Is there anything outside the material universe?

[WalterTrull]

I don't think it is observation by a conscious observer that triggers wavefunction collapse but, rather, interaction with other matter. If there is an observer, they are poking at it with material tools which interact with it.

You might want to take a look at this collection.

 

[ArtieE]

No, we've been through that. The image I have in my head exists in physical form (has objective reality) as a concept or memory but the contents of the concept or memory, like a drawing on a sheet of paper, do not.

How do you think your concept of a unicorn or an alternative universe exist in your head? As immaterial whats, exactly?

I don't understand what you mean. Can it be this? How Your Thoughts Change Your Brain, Cells, And Genes - The Best Brain Possible

 

[Pudding]

Is there anything outside the material universe?

Seems to me there are things not contained within the material physical universe and, therefore, not explained by science. Some examples:

1. The subjective experience of consciousness.
2. The initial conditions of the universe that allows it to support complex chemical biological life.
3. Sense of moral attributes such as goodness, beauty, love.
4. The presence of a divine creator God.

I propose that everything not contained within the physical realm resides within the spiritual realm. Such things as: beauty, concepts, consciousness, dreams, emotions, God, goodness, hallucinations, holiness, hope, ideas and concepts, life, memories, mind, morality, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, visions, will, and etc.

I also propose that nothing can be proved about the structure or function of the spiritual realm. There is no "spiritual" method corresponding to the scientific method. Therefore, all revealed religion and all beliefs about the spiritual realm are mere opinions. And there is no reason at all to expect anyone to adopt our opinions.

It appears to me your idea of spiritual realm is that anything which haven't yet found the method to explain or detect their physical existence, automatically renders them to be reside within the spiritual realm.

Long long ago when we haven't found and prove the physical existence of virus, germ, chemical elements, atom...etc, does that mean they also reside within the spiritual realm? No.

Same apply to things like: beauty, concepts, consciousness, dreams, emotions, God(s) and god(s) (if they exists), goodness, hallucinations, holiness, hope, ideas and concepts, life, memories, mind, morality, reason, souls and spirits(if they exists), symbols, visions, will.

If in the future, we find the method to explain and detect those things' physical existence, does they then suddenly become doesn't reside within spiritual realms?

 

[blü 2]

I don't understand what you mean. Can it be this? How Your Thoughts Change Your Brain, Cells, And Genes - The Best Brain Possible

You didn't answer my question. How do you think it works? Is the unicorn notion in your head a Platonic form? A vision of the astral plane or another unicorny dimension? What?

 

[tayla]

It appears to me your idea of spiritual realm is that anything which haven't yet found the method to explain or detect their physical existence, automatically renders them to be reside within the spiritual realm.

Seems like modern science is pretty advanced these day to expect to discover a new scientific law or force which results in the subjective experience of consciousness (for example).

 

[Trailblazer]

1. All present evidence points to consciousness being a process in the brain, which is material.

However, logically speaking, that does not mean that consciousness cannot exist outside the brain.

 

[Trailblazer]

I propose that everything not contained within the physical realm resides within the spiritual realm. Such things as: beauty, concepts, consciousness, dreams, emotions, God, goodness, hallucinations, holiness, hope, ideas and concepts, life, memories, mind, morality, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, visions, will, and etc.

I propose that some of these exist in both the physical realm and the spiritual realm and that the two realms are not really separate from each other, they are interconnected, interwoven. We, in the physical realm, cannot see the spiritual realm, but they, in the spiritual realm, can see the physical realm... Some people in the physical realm (mediums) can contact the spiritual realm and get information back from the spirits/souls who reside there.

I also propose that nothing can be proved about the structure or function of the spiritual realm. There is no "spiritual" method corresponding to the scientific method. Therefore, all revealed religion and all beliefs about the spiritual realm are mere opinions. And there is no reason at all to expect anyone to adopt our opinions.

No, nothing can be proven about the spiritual realm because the methods we have for proving can only prove physical things... This is logic 101 stuff.

But just because it cannot be proven by the methods we have does not mean it does not exist... God cannot be proven either but that does not mean God does not exist. The only reason we have to believe that God or a spiritual realm exist is because of the revealed religions... There is no other way to know about any of this.

 

[Polymath257]

However, logically speaking, that does not mean that consciousness cannot exist outside the brain.

Of course not. We also cannot rule out The Matrix or Descartes demon. But the simplest deduction from our observations is that consciousness is a physical process in the brain.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course not. We also cannot rule out The Matrix or Descartes demon. But the simplest deduction from our observations is that consciousness is a physical process in the brain.

Fair enough... that is the simplest deduction...

 

[ArtieE]

You didn't answer my question. How do you think it works? Is the unicorn notion in your head a Platonic form? A vision of the astral plane or another unicorny dimension? What?

How am I supposed to answer a question I don't understand? Are you asking how the unicorn notion is stored in my brain? Like memories. Memory Storage - Memory Processes - The Human Memory

 

[blü 2]

How am I supposed to answer a question I don't understand? Are you asking how the unicorn notion is stored in my brain? Like memories. Memory Storage - Memory Processes - The Human Memory

Yes, in what form do you think your concept of a unicorn is stored in your brain.

How does it differ from what I said?

 

[ArtieE]

Yes, in what form do you think your concept of a unicorn is stored in your brain.

Still don't understand the question. "long-term memories are stored throughout the brain as groups of neurons that are primed to fire together in the same pattern that created the original experience, and each component of a memory is stored in the brain area that initiated it (e.g. groups of neurons in the visual cortex store a sight, ..."
Memory Storage - Memory Processes - The Human Memory

How does it differ from what I said?

I don't know can't make much sense out of what you're saying.

 

[tayla]

As brain imaging studies improve, one can actually see what the mind of another is thinking or seeing. This may, over time, provide objective means to compare and validate 1st person mystical experiences , for example the various jhana levels of Buddhist meditation.

Several propositions come to mind:

1. The content of the subjective conscious experience among people and at different times is different. For example, my dogs have no clue about much of what's going on in my human experience.
2. The content of the subjective conscious experience of some people is superior to others. For example, when comparing a morally depraved person with a saintly person.

 

[blü 2]

Still don't understand the question. "long-term memories are stored throughout the brain as groups of neurons that are primed to fire together in the same pattern that created the original experience, and each component of a memory is stored in the brain area that initiated it (e.g. groups of neurons in the visual cortex store a sight, ..."
Memory Storage - Memory Processes - The Human MemoryI don't know can't make much sense out of what you're saying.

How does your own view differ from what I said?

 

[ArtieE]

How does your own view differ from what I said?

I answered that in post number 72. I don't know how my view differs from what you said because I don't understand what you say.

 

[blü 2]

I answered that in post number 72. I don't know how my view differs from what you said because I don't understand what you say.

*Deep breath*

Would you please restate what you didn't understand.

 

[ArtieE]

*Deep breath*

Would you please restate what you didn't understand.

Practically all your posts. I give up. Just leave it.

 

[Pudding]

Seems like modern science is pretty advanced these day to expect to discover a new scientific law or force which results in the subjective experience of consciousness (for example).

If supposed new scientific law or force exists, science may someday discover it, or may never discover it, time will tell.

If supposed new scientific law or force doesn't exists, discover or not is irrelevant.

 

[Milton Platt]

Is there anything outside the material universe?

Seems to me there are things not contained within the material physical universe and, therefore, not explained by science. Some examples:

1. The subjective experience of consciousness.
2. The initial conditions of the universe that allows it to support complex chemical biological life.
3. Sense of moral attributes such as goodness, beauty, love.
4. The presence of a divine creator God.

I propose that everything not contained within the physical realm resides within the spiritual realm. Such things as: beauty, concepts, consciousness, dreams, emotions, God, goodness, hallucinations, holiness, hope, ideas and concepts, life, memories, mind, morality, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, visions, will, and etc.

I also propose that nothing can be proved about the structure or function of the spiritual realm. There is no "spiritual" method corresponding to the scientific method. Therefore, all revealed religion and all beliefs about the spiritual realm are mere opinions. And there is no reason at all to expect anyone to adopt our opinions.

How, then do you verify the existence of these things? And if you cannot objectively verify them, why assume they exist?

 

[blü 2]

Practically all your posts. I give up. Just leave it.

Your call.

But keep trying. The truth is out there, or so I've heard.