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Is this Sunni or Shia?

ronki23

Well-Known Member
If a Muslim believes that Ali was one of the four rightly guided Caliphs and that he was an Imam then he/she is a Sunni.

If a Muslim believes that Ali was the first Caliph/Imam then he/she is Shia.

If a Muslim believes that Ali's descendants may only be Imam then he/she is Shia.

What if a Muslim believes Ali was the fourth Caliph/Imam but any further Imams must be descendants of Ali? Is he/she Sunni, Shia or a mix?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
If a Muslim believes that Ali was one of the four rightly guided Caliphs and that he was an Imam then he/she is a Sunni.

If a Muslim believes that Ali was the first Caliph/Imam then he/she is Shia.

If a Muslim believes that Ali's descendants may only be Imam then he/she is Shia.

What if a Muslim believes Ali was the fourth Caliph/Imam but any further Imams must be descendants of Ali? Is he/she Sunni, Shia or a mix?
That would be probably a new sect.
I would call it Shinni = Shia + Sunni

Shias believe an Imam has supernatural powers, and are infallible. So, just believing Ali and his descendants are Imams wouldn't make them Shia in my opinion.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Shias don't believe that Ali was the Fourth Caliph? Are you sure?

If true, that surprises me. Sure, people will interpret events in all conceivable ways and then some, but the role of Caliph has a very public and very political nature. It is arguably entirely political even.

I don't think that very many Shias doubt that Ali succeeded Umar as Caliph. (Edited to add: but not immediately; the third Caliph was of course Uthman. Again, that is not at all controversial; it just happens that Shias care a lot more about Imams than about Caliphs, and may well believe that there ought not to have been any Caliphs at all)

For that matter, very few people doubt that, period. Even outside Muslim communities. It was a historical event, a very public one, about as well documented as any event could be at the time.

It seems to me that the core matters here are:

1. Whether Ali should have been selected as the first Caliph instead of Abu Bakr.

Sure, most Shias will feel that Ali should have been the first Caliph as opposed to the fourth. But I don't think that they will want to challenge the statement that he eventually did in fact become the fourth Caliph.


2. Whether Imams are a meaningful role deserving of acknowledgement by Muslims of good faith.

As I understand it, Imam is a purely Shia concept. Sunnis don't acknowledge Imams at all. In contrast to Caliphs and Emirs, the very existence of Imams is a matter of belief - Shia belief specifically.

All Imams going back to Ali himself, and all members of the Al-Bayt more generally, are presumably chosen by Allah to serve a role with clear supernatural components. All of the Al-Bayt are either Ali himself, his wife Fatimah, or their descendants.

I am disregarding here the use of the expression "Al-Bayt" by Sunni sources, of course. They may use the expression, but it is clearly with a significantly different, wider yet much less exalted and much more peripheral meaning than that of the Shia.

Sunni speak of Muhammad's direct family generally, including his wives, as being the Al-Bayt - but they don't really expect Imams or even martyrs to arise among them, and they certainly aren't interested in making claims about the descendants of Ali and Fatimah to any extent comparable to Shias'. Shias use a considerably more strict definition because they put their Al-Bayt in a much, much more central role.

There are always exceptions - particularly in contingents of hundreds of milliions of people - but I would expect that few and perhaps no Sunni will even acknowledge that the Al-Bayt exist as such, let alone Imams. And it is unusual indeed to find anyone who believes that Imams exist but also that there may be any who are not either Ali or his direct descendants.
 
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ronki23

Well-Known Member
Shias don't believe that Ali was the Fourth Caliph? Are you sure?

If true, that surprises me. Sure, people will interpret events in all conceivable ways and then some, but the role of Caliph has a very public and very political nature. It is arguably entirely political even.

I don't think that very many Shias doubt that Ali succeeded Umar as Caliph.

For that matter, very few people doubt that, period. Even outside Muslim communities. It was a historical event, a very public one, about as well documented as any event could be at the time.

It seems to me that the core matters here are:

1. Whether Ali should have been selected as the first Caliph instead of Abu Bakr.

Sure, most Shias will feel that Ali should have been the first Caliph as opposed to the fourth. But I don't think that they will want to challenge the statement that he eventually did in fact become the fourth Caliph.


2. Whether Imams are a meaningful role deserving of acknowledgement by Muslims of good faith.

As I understand it, Imam is a purely Shia concept. Sunnis don't acknowledge Imams at all. In contrast to Caliphs and Emirs, the very existence of Imams is a matter of belief - Shia belief specifically.

All Imams going back to Ali himself, and all members of the Al-Bayt more generally, are presumably chosen by Allah to serve a role with clear supernatural components. All of the Al-Bayt are either Ali himself, his wife Fatimah, or their descendants.

I am disregarding here the use of the expression "Al-Bayt" by Sunni sources, of course. They may use the expression, but it is clearly with a significantly different, wider yet much less exalted and much more peripheral meaning than that of the Shia.

Sunni speak of Muhammad's direct family generally, including his wives, as being the Al-Bayt - but they don't really expect Imams or even martyrs to arise among them, and they certainly aren't interested in making claims about the descendants of Ali and Fatimah to any extent comparable to Shias'. Shias use a considerably more strict definition because they put their Al-Bayt in a much, much more central role.

There are always exceptions - particularly in contingents of hundreds of milliions of people - but I would expect that few and perhaps no Sunni will even acknowledge that the Al-Bayt exist as such, let alone Imams. And it is unusual indeed to find anyone who believes that Imams exist but also that there may be any who are not either Ali or his direct descendants.

That would be probably a new sect.
I would call it Shinni = Shia + Sunni

Shias believe an Imam has supernatural powers, and are infallible. So, just believing Ali and his descendants are Imams wouldn't make them Shia in my opinion.

Shia believe Ali was the first Imam while Sunni believe he was the Fourth Caliph. I don't know how Caliph and Imam differ.

Can a Shia believe Ali was the Fourth but any further Caliph must be descendants of Muhammad? Or is that a new school of thought?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Shia believe Ali was the first Imam while Sunni believe he was the Fourth Caliph. I don't know how Caliph and Imam differ.

Can a Shia believe Ali was the Fourth but any further Caliph must be descendants of Muhammad? Or is that a new school of thought?
There are different Shia sects. The main one is the 12 Imami Shia, who believe all 12 are descendants of Muhammad.
Caliph or Imams in Sunni Islam, are not believed to have been appointed by God. But in Shia belief an Imam or Khalif, is appointed by God and has given vision and miracles. In Sunni Islam, an Imam, is no different than other human beings. Only may be considered a good Muslim or a Leader but have no divine authority. In Shia, Imams are Holy beliefs.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Shia believe Ali was the first Imam while Sunni believe he was the Fourth Caliph. I don't know how Caliph and Imam differ.

Can a Shia believe Ali was the Fourth but any further Caliph must be descendants of Muhammad? Or is that a new school of thought?
Speaking with all the authority (eh!) of someone who could not be further distanced from Islam if I wanted to, I have researched the matter to a honest degree.


Caliphs and Imams are comparable roles in some senses, but very unlike in others. Again, there ought to be exceptions somewhere, but orthodoxy is important for Muslims, and very consistently the words (particularly Imam) hold very different meanings indeed between sects.

In a nutshell, Shia Islam exists and is distinguishable from Sunni Islam mainly for reasons directly related to the role of Imam and the idea of the Al-Bayt as a religiously central concept. It is not a minor divergence about word meanings; it is a complete divergence on what the nature of leadership in the worldwide Muslim communities ought to be once Muhammad is no longer alive.

Caliphs are not expected to have supernatural significance. Imams (by the Shia understanding) are.
 
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