF I want you to take it seriously
BUT I have no desire to convince you

Truth NEVER needs to be explained

People who are ready, they feel it
Hence, no need to explain it

And

Those who are not ready don't feel it
However often it would be explained to them

I'm a little confused as to why you'd bother to make a claim if you didn't want me to take it seriously, though I guess that doesn't really matter

However, there's little chance that I'll take what you say seriously if your method for ascertaining the truth is based on whether or not you 'feel' that it's true. People accept all sorts of ridiculous claims simply because it 'feels true' to them. If it can't be explained and can only be felt it seems highly unlikely that it's actually true.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That's the way confirmation bias works. You start with a belief and faith in the teaching and then seek 'evidence' to try to support and justify that faith. But any method that begins with and relies on faith is a poor method for ascertaining genuine truth, since faith is not a reliable path to the truth.

Well, that is not really the case. You are doing philosophy. Justified true belief as knowledge doesn't work. That is how we got methodological naturalism and evidence.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Not at all to me. No need to believe me

PROOF: IF you are thrown in the water, you better start to swim, don't wait to get proof that swimming is the solution here. You could wait a little, drown a little, and than you have your proof

No need to think at all.

Ones Questioning Mind that waits too long, could actually get you killed

Water is a physical reality that you have to figure out how to deal with within minutes or die. Hardly the same as a fantastical claim for which there is no verifiable evidence. In fact it would be foolish and dangerous for me to accept every fantastical claim that's made without thinking about it first. That's how people end up flying airplanes into buildings or becoming mindless Q-Anon followers.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Clearly you speak for yourself here

Because

I don't start off deciding what I want to be true
I don't try to find justification for my belief

Actually I wasn't talking to you, I was responding to someone else and explaining how confirmation bias works and I was using 'you' in the universal sense to indicate 'a person'.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Well, that is not really the case. You are doing philosophy. Justified true belief as knowledge doesn't work. That is how we got methodological naturalism and evidence.

That's what confirmation bias is. It's when you ask if a claim is true or false and instead of withholding belief that it's true until you find sufficient evidence to support such a conclusion, you start off assuming that it's true and then seek out evidence to try and support that belief.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Actually I wasn't talking to you, I was responding to someone else and explaining how confirmation bias works and I was using 'you' in the universal sense to indicate 'a person'.

Yeah, but if you believe in truth, you claim you know what objective reality is based on your post. Nobody has been able to do that in recorded history; i.e. know what objective reality is.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That's what confirmation bias is. It's when you ask if a claim is true or false and instead of withholding belief that it's true until you find sufficient evidence to support such a conclusion, you start off assuming that it's true and then seek out evidence to try and support that belief.

So what is objective reality as independent of the mind other than independent of the the mind?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
From discussion with some very few non believers of religion or spiritual practice, it seems like they see it as an obligation for the faith believers to explain in details "Why, How and in what way" the faith believers come to their personal belief.

But say its an obligation to explain to anyone who just going to refuse the answer as wishful thinking, falacy, or other negative intepretations done by the non believer.

The way a believer become more and more firm in their belief is to practice the teaching for years.

So non believers, if you want the real answers from religious scripture, you better start practicing, because there are no short cuts to gain wisdom from scriptures, one has to practice it every day to gain wisdom and deeper understanding.

If a faith believer just give you an answer, you yourself has not gained anything at all.

Yes, there is one obligation of a faith believer in Chrstianity - that you live out what you believe, else your faith is dead.
It says that even the devils believe.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but if you believe in truth, you claim you know what objective reality is based on your post. Nobody has been able to do that in recorded history; i.e. know what objective reality is.

Of course all reality is experienced subjectively, so it's impossible to say with absolute certainty what objective reality is. But when we compare our subjective realities we find similarities that suggests an objective reality that we all have to deal with. What people call truths about objective reality are all based on the comparisons we all make about our individual subjective realities. Realities like gravity or the fact that if you're in water over your head you have to learn how to swim or drown. The best way that human beings have found thus for for reliably determining how the objective reality we all appear to share works is the scientific method, which only works so well because it rigorously avoids confirmation bias.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Of course all reality is experienced subjectively, so it's impossible to say with absolute certainty what objective reality is. But when we compare our subjective realities we find similarities that suggests an objective reality that we all have to deal with. What people call truths about objective reality are all based on the comparisons we all make about our individual subjective realities. Realities like gravity or the fact that if you're in water over your head you have to learn how to swim or drown. The best way that human beings have found thus for for reliably determining how the objective reality we all appear to share works is the scientific method, which only works so well because it rigorously avoids confirmation bias.

Correct, but you can't use science to show that it is not correct to believe in a God. It is not correct to believe in a God; is not a fact. It is an evaluation in your brain.
You are doing 2 things. How evidence works and if we ought to use evidence. Those are not the same.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
From discussion with some very few non believers of religion or spiritual practice, it seems like they see it as an obligation for the faith believers to explain in details "Why, How and in what way" the faith believers come to their personal belief.

But say its an obligation to explain to anyone who just going to refuse the answer as wishful thinking, falacy, or other negative intepretations done by the non believer.

The way a believer become more and more firm in their belief is to practice the teaching for years.

So non believers, if you want the real answers from religious scripture, you better start practicing, because there are no short cuts to gain wisdom from scriptures, one has to practice it every day to gain wisdom and deeper understanding.

If a faith believer just give you an answer, you yourself has not gained anything at all.

The only obligation we have is to make disciples and bring the Good News of salvation.


Non-believes do what it says on the tin – they do not believe in God.

They do not care about God.

They do not care what the will of God is.

They are, therefore, incapable of doing His will.

Clever arguments do not impress them.


Those who believe want to please God and do His will.


1 Corinthians 2:13-14

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.


John 14:17
The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The only obligation we have is to make disciples and bring the Good News of salvation.


Non-believes do what it says on the tin – they do not believe in God.

They do not care about God.

They do not care what the will of God is.

They are, therefore, incapable of doing His will.

Clever arguments do not impress them.


Those who believe want to please God and do His will.


1 Corinthians 2:13-14

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.


John 14:17
The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.

Well, I do God's will thought to you I am a non-believer, because the God I believe in, is not the same God as you.
Your God is religious in a standard sense and mine is philosophical, but they are both religious in an academic sense.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
Well, I do God's will thought to you I am a non-believer, because the God I believe in, is not the same God as you.
Your God is religious in a standard sense and mine is philosophical, but they are both religious in an academic sense.

Are you explaining realism v anti-realism? And I know it's not the same.

God reveals Himself in Scripture and it can, therefore, not be a product of my mind. God is mind-independent.

Your idea of a god is subjective - mind-dependent.

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” That is the God I believe in and it cannot change. God is an objective reality.

Your god is as real or unreal as you wish it to be. Your god depends on how you feel and could even cease to exist if you so wish. You call your ideas god. If that makes you happy, go for it but if you start hearing his/her voice, seek help.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
IMO

As I understand it, when @Seeker of White Light says "all religious teachings have truth to them" he is referring to the original scriptures, not to every later expounder of those those scriptures.

I am just exploring some of the recommendations and advice for non-believers stated in the OP. Specifically:
"So non believers, if you want the real answers from religious scripture, you better start practicing, because there are no short cuts to gain wisdom from scriptures, one has to practice it every day to gain wisdom and deeper understanding."

I chose some extreme examples of some who have practiced their religion every day to gain wisdom, and for me personally, I do not see that wisdom was gained, and in fact, to my mind, great harm was done.

You add the criteria of limiting ones self to "original scriptures" and to essentially disregard every later expounder of those scriptures. The first dilemma here is that we are now distinguishing between any religious belief or teaching and saying that only some are actually correct and will provide the sought after wisdom. In other posts, the OP seems to favor the Abrahamic based religions as representative of the true word of God.

The problem you bring up is this concept of what is a "later expounder"? Certainly for Jews, Muslims, and Christians, John Smith of LDS would be considered a later expounder and therefore disregarded by your criteria. And again, using that criteria, Muhammad would certainly be considered a later expounder to the Christian community, and so if we are faithful to your concept of originalism, we must also dismiss his teachings. And at last, Jesus is certainly a later expounder when seem from the perspective of those in the Jewish faith. Sticking to originalism, that leaves us with the Tanakh as our reliable, original scripture if we are to limit ourselves to the Abrahamic tradition.

Have I gotten this correct in terms of the OP and your opinion?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Are you explaining realism v anti-realism? And I know it's not the same.

God reveals Himself in Scripture and it can, therefore, not be a product of my mind. God is mind-independent.

Your idea of a god is subjective - mind-dependent.

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” That is the God I believe in and it cannot change. God is an objective reality.

Your god is as real or unreal as you wish it to be. Your god depends on how you feel and could even cease to exist if you so wish. You call your ideas god. If that makes you happy, go for it but if you start hearing his/her voice, seek help.

You see, I am a strong philosophical skeptic and as such, I have only faith and so do you. The difference is that your faith holds authority over me. I don't claim that my faith holds authority over you.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...


I am just exploring some of the recommendations and advice for non-believers stated in the OP. Specifically:
"So non believers, if you want the real answers from religious scripture, you better start practicing, because there are no short cuts to gain wisdom from scriptures, one has to practice it every day to gain wisdom and deeper understanding."

...

I am a non-believer in the standard sense and my answer has the following bias, that I will state. I don't consider religion special as neither a positive nor a negative. I consider it a multi-factor human behaviour that includes 3 general categories of beliefs. What objective reality is? What social life is? What individual life is? And combinations here of.
But that is not unique to standard religion, you will find the same in philosophy and in my culture it is the same for science as general knowledge.

So what is a scripture? It is any text, that says something about objective reality, social life and/or individual life and how that works and what we ought to do. We also have folk traditions for that even in Western culture.

So how do religion give wisdom and deeper understanding? Well, that depends on how you view the different texts and folk traditions?!

So for example I have for over 25 years now practice the wisdom and deeper understanding of being a strong philosophical skeptic. And that has its texts and even input from folk traditions. And as a skeptic in that tradition I don't have knowledge in any sense. I only have beliefs, which apparently work and thus I am religious in one sense and not in another.
 
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