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Is Unrestricted Competition Anti-Democratic?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
“Coupled with Usury, Unrestricted Competition destroys the small man for the profit of the great and in so doing produces that mass of economically unfree citizens whose very political freedom comes in question because it has no foundation in any economic freedom, that is, any useful proportion of property to support it.” -- Hilaire Belloc: The Crisis of Civilization

Does Belloc have a point? Is unrestricted competition incompatible with democracy and political freedom?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't know how "anti-democratic" applies, but when the results are monopolistic, that would justify efforts to avoid &/or reverse that. Free markets are a great thing.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
“Coupled with Usury, Unrestricted Competition destroys the small man for the profit of the great and in so doing produces that mass of economically unfree citizens whose very political freedom comes in question because it has no foundation in any economic freedom, that is, any useful proportion of property to support it.” -- Hilaire Belloc: The Crisis of Civilization

Does Belloc have a point? Is unrestricted competition incompatible with democracy and political freedom?
And this was discovered by many Europeans in the late 1800's and many Americans in the early-mid 1900's, which is why many "socialistic" programs were eventually put into place on both sides of the pond. Unbridled capitalism is terribly destructive, as Pope Francis has lamented. It's not that competition itself is bad, but like so many other things in life, too much of a good thing can turn out bad.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
I see this as with many things. Balance is key. Clearly our countries founders recognized that and tried to establish the government on that principle.

Competition is good and we need capitalism to drive that engine. But, using the same analogy, we don't want to lose control of the car.

I think it is governments job to keep business in check with antitrust laws and rules that protect the masses from any entities becoming too powerful. Companies and wealthy individuals have gotten out of control at times in the past and there have been necessary corrections.

However, right now I think things have gotten too far out of kilter. I don't know that the government can, or will, take the actions that were overdo before the last financial crisis. As a result, these companies are becoming monstrosities. And the supreme court allowing unrestricted funds into the political process will only make things worse.

We're screwed and but good. (As my grandad used to say.)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I see this as with many things. Balance is key. Clearly our countries founders recognized that and tried to establish the government on that principle.

Competition is good and we need capitalism to drive that engine. But, using the same analogy, we don't want to lose control of the car.

I think it is governments job to keep business in check with antitrust laws and rules that protect the masses from any entities becoming too powerful. Companies and wealthy individuals have gotten out of control at times in the past and there have been necessary corrections.

However, right now I think things have gotten too far out of kilter. I don't know that the government can, or will, take the actions that were overdo before the last financial crisis. As a result, these companies are becoming monstrosities. And the supreme court allowing unrestricted funds into the political process will only make things worse.

We're screwed and but good. (As my grandad used to say.)
Well said, imo, and even some conservative economists are sounding the alarm that this rapid increase in income disparity potentially is very harmful and destabilizing. Greenspan labeled this as the single greatest threat to the country.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Economic Competition in itself can strain the bonds which keep a society together, putting people against one another in a battle of the survival of the fittest. The insecurity and possibly poverty are a recipe for political problems. But by comparison with the political corruption of large corporations have on democratic governments, it is benign if deeply anarchic.

In a centralized system of government, with a decentralization of economic power- the power of government or dictatorships remains very limited as the government doesn't have the means to do much damage. It's only when you get centralized political AND economic power that you get a recipe for totalitarianism. I live in the hope such power could be used for good as technologically we seem to be pushing ourselves more and more in that direction, but as a species we have yet to grow up enough to handle the responsibilities that come with it. till then, competition is preferable but maybe impractical given economies of scale (bigger output means it's cheaper and therefore easier to produce more).
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I think that countries pretty much exist in a state of existential anarchy. At the end of the day, all institutions, and all people use power and apply it against each other in various ways. So the political system of a time and place is really much more fluid. There isn't an example of something you can point to and really be that clear cut on how power is really distributed, or how effectively power can be yielded. And every few decades or so, everyone dies, and everything is acquired by yet another chaotic generation with millions of new individual wills and desires. What comes out is never really what anyone ever intended for it to be.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think that countries pretty much exist in a state of existential anarchy. At the end of the day, all institutions, and all people use power and apply it against each other in various ways. So the political system of a time and place is really much more fluid. There isn't an example of something you can point to and really be that clear cut on how power is really distributed, or how effectively power can be yielded. And every few decades or so, everyone dies, and everything is acquired by yet another chaotic generation with millions of new individual wills and desires. What comes out is never really what anyone ever intended for it to be.

This very much depends on how far a society is driven by competition. Whilst Capitalism can certainly look like anarchy, there is a method in the madness. People are organized on a social basis via a medium of exchange, the market. Human beings can't survive on their own for very long and have to work together. the social element of working in large scale mass production conflicts with the competition based on private property and markets and this produces it's share of crisis making the system inherently dysfunctional, but it can be stable for quite long periods.
Generally, The more perfect a capitalist society is, the more destructive it can be to this underlying social fabric. it's not absolute though as human beings can adapt to quite a large degree, but they need some social support to fall back on. The social nature of production means there is an element of order in the chaos and you get a process of "creative destruction" as each new wave of technological development, or transfer of the control of production from one generation to the next takes place.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This very much depends on how far a society is driven by competition. Whilst Capitalism can certainly look like anarchy, there is a method in the madness. People are organized on a social basis via a medium of exchange, the market. Human beings can't survive on their own for very long and have to work together. the social element of working in large scale mass production conflicts with the competition based on private property and markets and this produces it's share of crisis making the system inherently dysfunctional, but it can be stable for quite long periods.
Generally, The more perfect a capitalist society is, the more destructive it can be to this underlying social fabric. it's not absolute though as human beings can adapt to quite a large degree, but they need some social support to fall back on. The social nature of production means there is an element of order in the chaos and you get a process of "creative destruction" as each new wave of technological development, or transfer of the control of production from one generation to the next takes place.
For a commie, you're pretty observant!
 

dust1n

Zindīq
This very much depends on how far a society is driven by competition. Whilst Capitalism can certainly look like anarchy, there is a method in the madness. People are organized on a social basis via a medium of exchange, the market. Human beings can't survive on their own for very long and have to work together. the social element of working in large scale mass production conflicts with the competition based on private property and markets and this produces it's share of crisis making the system inherently dysfunctional, but it can be stable for quite long periods.

Sure, but long periods of stability in a market are established essentially by force and power. Even within these long-lasting institutions are the workings of millions individuals seeking whatever it is they are seeking. Whatever pops out of chaotic anarchy doesn't change that these institution are propped out of madness and power, and that they will fall to same thing eventually.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sure, but long periods of stability in a market are established essentially by force and power. Even within these long-lasting institutions are the workings of millions individuals seeking whatever it is they are seeking. Whatever pops out of chaotic anarchy doesn't change that these institution are propped out of madness and power, and that they will fall to same thing eventually.

I think you are right to characterize capitalism as insane; The environmentalists have basically got it right in so far as you have an economic system which pursues unlimited growth and self-interest as the realization of human freedom, whilst living on a planet that has finite resources. Technology means these limits are no absolute, but there are still there.
In the 18th and 19th century the idea that man could satisfy unlimited wants was still relatively rational because our scientific, technological and economic powers were still quite limited and the number of people who could be 'rich' was quite small. By the 20th and 21st Centuries, long periods of economic growth have meant that we now have massive powers of production, and an even larger global population, with even more people expecting to satisfy unlimited wants as the realization of "human nature". But at the same time we have drastically increased the pressure we put on the planet from the amount of resources we consume and waste.
This is undoubtedly environmentally unsustainable and insane; capitalism cannot go on forever, at least in it's current neo-liberal form. We are at risk of a very drastic deterioration in the ecological life support systems which we rely on so something will have to change. I'd prefer the easier path but I doubt the sanity of the system to see how delusional the desire for infinite growth is. What is more difficult is that because our conception of human nature as selfish is so closely tied to how we define freedom, such a change would necessitate a very deep change in how we understand not only our relationship with the planet and with other people, but also ourselves.

I am more skeptical as to whether you can say this system is propped exclusively or even primarily up by power. As I said capitalism remains a social system, based on the social organization of production and co-operative labor. Mass production is only possible with the co-operation of people on a very large scale, even if the mass consumption that results makes our species look deeply selfish. Whilst on the surface we think that people do this on a wholly voluntary basis out of self-interest, it is near impossible for human beings to live any other way than in a co-operative system of organization as basically we'd starve.
Ultimately, capitalism is therefore based on an illusion of control as the anarchy of competition works against the ability of individuals to have power in the system. In a way, our current conception of individuality is an illusion based on private property because we conceive of individuality and society as irreconcilably opposed; our loss is there gain- and that only makes sense when private property is involved and we work against each other rather than together. Of course, the major criticism of other economic systems is precisely that control is not an illusion but is very real as a totalitarian system that it subjugates people under a collectivism. So I don't think the collapse of the system is very likely because it is not based purely on individual consent, but the longer the system goes unreformed, the more likely it is that we end up with a potentially 'totalitarian' system of sorts as economic necessity means we fall back on our social nature.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I think you are right to characterize capitalism as insane...

I don't necessarily disagree with any of your points, but I'm not sure how it all relates. As far as workers cooperating in some sort of economic system, this has always been an afterthought to the foundational chaos for which human conditions arise. I expect long periods of stability in various forums, but I expect this to arise out of an existential chaos.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't necessarily disagree with any of your points, but I'm not sure how it all relates. As far as workers cooperating in some sort of economic system, this has always been an afterthought to the foundational chaos for which human conditions arise. I expect long periods of stability in various forums, but I expect this to arise out of an existential chaos.

I'm of the opinion it's the other-way round; the co-operation is normal, whereas the chaos of capitalism is specific to this era in history. Hence why we reach different conclusions; because you favor chaos, you think it will go back to chaos; because I think it's co-operation, it will go back to co-operation. that's what I was getting at.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
“Coupled with Usury, Unrestricted Competition destroys the small man for the profit of the great and in so doing produces that mass of economically unfree citizens whose very political freedom comes in question because it has no foundation in any economic freedom, that is, any useful proportion of property to support it.” -- Hilaire Belloc: The Crisis of Civilization

Does Belloc have a point? Is unrestricted competition incompatible with democracy and political freedom?

This is a false cause fallacy. Unrestricted competition is inherently democratic and free. But there comes a point where monopolisation by particular corporations becomes widespread. However, in response to the question: correlation does not imply causation.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
This is a false cause fallacy. Unrestricted competition is inherently democratic and free. But there comes a point where monopolisation by particular corporations becomes widespread. However, in response to the question: correlation does not imply causation.

Gross ignorance of economics does not imply knowledge of it, either.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I'm of the opinion it's the other-way round; the co-operation is normal, whereas the chaos of capitalism is specific to this era in history. Hence why we reach different conclusions; because you favor chaos, you think it will go back to chaos; because I think it's co-operation, it will go back to co-operation. that's what I was getting at.

I'm don't see anything less chaotic regarding cooperation than I do competition, and I'm not aware how either can do back to chaos, since nature is chaotic, and nature has never ceased existing.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm don't see anything less chaotic regarding cooperation than I do competition, and I'm not aware how either can do back to chaos, since nature is chaotic, and nature has never ceased existing.
Systems may be chaotic & simultaneously ordered.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is a false cause fallacy. Unrestricted competition is inherently democratic and free. But there comes a point where monopolisation by particular corporations becomes widespread. However, in response to the question: correlation does not imply causation.

Competition creates a decentralization of economic power which makes it easier for people to be free as individuals; but only in so far as they own property and therefore have the means to exercise those rights. Being legally free and actually free are two difference things. if you don't have the money, capitalism is as oppressive as any totalitarian system because it denies you the means to live on your own terms (and sometimes at all).

It will sound perverse by today's standards, but Communists argued that planning would makes people free because they'd have access to the resources to freely develop their talents. this would only work if it was de-centralised pattern of control- so it faces similar problems.

I'm don't see anything less chaotic regarding cooperation than I do competition, and I'm not aware how either can do back to chaos, since nature is chaotic, and nature has never ceased existing.

Systems may be chaotic & simultaneously ordered.

Revoltingest got it in one. :thumbsup: the issue isn't whether capitalism is chaotic or ordered, but which one takes precedence in determining the ultimate outcome when the system is in crisis.
 
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