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Isaac almost sacrificed not Ishmael, how do we know for sure?

Shibboleth

New Member
Question: For such an historical event does the Quran mention Ishmael as the one that was going to be sacrificed?
Your scriptural proof­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­ here______________________
Fact: Even the Qur’an, speaks of Abraham who would “offer a sacrifice.” Sura 37:101, 102
Fact: The Holy Scriptures clearly says the covenant is with Isaac. Geneses 17:18 To this God said: “Sarah your wife is indeed bearing you a son, and you must call his name Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for a covenant to time indefinite to his seed after him
Fact: The Holy Scriptures clearly states that Isaac would be the one sacrificed. Geneses 22:2 And he went on to say: “Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac,
Some may argue if this is the case what aboutDeuteronomy 21:15-17, that is a clear contradiction. So, Ishmael must be the first born as stated by the bible and his rights cannot be taken away as says the bible.
Contradiction, no, interpretation, yes! “However, when the full facts are brought to light even the seeming contradiction itself disappears.”
Fact: In Israel the father could transfer the birthright if he had a good reason, giving the firstborn’s inheritance to a younger son.
Scriptural Proof: Deuteronomy 49:3,4 “Reu′ben, you are my firstborn, my vigor and the beginning of my generative power, the excellence of dignity and the excellence of strength. 4 With reckless license like waters, do not you excel, because you have gone up to your father’s bed. At that time you profaned my lounge.
In the instances of this noted in the Bible, it was not through whim or favoritism, but there was a basis on which the father determined to make the change in the birthright inheritance. Ishmael, as Abraham’s oldest son, was prospective heir for about 14 years.
Scriptural Proof:Geneses 16:16; 17:18-21; 21:5 But at Sarah’s request and with God’s approval, Abraham dismissed Ishmael, then about 19 years of age. Isaac then possessed the firstborn’s right and later received everything that Abraham had, with the exception of gifts that Abraham gave to sons later born to him by Keturah. Reuben the firstborn of Jacob lost his birthright inheritance by reason of fornication with his father’s concubine. (Geneses 49:3, 4; 1Ch 5:1, 2) Jacob gave the greater blessing to Ephraim, Joseph’s younger son, rather than to Manasseh, the older.—Geneses 48:13-19.
Now, on the matter of “only son”, it is noteworthy that Isaac was an “only son” in a double sense. He was the only son of Abraham’s wife Sarah (and the only son remaining in Abraham’s household at the time that God spoke the words found at Genesis 22:1, 2. Qur’an translator Ali admits that “Muslim tradition . . . is not unanimous on this point.” Some Moslem writers agree with the Biblical account that Isaac was the prospective sacrifice.
Question: If this account is corrupt as some may wish to believe, then what proof do the Muslim communities have of the original text of what it should read? From what I see everyone seems to be open minded. But to present something as fact without proof or solid evidence is just a theory.
Your scriptural proof­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­ here______________________
If you have no proof it can’t be truth!
In order to understand and accept this event one must leave personal opinion and emotional feelings out and believe in God’s inspired word not bits and pieces of it.
Example, either you accept the WHOLE book of Geneses or you do not accept the book of Geneses at all. To pick and choose truth to our liken is truly the nature of man but not of God.

There are two very, very, very important questions one must ask and know to understand this whole historical and Biblical event of Isaac and Ishmael.
1) Why sacrifice Isaac, Sarah’s “only son” that was promise to her?
2) Why dismiss Hagar and Ishmael from Abraham’s household?
3) Why does Prophet Muhammad’s Quran undermine the previous Scriptures?
First Answer:Geneses 22:18 BY MEANS of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves.” The Qur’an refers many times to Bible incidents and characters. In fact, its recognition of Abraham, Ishmael, Moses, Jesus and others comes from the Holy Scriptures (Bible) which was completed nearly 600 years before the beginning of the Mohammedan era. Therefore, what is the Bible’s view? Did God purpose to bless all mankind through the line of Ishmael? Geneses 21:12 tells you…
Second Answer: Hagar began despising Abraham’s wife Sarah, Geneses 16:4!Geneses 21:9 says that Ishmael as a big brother was taunting/persecuting Isaac his much younger brother, it was with malicious intent! Look at what one inspired Bible writer had to say about that event, Galatians 4:29….
So, ridicule and verbal attacks can legitimately be called persecution. In fact, according to Geneses 16:12, this persecution would come right back to Ishmael and his descendants “His hand will be against everyone, and the hand of everyone will be against him…Would this have to do with the Middle Eastern conflict? Let the reader discern.
Did Allah or God, Muhammad or Abraham disagree with them being dismissed? No.
Scriptural Proof: Geneses 21:12 & 16:6 Allah/God told Abraham to listen to his wife.
“Then God said to Abraham: “Do not let anything that Sarah keeps saying to you be displeasing to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be.”
Third Answer: To accept the covenant being threw Isaac would mean to accept Jesus as the “Promise seed” of Abraham and to eventually put Muhammad and his Quran on the back burner.

**If you disagree, please state your case with scriptural proof not with secular links, videos or opinions, I rather talk with you than a recording. If your belief can’t be proven within your own Holy book it’s undoubtedly questionable**

“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
 
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Bowman

Active Member
Isaac all the way...even in the Koran...


12.5

Genesis…Joseph’s dream…



نحن نقص عليك أحسن القصص بما أوحينا


إليك هذا القرءان وإن كنت من قبله لمن الغفلين


إذ قال يوسف لأبيه يأبت إني رأيت أحد عشر


كوكبا والشمس والقمر رأيتهم لي سجدين قال يبني لا تقصص رءياك على إخوتك فيكيدوا لك كيدا إن الشيطن للإنسن عدو مبين وكذلك يجتبيك ربك ويعلمك من تأويل الأحاديث ويتم نعمته عليك وعلى ءال يعقوب كما أتمها على أبويك من قبل إبرهيم وإسحق إن ربك عليم حكيم

Nahnu naqussu AAalayka ahsana alqasasi bima awhayna ilayka hatha alqur-ana wa-in kunta min qablihi lamina alghafileena iIth qala yoosufu li-abeehi ya abati innee raaytu ahada AAashara kawkaban waalshshamsa waalqamara raaytuhum lee sajideena qala ya bunayya la taqsus ru/yaka AAala ikhwatika fayakeedoo laka kaydan inna alshshaytana lil-insani AAaduwwun mubeenun wakathalika yajtabeeka rabbuka wayuAAallimuka min ta/weeli al-ahadeethi wayutimmu niAAmatahu AAalayka waAAala ali yaAAqooba kama atammaha AAala abawayka min qablu ibraheema wa-ishaqa inna rabbaka AAaleemun hakeemun

We, we relate on you, he did the narrative excellently, with what we revealed to you, this, The Collection, and truly you were from before it from the unmindful ones. When Joseph said to his father: "O! My dear father that I, I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon, I saw them those who prostrate themselves to me." Say: "O! My dear son, relate not your dream to your brothers, so they devise to you an artful device, truly the devil to mankind is a clear enemy And likewise, your Lord, He chooses you and He teaches you by explanation, the narratives, and completes His blessing on you, and on Jacob's (Israel) people, just as He completed it on your fathers from before, Abraham and Isaac, truly your Lord who knows, wise. (12.3 – 6)


This first instance of “kayda”, outside of sura 86, is in the heart of paraphrased Biblical Genesis material (i.e. referred to here as “the narrative”), and confirms what is already readily apparent, i.e. that the Koran (the collection) is merely reformatted Biblical material.

These ayahs recall Jacob’s (Israel) son, Joseph, and his “eleven star” dream in which his brothers devise an artful device (kaydan) against him.

Here, we are told that “kaydan” emanates from many, and is directed towards a singular, male son and the people that he represents.

“Kaydan” is said to represent an instigation by the devil (the enemy), against mankind.


These ayahs pertain to the lineage of Isaac/Israel.

Further, these ayahs confirm that the Lord’s blessing is completed through Israel’s people.




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21.70


Genesis…Abraham…Isaac…Israel…



قلنا ينار كوني بردا وسلما على إبرهيم وأرادوا به كيدا فجعلنهم الأخسرين ونجينه ولوطا إلى الأرض التي بركنا فيها للعلمين ووهبنا له إسحق ويعقوب نافلة وكلا جعلنا صلحين

Qulna ya naru koonee bardan wasalaman AAala ibraheema waaradoo bihi kaydan fajaAAalnahumu al-akhsareena wanajjaynahu walootan ila al-ardi allatee barakna feeha lilAAalameena wawahabna lahu ishaqa wayaAAqooba nafilatan wakullan jaAAalna saliheena

You say: "O! Fire, be you of coolness and peace always on Abraham." And they intended with him an artful device, so we made them the worst lowers. And we delivered him and Lot to the earth which we blessed in it to the jinn and mankind. And truly we granted to him, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) a voluntary gift, and each we made good and righteous ones. (21.69 – 72)


This second instance of “kayda”, outside of sura 86, is once again in the heart of paraphrased Biblical Genesis material.

Here again, we are told that “kaydan” emanates from many, and is directed towards a singular male and the people that he represents.

“Kaydan” also promotes Abraham as righteous and the ones opposing him as unrighteous.

A righteous male.

These ayahs pertain to the lineage of Isaac/Israel.

Further, these ayahs confirm that Isaac & Israel are good and righteous gifts.




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37.98


Genesis…Abraham…sacrificial son Isaac…




قالوا ابنوا له بنينا فألقوه في الجحيم فأرادوا به كيدافجعلنهم الأسفلين وقال إني ذاهب إلى ربي سيهدين رب هب لي من الصلحين فبشرنه بغلم حليم فلما بلغ معه السعي قال يبني إني أرى في المنام أني أذبحك فانظر ماذا ترى قال يأبت افعل ما تؤمر ستجدني إن شاء الله من الصبرين


Qaloo ibnoo lahu bunyanan faalqoohu fee aljaheemi faaradoo bihi kaydan fajaAAalnahumu al-asfaleena waqala innee thahibun ila rabbee sayahdeeni rabbi hab lee mina alssaliheena fabashsharnahu bighulamin haleemin falamma balagha maAAahu alssaAAya qala ya bunayya innee ara fee almanami annee athbahuka faonthur matha tara qala ya abati ifAAal ma tu/maru satajidunee in shaa Allahu mina alssabireena

They said: "Truly you built his structure, so cast him in the blazing fire.” So they intended an artful device with him, so we made them the most humiliated. And said: "That I am going to my Lord, he will guide me." "Lord bestow (for) me from the good and righteous one." So we gave good tidings to him with a forbearing son. So when he reached the endeavor with him, Say: "O! My dear son, "That I, I see in the dreaming that I, I am slaughtering you, so look and consider what you see" Say: "O! My dear father, you do what you are commanded, so you will find me, if “allah” he willed from the patient." (37.97 – 102)


This third instance of “kayda”, outside of sura 86, is again in the heart of paraphrased Biblical Genesis material.

In this instance, we have the story of Abraham as he is about to sacrifice his son Isaac to Yahweh, only this time around the authors of the Koran attempted to raise and insert the pagan Arab god “allah” in lieu of the true creator God Yahweh.

Just as in the context of 21.70, we understand that Isaac was ranked as a “good and righteous one” – as we again are told this of his son.


These ayahs pertain to the lineage of Isaac/Israel.

Further, these ayahs confirm that Isaac was the son that Abraham offered, not Ishmael as Muslims would have us believe.
 
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