Is traditionalism flawed?

[VioletVortex]

Up until now, I considered myself a "traditionalist" politically, among other things. Hypocritically so, of course. My actions are always anti-traditional beyond belief, in a very LHP way. I have never held any sentiments against gay people, transgender people, and so on, I always said I was for the "traditional" family, even though I had no values backing that up. I am starting to question this political identity now.

The main advantage I see in traditionalism is that it promotes the protection of culture, religion, race, the environment etc. Keep in mind that I am talking about Pagan traditionalism, not it's Jewish variant. Also, it pisses me off that so many people have to suffer, working minimum wage jobs to support an entire family, who will also be destined to do the same just to permit the existence of our modern society.

At the same time, however, what if modern civilization fell and we again adopted a lifestyle in line with that led in ancient times? Life wouldn't really have much meaning from a broad vantage point if we lived like that for eternity. Wouldn't we be wasting the gift given to us humans-a higher level of sentience, the ability to broaden our horizons as a species. It just seems kind of wasteful. We progressed this far already, seemingly due to natural reasons. Granted, we are certainly misguided, considering that our "advancements" are more the products of stagnation.

Share your thoughts on progressivism vs traditionalism. I am currently unsure when it comes to my overall opinion here, so I won't be able to provide input there as of now.

 

[Desert Snake]

Keep in mind that I am talking about Pagan traditionalism, not it's Jewish variant.

Traditionalism varies wildly.

 

[Polymath257]

Traditions are good only when they do good for people. I'm not familiar with Pagan traditions, as such, but all cultures have traditions that can be harmful. Such traditions need to be eliminated or changed, finding new traditions that work better.

All civilizations grow and change or they die. To adhere to tradition for the sake of tradition puts the culture on the dying path, not the path to growth. As we learn how to be better people, our traditions *should* change to show that growth.

So, yeah, I guess I'm on the progressivism side of the fence.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Pagan cultures had room for LGBT people. They were religious leaders and people had same- sex lovers on the side, such as with the Greeks. The modern heterocentrist view of the family is a modern construct.

I think the sweet spot is in the middle. Hold to the things that have proven of value and progress with the rest.

 

[sun rise]

To me, if it works well, keep it (tradition). If it's stopped working well, change it. So that amounts to not having a this or that opinion.

 

[SabahTheLoner]

I think the sweet spot is in the middle. Hold to the things that have proven of value and progress with the rest.

I have the same view. Why change something that works well? Why keep something the same when it causes so many problems? Do 50/50, traditional/progressive.

 

[Mindmaster]

Share your thoughts on progressivism vs traditionalism. I am currently unsure when it comes to my overall opinion here, so I won't be able to provide input there as of now.

I wouldn't spend so much effort attempting to box my views into neat little containers, just do you.

Modern day pagans don't have any basis for traditionalist beliefs other than making it up as they go, but if you are trying to actively combine progressivism with that you are about to get hit in the face with massive cognitive dissonance via the views on race, public welfare, etc.

Anyway, these are basically irreconcilable positions but you can be "mostly this" or "mostly that".

 

[VioletVortex]

Pagan cultures had room for LGBT people. They were religious leaders and people had same- sex lovers on the side, such as with the Greeks. The modern heterocentrist view of the family is a modern construct.

I think the sweet spot is in the middle. Hold to the things that have proven of value and progress with the rest.

Depends on the culture...unfortunately, in the ancient Germanic legal system, homosexuality was punished by death, at least amongst some tribes. I think the Romans had ideals against it, and I know that the Greeks did not have an issue with homosexuality in and of itself, however it was looked down upon to be a male in a subordinate position, regardless of the gender of the other participant. This would make sense during that time, as authority and dominance were necessary qualities for men to have due to the prevalence of warfare and the need to defend oneself. This is partially true today as well, but it doesn't need to translate into an arbitrary piece of sexual morality.

What you say about balance and the "sweet spot" being in the middle seems to make sense. Excessive right wing policies (legislated traditionalism and nationalism) are destructive in that they cultivate a very closed minded and in some cases, paradoxically malleable culture. If respect for authority is a virtue in one's traditional doctrine, then there is a risk involved, of harmful ideas spreading throughout the populous. Also, because this would be associated with nationalism, there really aren't any other inputs as far as new ideas go, so essentially, the civilization would be ****ed. Look no further than North Korea

 

[Stevicus]

Share your thoughts on progressivism vs traditionalism. I am currently unsure when it comes to my overall opinion here, so I won't be able to provide input there as of now.

I probably lean more towards progressivism myself. I can see how traditionalism can provide a center and something solid to fall back on when all else fails, but oftentimes, when you take a long, hard look at a lot of traditions and other trappings of our society and culture, a lot of them seem utterly pointless. If people can come up with a logical reason or some kind of justification, that would be different, but when the only answer is "that's just the way we've always done things," then it's an insufficient answer.
Also, I would point out that traditionalism may not be able to protect culture, religion, etc., if it promotes stagnation and complacency.

 

[VioletVortex]

I probably lean more towards progressivism myself. I can see how traditionalism can provide a center and something solid to fall back on when all else fails, but oftentimes, when you take a long, hard look at a lot of traditions and other trappings of our society and culture, a lot of them seem utterly pointless. If people can come up with a logical reason or some kind of justification, that would be different, but when the only answer is "that's just the way we've always done things," then it's an insufficient answer.
Also, I would point out that traditionalism may not be able to protect culture, religion, etc., if it promotes stagnation and complacency.

"That's just the way we've always done things". That conjured an image of an ignorant redneck with an IQ of about 90 trying to explain her mundane conceit to ignorance to a liberal. Kind of amusing.

I have to agree that conservativism and traditionalism promote stagnation-intellectual, cultural, and physical. It's great to allow each culture to stay intact, but there's no point in that if they cannot interact; then it will be very fruitless anyways. A balance between the two seems very important.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Depends on the culture...unfortunately, in the ancient Germanic legal system, homosexuality was punished by death, at least amongst some tribes. I think the Romans had ideals against it, and I know that the Greeks did not have an issue with homosexuality in and of itself, however it was looked down upon to be a male in a subordinate position, regardless of the gender of the other participant. This would make sense during that time, as authority and dominance were necessary qualities for men to have due to the prevalence of warfare and the need to defend oneself. This is partially true today as well, but it doesn't need to translate into an arbitrary piece of sexual morality.

What you say about balance and the "sweet spot" being in the middle seems to make sense. Excessive right wing policies (legislated traditionalism and nationalism) are destructive in that they cultivate a very closed minded and in some cases, paradoxically malleable culture. If respect for authority is a virtue in one's traditional doctrine, then there is a risk involved, of harmful ideas spreading throughout the populous. Also, because this would be associated with nationalism, there really aren't any other inputs as far as new ideas go, so essentially, the civilization would be ****ed. Look no further than North Korea

Homosexuality wasn't punished with death until Christians started writing the laws. They did look down on "effeminancy" but it still existed. It definitely had its place in religion. Regardless, we don't have to reconstruct ancient cultures. We can take inspiration from what is good and leave the bad behind.

 

[Polymath257]

Homosexuality wasn't punished with death until Christians started writing the laws. They did look down on "effeminancy" but it still existed. It definitely had its place in religion. Regardless, we don't have to reconstruct ancient cultures. We can take inspiration from what is good and leave the bad behind.

In other words, create our own, new traditions?

 

[idav]

Up until now, I considered myself a "traditionalist" politically, among other things. Hypocritically so, of course. My actions are always anti-traditional beyond belief, in a very LHP way. I have never held any sentiments against gay people, transgender people, and so on, I always said I was for the "traditional" family, even though I had no values backing that up. I am starting to question this political identity now.

The main advantage I see in traditionalism is that it promotes the protection of culture, religion, race, the environment etc. Keep in mind that I am talking about Pagan traditionalism, not it's Jewish variant. Also, it pisses me off that so many people have to suffer, working minimum wage jobs to support an entire family, who will also be destined to do the same just to permit the existence of our modern society.

At the same time, however, what if modern civilization fell and we again adopted a lifestyle in line with that led in ancient times? Life wouldn't really have much meaning from a broad vantage point if we lived like that for eternity. Wouldn't we be wasting the gift given to us humans-a higher level of sentience, the ability to broaden our horizons as a species. It just seems kind of wasteful. We progressed this far already, seemingly due to natural reasons. Granted, we are certainly misguided, considering that our "advancements" are more the products of stagnation.

Share your thoughts on progressivism vs traditionalism. I am currently unsure when it comes to my overall opinion here, so I won't be able to provide input there as of now.

I think traditions and knowledge of our heritage is important and we should be able to learn from the past lest we repeat horrible mistakes. Being progressive means being able to handle and embrace change however change doesn't nessecarily mean it's a good thing. We have to be able use what has worked on the past and embrace change when we are failing.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

In other words, create our own, new traditions?

When needed.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Up until now, I considered myself a "traditionalist" politically, among other things. Hypocritically so, of course. My actions are always anti-traditional beyond belief, in a very LHP way. I have never held any sentiments against gay people, transgender people, and so on, I always said I was for the "traditional" family, even though I had no values backing that up. I am starting to question this political identity now.

The main advantage I see in traditionalism is that it promotes the protection of culture, religion, race, the environment etc. Keep in mind that I am talking about Pagan traditionalism, not it's Jewish variant. Also, it pisses me off that so many people have to suffer, working minimum wage jobs to support an entire family, who will also be destined to do the same just to permit the existence of our modern society.

At the same time, however, what if modern civilization fell and we again adopted a lifestyle in line with that led in ancient times? Life wouldn't really have much meaning from a broad vantage point if we lived like that for eternity. Wouldn't we be wasting the gift given to us humans-a higher level of sentience, the ability to broaden our horizons as a species. It just seems kind of wasteful. We progressed this far already, seemingly due to natural reasons. Granted, we are certainly misguided, considering that our "advancements" are more the products of stagnation.

Share your thoughts on progressivism vs traditionalism. I am currently unsure when it comes to my overall opinion here, so I won't be able to provide input there as of now.

It would be contingent on the effect's brought about by progressive and traditional values. I don't think it's a case of preferences, one is better or worse than another, as much as it is in finding that "sweet" spot that is most pertinent in continually changing and dynamic political and social landscapes

 

[VioletVortex]

It would be contingent on the effect's brought about by progressive and traditional values. I don't think it's a case of preferences, one is better or worse than another, as much as it is in finding that "sweet" spot that is most pertinent in continually changing and dynamic political and social landscapes

Think about why our socio-political landscapes are so dynamic to begin with. We have never had a perfect system to begin with, and that is impossible. There are two logical solutions to this. One would be an almost lazy and submissive one; to revert a "snapshot" of a prior social landscape. This could be interpreted as giving up. Also, it would be unsustainable, as we have never maintained a social situation for more than the lifetime of the average human at any given time.

The second solution would be able to allow this "progress" to continue as it has been, of course in the guidance of intelligent and impartial hands. This would probably find the "sweet spot" spoken of on this thread.

 

[SpaceAgeLove]

Of course it is flawed. Like others have said, there is no such thing as a perfect system. Traditionalism often is striving for an ideal or a skewed perception of the past, not a realistic one. I'm sure many people have a different definition as to what that traditionalism even is, but the common aspects seems to be: gender roles, a shared spirituality of some kind, a higher standard of morals (whatever that may be for the people) and rejection of cultures that are not your own. I think these things are mostly good because it gives a sense of belonging, unity and stability amongst a group of people making them capable of outstanding things if they so wish. One stick can be easily broken, but many sticks bundled together are strong ; ) I think it's something that should be encouraged, but not completely enforced because it's not a lifestyle everyone can adhere to. For example, I'd love to be married and be a housewife but i'm not able to have kids... so, what then? Would a traditionalist society give me the option to join the workforce? Would I be killed off for being useless? Shunned by the community? It could get dark pretty easily depending how enforced traditional values were and what people determine to be "traditional".

@Hammerheart btw, I love your avatar. That was my first Slayer album and it's still one of my favorites.