Is Trump / MAGA / the US Fascist?

[Heyo]

For this debate, I'll use The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003 as a basis. It isn't a definition of fascism, but a collection of characteristics fascist countries had.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
   Trump: yes; MAGA: YES; the US: yes
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
   Trump: partly; MAGA: yes; US: no
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
   Trump: yes; MAGA: yes; US: partly
4. Supremacy of the Military
   Trump: no; MAGA: yes; US: it's complicated
5. Rampant Sexism
   Trump: YES; MAGA: yes; US: no
6. Controlled Mass Media
   Trump: no; MAGA: some (DeSantis); US: NO
7. Obsession with National Security
   Trump: no; MAGA: partly; US: yes
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
   Trump: not really; MAGA: some: US: NO
9. Corporate Power is Protected
   Trump: yes; MAGA: yes; US: yes
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
    Trump: doesn't care; MAGA: yes; US: it's complicated
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
    Trump: doesn't care; MAGA: yes; US: no
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
    Trump: no; MAGA: yes; US: yes
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
    Trump: YES; MAGA: yes; US: it's complicated
14. Fraudulent Elections
    Trump: YES; MAGA: yes; US: no

Trump: 6/14; MAGA: 11/14; US: 4/14

That's how I see it from the outside. Trump has fascist tendencies, and if he wins in November, the US may be on the road to fascism, but he himself is not a fascist.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Obsession with National Security
Trump: no; MAGA: partly; US: yes

I'd put Trump and MAGA down as both "yes." Their obsession with "controlling the borders" and "keeping out illegals" is a sort of obsession with national security (when combined with their scapegoating), even if it doesn't have anything to do with keeping the country secure in a real way.

 

[Heyo]

I'd put Trump and MAGA down as both "yes." Their obsession with "controlling the borders" and "keeping out illegals" is a sort of obsession with national security (when combined with their scapegoating), even if it doesn't have anything to do with keeping the country secure in a real way.

I agree. I didn't put the border into my evaluation, I did evaluate that Trump refused to read security bulletins.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree. I didn't put the border into my evaluation, I did evaluate that Trump refused to read security bulletins.

Sure. He's lazy. He still tries to project an image of being a national protector, though.

 

[Stevicus]

For this debate, I'll use The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003 as a basis. It isn't a definition of fascism, but a collection of characteristics fascist countries had.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
   Trump: yes; MAGA: YES; the US: yes
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
   Trump: partly; MAGA: yes; US: no
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
   Trump: yes; MAGA: yes; US: partly
4. Supremacy of the Military
   Trump: no; MAGA: yes; US: it's complicated
5. Rampant Sexism
   Trump: YES; MAGA: yes; US: no
6. Controlled Mass Media
   Trump: no; MAGA: some (DeSantis); US: NO
7. Obsession with National Security
   Trump: no; MAGA: partly; US: yes
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
   Trump: not really; MAGA: some: US: NO
9. Corporate Power is Protected
   Trump: yes; MAGA: yes; US: yes
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
    Trump: doesn't care; MAGA: yes; US: it's complicated
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
    Trump: doesn't care; MAGA: yes; US: no
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
    Trump: no; MAGA: yes; US: yes
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
    Trump: YES; MAGA: yes; US: it's complicated
14. Fraudulent Elections
    Trump: YES; MAGA: yes; US: no

Trump: 6/14; MAGA: 11/14; US: 4/14

That's how I see it from the outside. Trump has fascist tendencies, and if he wins in November, the US may be on the road to fascism, but he himself is not a fascist.

I tend to agree. If America is on the road to fascism (although here's hoping that we turn in the opposite direction), then Trump may be someone more like Hindenburg. Trump seems more rooted in America's "old order," back in a time when many view America as "great." He seemingly wants to make it like it used to be, which certainly had various fascistic elements, but not necessarily the kind of fascism which existed in Germany or Italy. One can find similarities to America under Andrew Jackson versus Germany under Adolf Hitler, but a lot of differences as well. A case could be made that Andrew Jackson was a fascist, or maybe a proto-fascist, but the term hadn't been invented yet in his time. But he's still on the 20-dollar bill.

 

[Pogo]

I agree. I didn't put the border into my evaluation, I did evaluate that Trump refused to read security bulletins.

Trump is about Trump if it takes a fascist organization to get what he wants then that is what he will do. He is just a cafeteria "ist" .

 

[Regiomontanus]

Loading…

www.cnn.com

That from someone who knows Trump well.

 

[Heyo]

Loading…

www.cnn.com

That from someone who knows Trump well.

That article and the OP that was based on it was the inspiration for this OP.
I'm in no way defending Trump. His is an authoritarian, read and admires Hitler, uses some of his tactics, but he lacks some key characteristics. Stylizing him as the "new Hitler" is pure hyperbole - though he may become an enabler of a more competent fascist from the MAGA crowd.
I agree on the points Kelly brought up, but they are not enough to call him a fascist. Dictatorial, even fascistoid tendencies, yes, a full-grown fascist, no.

 

[Regiomontanus]

That article and the OP that was based on it was the inspiration for this OP.
I'm in no way defending Trump. His is an authoritarian, read and admires Hitler, uses some of his tactics, but he lacks some key characteristics. Stylizing him as the "new Hitler" is pure hyperbole - though he may become an enabler of a more competent fascist from the MAGA crowd.
I agree on the points Kelly brought up, but they are not enough to call him a fascist. Dictatorial, even fascistoid tendencies, yes, a full-grown fascist, no.

I agree. Ultimately, for Trump, it is all about power. He would act any way, say or do anything, to regain power (and so, he hopes, stay out of jail).

 

[We Never Know]

I'd put Trump and MAGA down as both "yes." Their obsession with "controlling the borders" and "keeping out illegals" is a sort of obsession with national security (when combined with their scapegoating), even if it doesn't have anything to do with keeping the country secure in a real way.

Use the door legally.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Use the door legally.


View attachment 99037

FYI: "I agree with Trump" does not imply "Trump is not a fascist."

 

[Valjean]

For this debate, I'll use The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003 as a basis. It isn't a definition of fascism, but a collection of characteristics fascist countries h

1. Controlled Mass Media
   Trump: no; MAGA: some (DeSantis); US: NO

Isn't Trump always denouncing the "radical, left-wing media" for various perceived slights and insistence on fact checking his claims?

1. Obsession with National Security
   Trump: no; MAGA: partly; US: yes

An invasion of criminals? Closing the borders to unpopular religious and ethnic groups?

1. Religion and Government are Intertwined
   Trump: not really; MAGA: some: US: NO

Hasn't Trump allied himself with the religious Right and its dominionist agenda?

1. Corporate Power is Protected
   Trump: yes; MAGA: yes; US: yes
2. Labor Power is Suppressed
   Trump: doesn't care; MAGA: yes; US: it's complicated

Corporate power perceives labor as a business expense in a zero sum game. Trump is a corporatist. He opposes minimum wage gains, workplace health and safety laws, mandatory vacation time, paid sick leave, &al -- all of which labor favors.

1. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
   Trump: doesn't care; MAGA: yes; US: no

Aren't the intellectuals Trump's greatest critics -- and threats? Weren't the intellectuals and political opponents the first demographics to find themselves in Dachau back in '33?

1. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
   Trump: no; MAGA: yes; US: yes

Trump is always calling for political opponents and critics to be "locked up" or prosecuted, is he not?

That's how I see it from the outside. Trump has fascist tendencies, and if he wins in November, the US may be on the road to fascism, but he himself is not a fascist.

It depends how one characterises Fascism. Eco characterised Fascism as "fuzzy" or malleable; defined more by what it does than by what it says. He'd characterise Trump as an ur-Fascist.

Umberto Eco on Donald Trump: 14 Ways of Looking at a Fascist

If your Facebook feed looks anything like mine, the comparisons between Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler appear like surreal dreams, with Trump’s face Photoshopped so he’s standing in front of a…

lithub.com

 

[Valjean]

Fascism manifests in many different forms. It's more political than philosophical.

Trump currently fits some of these. If elected, I expect he'll fit more. Fascism is what Fascism does, not what it says.

Thus far, Trump hasn't allied with corporate power, so not a classical Fascist, at this point. If elected, though, he'll find little monetary profit in his current alliance with the Christian Dominionists. A corporate alliance would be tempting.

 

[Twilight Hue]

For this debate, I'll use The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003 as a basis. It isn't a definition of fascism, but a collection of characteristics fascist countries had.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
   Trump: yes; MAGA: YES; the US: yes
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
   Trump: partly; MAGA: yes; US: no
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
   Trump: yes; MAGA: yes; US: partly
4. Supremacy of the Military
   Trump: no; MAGA: yes; US: it's complicated
5. Rampant Sexism
   Trump: YES; MAGA: yes; US: no
6. Controlled Mass Media
   Trump: no; MAGA: some (DeSantis); US: NO
7. Obsession with National Security
   Trump: no; MAGA: partly; US: yes
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
   Trump: not really; MAGA: some: US: NO
9. Corporate Power is Protected
   Trump: yes; MAGA: yes; US: yes
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
    Trump: doesn't care; MAGA: yes; US: it's complicated
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
    Trump: doesn't care; MAGA: yes; US: no
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
    Trump: no; MAGA: yes; US: yes
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
    Trump: YES; MAGA: yes; US: it's complicated
14. Fraudulent Elections
    Trump: YES; MAGA: yes; US: no

Trump: 6/14; MAGA: 11/14; US: 4/14

That's how I see it from the outside. Trump has fascist tendencies, and if he wins in November, the US may be on the road to fascism, but he himself is not a fascist.

You forgot that he doesn't speak any of his speeches in a military uniform , doesn't have a switch under his arm , and most importantly he has absolutely no mustache or beard that absolutely must be part of the uniform of a fascist!

 

[Pogo]

Isn't Trump always denouncing the "radical, left-wing media" for various perceived slights and insistence on fact checking his claims?

An invasion of criminals? Closing the borders to unpopular religious and ethnic groups?

Hasn't Trump allied himself with the religious Right and its dominionist agenda?

Corporate power perceives labor as a business expense in a zero sum game. Trump is a corporatist. He opposes minimum wage gains, workplace health and safety laws, mandatory vacation time, paid sick leave, &al -- all of which labor favors.

Aren't the intellectuals Trump's greatest critics -- and threats? Weren't the intellectuals and political opponents the first demographics to find themselves in Dachau back in '33?

Trump is always calling for political opponents and critics to be "locked up" or prosecuted, is he not?

It depends how one characterises Fascism. Eco characterised Fascism as "fuzzy" or malleable; defined more by what it does than by what it says. He'd characterise Trump as an ur-Fascist.

Umberto Eco on Donald Trump: 14 Ways of Looking at a Fascist

If your Facebook feed looks anything like mine, the comparisons between Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler appear like surreal dreams, with Trump’s face Photoshopped so he’s standing in front of a…

lithub.com

NY review needs to make this Umberto Eco article open access.

 

[Pogo]

Fascism manifests in many different forms. It's more political than philosophical.

Trump currently fits some of these. If elected, I expect he'll fit more. Fascism is what Fascism does, not what it says.

Thus far, Trump hasn't allied with corporate power, so not a classical Fascist, at this point. If elected, though, he'll find little monetary profit in his current alliance with the Christian Dominionists. A corporate alliance would be tempting.

Associations with Elon Musk and Peter Theil would call that into question. He doesn't do well with rational conservative corporate power as it is trying to figure out how to negotiate climate change, but the blow it up and we will be there to pick up the pieces style of corporate management has found an ally.

 

[Heyo]

Isn't Trump always denouncing the "radical, left-wing media" for various perceived slights and insistence on fact checking his claims?

The fact that the MSM isn't his friend, is an indication that he doesn't control them. And he won't when he wins. The media is controlled by people who are a lot more powerful than him. He doesn't even have control over Fox News.

An invasion of criminals? Closing the borders to unpopular religious and ethnic groups?

Not reading security bulletins, no interest in intelligence or diplomacy. (At least not the day-to-day work.)

Hasn't Trump allied himself with the religious Right and its dominionist agenda?

He has, but the only thing he was interested in was to get their vote. He isn't even personally responsible for the SC Justices, he had that delegated/handed over to the Federalist Society.

Corporate power perceives labor as a business expense in a zero sum game. Trump is a corporatist. He opposes minimum wage gains, workplace health and safety laws, mandatory vacation time, paid sick leave, &al -- all of which labor favors.

He's no friend of workers rights, but he hasn't even commented on most issues, even less pushed for abolishment of labour rights. He's disinterested as long as he isn't directly involved.

Aren't the intellectuals Trump's greatest critics -- and threats? Weren't the intellectuals and political opponents the first demographics to find themselves in Dachau back in '33?

He will be going after his political opponents, he said so, "RINOs" and Democrats. But for him, it's personal, he's not planning a systematic approach.

Trump is always calling for political opponents and critics to be "locked up" or prosecuted, is he not?

Did he even try? He's angry when opposed, and he tries to criminalize minorities, but he's not "tough on crime".

It depends how one characterises Fascism.

That's why I started with the characterization I've used.

 

[Pogo]

You forgot that he doesn't speak any of his speeches in a military uniform , doesn't have a switch under his arm , and most importantly he has absolutely no mustache or beard that absolutely must be part of the uniform of a fascist!

And this is about the best rebuttal I have seen from MAGA. Congratulations for concentrating the irrelevance of MAGA's intellectual capability in one post.

 

[Kathryn]

Fascists are the new communists for some people, I guess.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For this debate, I'll use ...

Why? The approach strikes me as more sophomoric than useful.

Let me as the following:

1. Did yo read the VOX interview of Albright?
2. How do you think you would have answered the questions posed in the OP with regards to Hitler on January 1, 1933?