Isaiah 53:8

[Tumah]

The idea of Isaiah 53 as a reference to Israel has long been a part of traditional Jewish belief. Some commentators point out that although the chapter is written in the singular form, there is one word that is switched to the plural. This is not the only instance where the singular and plural is used interchangeably with regards to Israel:

Ex. 19:2 "And they traveled (VaYiS'U) from Refidim and they came (VaYaVo'U) to the desert of Sinai and they camped (VaYaCHaNU) in the desert; and Israel camped (VaYiCHaN -singular tense) opposite the mountain.

It's really only two Hebrew words that have been giving us trouble. The words are "נגע למו". For the sake of clarity I'll bring the last four words with the common Christian translation:
מפשע עמי נגע למו
for the transgression of my people was he stricken - KJV
for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due - ASV

It is less clear to me how the ASV arrived at this translation. None of the Hebrew words in the text translate to "was due".

I understand that the KJV holds a special place in the Christian world, so I'll place my questions on that translation.

1) The word "נגע" has two translations: "plague"and "touch". The word for "strike" is actually found just four verses earlier in 53:4 that is "מכה" meaning "stricken"
2) The word "נגע" is a noun, not a verb.
3) The word "למו" doesn't seem to be translated in this verse.

From what I've seen, many Christian translators either ignore the word "למו" or translate it as "to him". I have been trying to determine on what basis this latter translation is made.

The following verses translate the word "למו" as "to them" (or third person, plural, masc.). I've tried to find every instance of the word and explain to what plural entity it is referring to. You will find that either the verse explicitly refers to more than one individual, or the gist is a reference to a plural.

Genesis 9:26-27 "עבד למו" that is, a slave to their respective descendants
Deuteronomy 32:32 "אשכלת מררת למו" that is, to the enemies
Deuteronomy 32:35 "וחש עתידת למו" that is, of the enemies
Deuteronomy 33:2 "וזרח משעיר למו" that is, to Israel
Deuteronomy 33:2 "אשדת למו" that is, to Israel
Lamentations 1:19 "בקשו אכל למו" that is, the lovers, elders and priests
Lamentations 1:22 "ועולל למו" that is, Zion's enemies
Psalms 2:4 "ילעג למו" that is, at the kings and rulers
Psalms 28:8 "עז למו" that is, to the people
Psalms 55:20 "אין חליפות למו" that is, those that strove with David
Psalms 56:8 "על און פלט למו" that is, those that do evil to David
Psalms 59:9 "ותשחק למו" that is, the traitors
Psalms 58:5 "חמת למו" that is, of the wicked
Psalms 58:8 "יתהלכו למו" that is, the water (a plural word in Hebrew)
Psalms 64:6 "יחזקו למו" that is, the evil doers
Psalms 64:6 "מי יראה למו" that is, the traps
Psalms 73:6 "חמס למו" that is, the wicked
Psalms 73:10 "ימצו למו" that is, the wicked
Psalms 73:18 "תשית למו" that is, the wicked
Psalms 78:24 "נתן למו" that is, Israel
Psalms 78:66 "נתן למו" that is, the adversaries
Psalms 80:7 "ילעגו למו" that is, the enemies
Psalms 88:9 "שתני תועבות למו" that is, the acquaintances
Psalms 119:165 "ואין למו מכשול" that is, the lovers of the Law
Isaiah 16:4 "הוי סתר למו" that is, the outcasts
Isaiah 26:14 "ותאבד כל זכר למו" that is, the dead
Isaiah 26:16 "מוסרך למו" that is, the nations at all ends of the land
Isaiah 35:8 "והוא למו" that is, the travelers
Isaiah 43:8 "ואזנים למו" that is, the deaf ones
Isaiah 44:7 "יגידו למו" that is, the eternal people
Isaiah 44:15 "ויסגד למו" that is, the gods and images
Job 3:14 "הבנים חרבות למו" that is, the kings and counselors
Job 6:19 "קוו למו" that is, the ice and snow
Job 14:21 "ולא יבין למו" that is, the sons
Job 15:28 "לא ישבו למו" that is, the houses
Job 22:17 "ומה יפעל ש-די למו" that is, the wicked men
Job 22:19 "ילעג למו" that is, the wicked
Job 24:16 "יומם חתמו למו" that is, the rebels
Job 24:17 "בקר למו צלמות" that is, the rebels
Job 39:4 "ולא שבו למו" that is, the wild goats and deer
Proverbs 23:20 "בזללי בשר למו" that is, the gluttons

In the following four cases, the word "למו" is translated as "אל" or "to":
Job 27:14 "למו חרב" that is, "to the sword"
Job 29:21 "וידמו למו עצתי" that is, "to my counsel"
Job 38:40 "ישבו בסכה למו ארב" that is, "to wait"
Job 40:4 "ידי שמתי למו פי" that is, "to my mouth"

However, it is worthwhile to note that the former examples of the word "למו" is spelled with a kamatz -"לָמוֹ" while these latter examples are spelled with a sh'va -"לְמוֹ". The word in Isaiah 53:8 is spelled with a kamatz.

In my research, I've come across the Orthodox Jewish Bible (a Messianic Bible- yes, that's right, not that I would ever{/I] accuse them of purposely trying to be misleading...) that attempts to translate the word "למו" as "to him" based on the "מו" suffix using the following verses:
Psalms 11:7 "פנימו" meaning "His face"
Job 22:2 "עלימו" meaning "to him"

In both those cases, it can easily be said that the intent of the verse was on the plural: Psalms can be read to say that the "faces of the righteous see the straight" meaning the righteous act straight, not crooked. Job can (and probably should) be understood that the 'man' in the beginning of the verse is "Mankind" not just one individual. So still in both cases, the case for the singular is not empirical.

Compare those two words with the possible to these words:
Deuteronomy 32:32 "ענבמו" -"their grapes"
Psalms 2:5 "יבהלמו" - "frighten them"
Psalms 73:5 "אינמו" "they are not"
Psalms 73:7 "עינמו" "their eyes"

It is harder to find a word by a suffix and these are the only examples I've come across.

Based on these facts, it is difficult to understand how the Christian translators arrived at the translation they did for this verse. Do you perhaps have any explanation for it?

 

[Sees]

Even when I was a Christian, I didn't feel certain Isaiah 53 was a prophecy for Jesus as the rest didn't make sense.


"9 And they made his grave with the wicked
****and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
****and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand."

Would it mean Jesus would have children and old age?

 

[Flankerl]

I understand that the KJV holds a special place in the Christian world, so I'll place my questions on that translation.

Thats not true. It just seems that way because most of the internet is anglophone.

Just sayin.

 

[savagewind]

Even when I was a Christian, I didn't feel certain Isaiah 53 was a prophecy for Jesus as the rest didn't make sense.


"9 And they made his grave with the wicked
****and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
****and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand."

Would it mean Jesus would have children and old age?

I do not know Isaiah but I know Jesus. If verse ten is about Jesus himself it does not mean fathering children. It means (it might mean) the seeds he spoke about.
John 12:24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

Also, readers of it are aware Jesus is to rule for a finite period of time. Some have called it a thousand years. And the rule shall be handed back to The One from whom it came. Prolonged days does not mean old age.

Habakkuk 2:3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.

 

[Tumah]

I do not know Isaiah but I know Jesus. If verse ten is about Jesus himself it does not mean fathering children. It means (it might mean) the seeds he spoke about.
John 12:24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

Can you clarify?

Also, readers of it are aware Jesus is to rule for a finite period of time. Some have called it a thousand years. And the rule shall be handed back to The One from whom it came. Prolonged days does not mean old age.

Is that true?

Deut. 5:15 "Honor your father and your mother as G-d has commanded you, in order that your days be prolonged...

Eccl. 8:13 "And it will not be good for the wicked and he will not have prolonged days as a a shadow...

Habakkuk 2:3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.

I didn't catch the relevance of this verse to the above mentioned points.

 

[savagewind]

Can you clarify?

Seeds of a plant spring off the plant to make another plant. To me it means I am Jesus' offspring but not a biological one. It is written Jesus is a model to follow closely. Whenever someone chooses that way they become his offspring.

Is that true?

Deut. 5:15 "Honor your father and your mother as G-d has commanded you, in order that your days be prolonged...

Eccl. 8:13 "And it will not be good for the wicked and he will not have prolonged days as a a shadow...

I don't know. I know God is a Spirit. Jesus said this generation would not pass away untill all things take place. Whatever has not yet taken place is prolonging the generation. I know what generation means.

I didn't catch the relevance of this verse to the above mentioned points.

If something seems to be lingering, the waiting time seems to have been prolonged. Doesn't it?

 

[Tumah]

Seeds of a plant spring off the plant to make another plant. To me it means I am Jesus' offspring but not a biological one. It is written Jesus is a model to follow closely. Whenever someone chooses that way they become his offspring.

The analogy doesn't make sense to me. I would call the seeds that spring off another plant its biological seed.

I don't know. I know God is a Spirit. Jesus said this generation would not pass away untill all things take place. Whatever has not yet taken place is prolonging the generation. I know what generation means.

So you are saying, ultimately you don't need to prove your translation is accurate so long as it fits your ideology. Is that correct?

If something seems to be lingering, the waiting time seems to have been prolonged. Doesn't it?

Yes it does. Unless the later time was the original, intended time. Then it is not prolonged, it is on time.

 

[savagewind]

The analogy doesn't make sense to me. I [U}would[/U] call the seeds that spring off another plant its biological seed.

You seem to me to not be able to understand illustrations of spiritual realities. Which means to me you are carnal.

So you are saying, ultimately you don't need to prove your translation is accurate so long as it fits your ideology. Is that correct?

I don't know what this means.

Yes it does. Unless the later time was the original, intended time. Then it is not prolonged, it is on time.

Right. It will be on time.

 

[Tumah]

You seem to me to not be able to understand illustrations of spiritual realities. Which means to me you are carnal.

An ad hominem attack will definitely make you more right.
What I am saying is that your illustration is wrong and you need to prove that following someone's model makes you their spiritual seed. Please bring a verse from Scriptures defends your statement.

I don't know what this means.

This means, that you are claiming that "prolonging days" is a reference to something not having yet taken place, without proving that that phrase can mean this thing.

 

[savagewind]

An ad hominem attack will definitely make you more right.
What I am saying is that your illustration is wrong and you need to prove that following someone's model makes you their spiritual seed. Please bring a verse from Scriptures defends your statement.

If "carnal" is an insult and most people are, then what hope is there for the World, do you think?

This means, that you are claiming that "prolonging days" is a reference to something not having yet taken place, without proving that that phrase can mean this thing.

Proof? What kind of proof? Scriptural, like The Bible? LOL !

You want for me to waste my time today? Why, I wonder?

 

[Tumah]

If "carnal" is an insult and most people are, then what hope is there for the World, do you think?



Proof? What kind of proof? Scriptural, like The Bible? LOL !

You want for me to waste my time today? Why, I wonder?

I'm confused. You came to this thread in the debate DIR without the expectation of being challenged?

 

[savagewind]

I'm confused. You came to this thread in the debate DIR without the expectation of being challenged?

Uh...I don't know. I have Christian scriptures. Interested? I do know it isn't a DIR.

 

[Tumah]

Uh...I don't know. I have Christian scriptures. Interested?

Do you think that quoting Christian Bible would be an effective way of proving that the subject of the verse in Scriptures is who the Christian Bible says it is or do you think that might lead to circular reasoning?

I do know it isn't a DIR.

I was under the impression that DIR stands for directory. Is that not correct?

 

[savagewind]

I was under the impression that DIR stands for directory. Is that not correct?

DIR Discuss Individual Religions

 

[savagewind]

Do you think that quoting Christian Bible would be an effective way of proving that the subject of the verse in Scriptures is who the Christian Bible says it is or do you think that might lead to circular reasoning?

Most everything leads to circular reasoning so yes, quoting scripture will lead to it. That is why I tread the way I do.

 

[Tumah]

DIR Discuss Individual Religions

I see. So this is not the Religious Debate DIR. Its the Religious Debate dir.

 

[Tumah]

Most everything leads to circular reasoning so yes, quoting scripture will lead to it. That is why I tread the way I do.

Well, I'm not sure that has been my experience, but I hear you.

 

[savagewind]

Israel was for doing the will of God. Correct?

I am a Christian so I believe Christ did the will of God that was for him to do. The opposite of that is carnal. Everyone is carnal until they aren't anymore because they forsake it. Why do they forsake it? They seek to do the will of The Father God. When they do that they become God's children. This is where it gets confusing. We who do the will of God are not Christ's children we are brothers to him. We are offspring for God. We are offspring for God only by means of him who is being spoken about in Isaiah. That is conjecture. The children of the world die. The children of God do not die. We live through The Son of God. In that way we are his offspring. Without him our spiritual nature (which is against the carnal nature) does not exist.

 

[savagewind]

I see. So this is not the Religious Debate DIR. Its the Religious Debate dir.

If you say so.

 

[Tumah]

Israel was for doing the will of God. Correct?

Yes. Although I'm not sure specifically about what you're referring to.

I am a Christian so I believe Christ did the will of God that was for him to do. The opposite of that is carnal. Everyone is carnal until they aren't anymore because they forsake it. Why do they forsake it? They seek to do the will of The Father God. When they do that they become God's children. This is where it gets confusing. We who do the will of God are not Christ's children we are brothers to him. We are offspring for God. We are offspring for God only by means of him who is being spoken about in Isaiah. That is conjecture. The children of the world die. The children of God do not die. We live through The Son of God. In that way we are his offspring. Without him our spiritual nature (which is against the carnal nature) does not exist.

I understand what you are saying. It's not so complicated. The question is, as understandable as this idea is, can it be substantiated by Scriptures.

So I did a quick google of the Hebrew word being used here to find all the times that word comes up. There are a number of instances in Genesis a couple in Leviticus, a few in Deuteronomy, a bunch in Isaiah, one in Jeremiah and Ecclesiastes, and a number in Psalms.

I could not find any instance where it was used in the metaphorical sense. It was either referring to the seeds of plants, grains or children of people. On the other hand, the word "son/s" is used a number of times in the metaphorical sense. The obvious conclusion is that when Scriptures wants to speak metaphorically, it uses the word "son/s" and when it means biological progeny, it uses the word "seed".