Is there anything outside the material universe?

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: A “spirit within us” cannot convey a message from God that everyone on earth would be able to understand and remember... That is why we have scriptures that are in books and on the internet, readily available for people to read.Baha’u’llah wrote about 15,000 Tablets and those are just the ones that we have. He wrote many more than that that were lost to infamy. So, imagine yourself trying to write all that down yourself.

But that is a moot point because the message the message conveyed to the Messengers via the Holy Spirit is not receivable by anyone else except Messengers. Nobody else would have the capacity to understand it.

A Messenger of God is a subtle, mysterious and ethereal Being that has been assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. His body is human but His Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was rather preexistent. In that preexistence His Soul was given the capacity to receive direct revelations from God. Although the Messenger had to translate that Revelation into a form we could understand, His Words are endowed with an invisible spiritual force.

For me, there is just too much possibly for these messengers to be false - amongst any who might be genuine - just as in the written material - since they all must inevitably pass through human agency.

Sorry, but there is really no way to avoid that since God has to communicate somehow, and He does not communicate directly to “ordinary humans.”

Since the existence of God cannot be proven, it is impossible prove (establish as a fact) that anyone ever got messages from God. All we can do is look at the available body of facts or information that indicates a Prophet is not lying and that He really got a message from God.

This is really no different than me screening my tenants, gathering information about them in order to evaluate them for tenancy. Once I get the screening report back that might be good enough, or I might need to get more details regarding what came up on the report, especially if something negative is revealed, like bad credit or a criminal history. One cannot be too thorough when screening tenants; how much more that applies to Prophets. However, at a certain point, we need to make a decision, yes or no? Then later, if we find more evidence that indicates we were wrong, we can deal with it by evicting the tenant or the Prophet from our house.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for the long and thoughtful reply.

Where our paths part is that I dont believe any of them.get Messages.

Believe me, you are not alone in your disbelief.

Now, there are people who may achieve great insights,powerful wisdom, truths for all mankind.

I dont think any of it comes from outside though.Actually, I see that as a kind of insult to our kind,demeaning the amazing accomplishments of the countless generations of our ancestors.

Just how I see it.

Thanks for sharing your views...
I do not think that Messengers demean anything our ancestors have done because they don’t really do anything but bring a message from God. It is up to the people to do something with the message.

Messengers have been sent by God since mankind has existed...

A Messenger is kind of like the mailman who brings the mail, but the mail is for us, so we have to open it and take action. Those that take action deserve the credit.

Just how I see it.

Baha'i sounds interesting.

It is pretty cool...

 

[Mock Turtle]

Sorry, but there is really no way to avoid that since God has to communicate somehow, and He does not communicate directly to “ordinary humans.”

Since the existence of God cannot be proven, it is impossible prove (establish as a fact) that anyone ever got messages from God. All we can do is look at the available body of facts or information that indicates a Prophet is not lying and that He really got a message from God.

This is really no different than me screening my tenants, gathering information about them in order to evaluate them for tenancy. Once I get the screening report back that might be good enough, or I might need to get more details regarding what came up on the report, especially if something negative is revealed, like bad credit or a criminal history. One cannot be too thorough when screening tenants; how much more that applies to Prophets. However, at a certain point, we need to make a decision, yes or no? Then later, if we find more evidence that indicates we were wrong, we can deal with it by evicting the tenant or the Prophet from our house.

Why would one believe one individual over another - especially when one has an agenda (promoting a religion) - and where such things are usually beyond verification? The numerous 'messengers' surely says the opposite of what you are trying to assert - especially when they are hardly speaking as one. I tend not to place prophets in a place where they can have any power over me - as with all examples of human power - they often lead to error and bad consequences. The thread about cognitive dissonance and the Jonestown deaths is an example of bad prophets.

 

[Audie]

Believe me, you are not alone in your disbelief.

Thanks for sharing your views...
I do not think that Messengers demean anything our ancestors have done because they don’t really do anything but bring a message from God. It is up to the people to do something with the message.

Messengers have been sent by God since mankind has existed...

A Messenger is kind of like the mailman who brings the mail, but the mail is for us, so we have to open it and take action. Those that take action deserve the credit.

Just how I see it.

It is pretty cool...

Re in bold, above-

You are missing my idea, as we come to it from opposite pov.

If there is no god of any sort, as is my belief, then
any message from same, however sincerely the bearer
of may be about getting it from god, is in fact not from god.

For good or ill, it is a human accomplishment,
human credit or blame.

Similarly, I find the Christian idea of "Adam and Eve"
particularly offensive. Not just the whole original sin,
corruption and of course, blame the woman, which is
stupid and wrongheaded enough to satisfy most anyone.

But see, I believe, and any physical evidence available
would support this view-

That we have a very deep history going back
hundreds of millions of years.

Proto-humans and more recent pre-modern humans
struggled and survived for hundreds of thousands of
years. Their sacrifices made our lives possible.

And then we come along and say, Nah, you never
even existed, what actually happened was god-poof.

Any intellectual, moral, artistic etc abilities you have?

God-poof. Your ancestors didnt develop it. God just
gave it to you.

See how crediting "messengers" with having word
from "god" is demeaning?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would one believe one individual over another - especially when one has an agenda (promoting a religion) - and where such things are usually beyond verification? The numerous 'messengers' surely says the opposite of what you are trying to assert - especially when they are hardly speaking as one. I tend not to place prophets in a place where they can have any power over me - as with all examples of human power - they often lead to error and bad consequences. The thread about cognitive dissonance and the Jonestown deaths is an example of bad prophets.

It is unfair to compare false prophets with True Prophets because the former are just greedy con men who seek power and the latter got a message from God and sought only to serve God and humanity. It is pretty easy to differentiate false from True if you look at their character, what they wrote and what they did on their mission:

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.”
Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

 

[Trailblazer]

You are missing my idea, as we come to it from opposite pov.

If there is no god of any sort, as is my belief, thenany message from same, however sincerely the bearerof may be about getting it from god, is in fact not from god.

For good or ill, it is a human accomplishment, human credit or blame.

Well obviously, if there is no God there cannot be a “Messenger OF God.”

Similarly, I find the Christian idea of "Adam and Eve"particularly offensive. Not just the whole original sin, corruption and of course, blame the woman, which is stupid and wrongheaded enough to satisfy most anyone.

I do not believe in the Christian idea of Adam and Eve. It is offensive. 30: ADAM AND EVE

But see, I believe, and any physical evidence available would support this view-

That we have a very deep history going back hundreds of millions of years.

Proto-humans and more recent pre-modern humansstruggled and survived for hundreds of thousands of years. Their sacrifices made our lives possible.

And then we come along and say, Nah, you nevereven existed, what actually happened was god-poof.

I do not believe that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman and that God created the world 6000 years ago. Baha’is believe in evolution.

Any intellectual, moral, artistic etc abilities you have?

God-poof. Your ancestors didnt develop it. God just gave it to you.

See how crediting "messengers" with having word from "god" is demeaning?

No, I do not see that. Messengers are just like mailmen who bring messages from God. Humans are the ones who open the mail and use it to help create a better world.

Humans evolved over time, but somewhere during the process of evolution God gave us a soul, which is what enables us to create a better world.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It is unfair to compare false prophets with True Prophets because the former are just greedy con men who seek power and the latter got a message from God and sought only to serve God and humanity. It is pretty easy to differentiate false from True if you look at their character, what they wrote and what they did on their mission:

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.”
Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

I just don't believe this, and the splitting of virtually all religions - search for the image 'evolutionary tree of religion 2.0' (you will probably have seen this) - to see how religious beliefs just always seem to do so. Why would this be if any one of them had some kind of essential message coming from a bona fide prophet - why all the conflict - and which often leads to violence? I suspect that it isn't as easy as you seem to think to differentiate the truth from non truth.

 

[Audie]

No, I do not see that. Messengers are just like mailmen who bring messages from God. Humans are the ones who open the mail and use it to help create a better world.

Humans evolved over time, but somewhere during the process of evolution God gave us a soul, which is what enables us to create a better world.

See that is what I mean. We mere humans could not come up with the wisdom on our own.

Could not create a better world without a "god" to help out.

Even though you dont have "god" poofing us into existence, or necessarily meddling much, you still give ultimate credit to, "god".

People are strange creatures, with a lot that is not very good, but what we are we did on our own. Is how I see it.

In the ongoing absence of any indication that there is a god, I will stick to that.

 

[Mock Turtle]

See that is what I mean. We mere humans could not come up with the wisdom on our own.

Could not create a better world without a "god" to help out.

Even though you dont have "god" poofing us into existence, or necessarily meddling much, you still give ultimate credit to, "god".

People are strange creatures, with a lot that is not very good, but what we are we did on our own. Is how I see it.

In the ongoing absence of any indication that there is a god, I will stick to that.

Quite. But I suppose we should give all the credit to the religious - being so generous ourselves.

 

[Audie]

Quite. But I suppose we should give all the credit to the religious - being so generous ourselves.

Absolutely! They came up with all those gods, rituals and so forth entirely on their
own, no supernatural help at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

I just don't believe this, and the splitting of virtually all religions - search for the image 'evolutionary tree of religion 2.0' (you will probably have seen this) - to see how religious beliefs just always seem to do so. Why would this be if any one of them had some kind of essential message coming from a bona fide prophet - why all the conflict - and which often leads to violence? I suspect that it isn't as easy as you seem to think to differentiate the truth from non truth.

The conflict is not because of what the Prophets revealed. It is because of what the followers DID to what the Prophets revealed.

The “original religions” that God revealed to the Prophets aka Messengers are the true religions, but and all the stuff that was done to them AFTER THAT (e.g., Christian doctrines) is man-made.... stuff is what we have with ALL the older religions, man-made stuff that was added after the fact....

The originally revealed religions are pristine at the time of revelation but after humans have been swimming around in the scriptures for a number of years they become like dirty water in a lake, even polluted. So the original message that God sought to convey gets changed. I believe that the dogmas and doctrines of the Church are man-made and are wrong, derived from misinterpretations of the scriptures, but that does not mean that the Gospels are wrong, quite the contrary.

All the religions that were originally revealed by God to Messengers (Prophets) contain spiritual guidance and teachings that endure through history for the spiritual guidance of humanity, but the ancient religions lack original scripture, and have been subject to highly variable interpretation of the many divisions over time.

It would help to understand what I mean by religion... In brief:

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

Religion has to change over time so that it is in accordance with the needs of the times we live in. Every age in history has its own problems and requires its own solutions vouchsafed onto it by God through a new Messenger (Prophet). Religion has to be renewed in every age because people have lost sight of the spiritual verities that were revealed in the previous religion, having replaced those with doctrines and dogmas... i.e., dirty water in the lake.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: No, I do not see that. Messengers are just like mailmen who bring messages from God. Humans are the ones who open the mail and use it to help create a better world.

Humans evolved over time, but somewhere during the process of evolution God gave us a soul, which is what enables us to create a better world.

See that is what I mean. We mere humans could not come up with the wisdom on our own.

Could not create a better world without a "god" to help out.

Even though you dont have "god" poofing us into existence, or necessarily meddling much, you still give ultimate credit to, "god".

People are strange creatures, with a lot that is not very good, but what we are we did on our own. Is how I see it.

In the ongoing absence of any indication that there is a god, I will stick to that.

Humans can come up with wisdom on their own and that is the whole point... Messengers just give us general guidelines, they don’t tell us what to do.

I do not give any credit to God, except for sending the Messengers. There is no God running the world... God gave us the car keys. ;-)

 

[Mock Turtle]

Humans can come up with wisdom on their own and that is the whole point... Messengers just give us general guidelines, they don’t tell us what to do.

I do not give any credit to God, except for sending the Messengers. There is no God running the world... God gave us the car keys. ;-)

And much like naughty teenagers, we are continually crashing the car.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The conflict is not because of what the Prophets revealed. It is because of what the followers DID to what the Prophets revealed.

The “original religions” that God revealed to the Prophets aka Messengers are the true religions, but and all the stuff that was done to them AFTER THAT (e.g., Christian doctrines) is man-made.... stuff is what we have with ALL the older religions, man-made stuff that was added after the fact....

So there was nothing known about how humans might react to such? Seems like an error of judgement somewhere to me.

 

[Audie]

Humans can come up with wisdom on their own and that is the whole point... Messengers just give us general guidelines, they don’t tell us what to do.

I do not give any credit to God, except for sending the Messengers. There is no God running the world... God gave us the car keys. ;-)

Such is the nature of faith.

Religion is a culture of faith.

I dont do faith / god. I see no
sense in it at all.

Thanks for the pov.

 

[Audie]

So there was nothing known about how humans might react to such? Seems like an error of judgement somewhere to me.

So it seems to me. "God" has no detectable
role, for all that some make claims to get visits
and conversations.

I dont know of any descriptors for non-existent
that "god (s)" dont meet.

I was listening to a person whose mental
illness was successfully treated, she describrd
seeing people's faces transformed into the
faces of demons. I guess that is common
with mental illness.

Of course, in the day this was terrifying
evidence enough of the reality of demons.

If people choose to believe some
person who has visions and messages,
that is their lookout, for lo, it
oten turns out very badly for them.

 

[viole]

I
Seems to me there are things not contained within the material physical universe and, therefore, not explained by science. Some examples:

Non-sequitur. Not explained by science does not entail outside the material physical universe.
If something is outside the material universe, then it cannot be explained by science. The contrary is far from obvious.

1. The subjective experience of consciousness.

Try to have a non physical experience of consciousness after ingesting 50 very physical shots of Vodka.

1. The initial conditions of the universe that allows it to support complex chemical biological life.

Question begging. I believe the Universe has been finely tuned to generate, eventually, mount Everest. Or the moon. Biological life is only a by-product. And not particularly interesting.

1. Sense of moral attributes such as goodness, beauty, love.

These are just evolved traits. We have romantic love because of the time it takes our babies to become independent, for instance. I would be careful to extend these concepts beyond a certain biological context.

1. The presence of a divine creator God.

Is this a joke? Spirituality exists because there is a divine creator?
Sounds a bit circular.

I propose that everything not contained within the physical realm resides within the spiritual realm.

Agreed. In math we call that the empty set.

Such things as: beauty, concepts, consciousness, dreams, emotions, God, goodness, hallucinations, holiness, hope, ideas and concepts, life, memories, mind, morality, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, visions, will, and etc.

Again, all these things are definable only within a biological context. For instance within the framework of great apes. If dinosaurs evolved to be "smart" instead of primates, probably their spirituality would include things that are totally alien to us.

To promote them to platonic and absolute objects is totally unsubstantiated, and question begging.

I also propose that nothing can be proved about the structure or function of the spiritual realm. There is no "spiritual" method corresponding to the scientific method. Therefore, all revealed religion and all beliefs about the spiritual realm are mere opinions. And there is no reason at all to expect anyone to adopt our opinions.

I agree that all beliefs about the spiritual realm are mere opinions. Including the belief that it exists.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Mock Turtle]

So it seems to me. "God" has no detectable
role, for all that some make claims to get visits
and conversations.

I dont know of any descriptors for non-existent
that "god (s)" dont meet.

I was listening to a person whose mental
illness was successfully treated, she describrd
seeing people's faces transformed into the
faces of demons. I guess that is common
with mental illness.

Of course, in the day this was terrifying
evidence enough of the reality of demons.

If people choose to believe some
person who has visions and messages,
that is their lookout, for lo, it
oten turns out very badly for them.

Quite. Humans have enough problems hearing imaginary voices and hallucinating without adding to their woes.

 

[Audie]

Quite. Humans have enough problems hearing imaginary voices and hallucinating without adding to their woes.

It is not as if these gods were in the habit of giving good advice!

 

[Mock Turtle]

It is not as if these gods were in the habit of giving good advice!

Some seem to think so.