Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[rosends]

the wages of sin is DEATH. so what other sacrifice is needed?

101G.

Seriously? Have you not studied the texts? Introduction to Korbanot (Sacrifices) - Hadran

 

[dybmh]

In this case it is probably natural to divide the concepts and divide the Messiah into different persons when the reality is that Jesus is all 3.

Jesus was never a priest by Malchi-tzedek's decree. People see the word "order" but that is not a group. It's a command. That's the first of several misunderstandings.

In Acts 15 we see that God has given salvation to the Gentiles who repent and turn to Him through Jesus, but some of the Jewish Christians want the Gentiles also to be compelled to be circumcised and obey the Law.​

For the sake of their scruples and Gentile Christians mixing with Jewish Christians as they should, it was decided that the Gentiles should be told to do those things that Gentiles were to do when they become Jews.

Nope. The non-Jews were given an abridged version of the Noahide law. And then in the next chapter Paul performs a circumcision. That means in chapter 15 a different set of laws were given to the non-Jews, and in 16 the Mosaic law is confirmed.

I am not a Levi or and Israelite in the flesh but probably not all Israelites in the flesh are Israelites by faith and I see myself as being a descendant of Abraham through faith.

There is nothing wrong calling yourself a descendant of Abraham. But you still have not renounced the delusion of "Spiritual Israel".

Most everyone has beliefs that are incorrect and all these will be corrected. I think that those who work deceit and who tell lies in the Psalm could be referring to those who are purposefully being deceitful and lying.

That means that the covenant in Jeremiah has not happened. You said that in this covenant people will know what God wants and doesn't want. But here you are saying that people still have incorrect beliefs. The Christian "New Covenant" isn't working.

So does God make the servant's life an atonement for sin at Isa 53:10 or not?

Nope, not the servant's life.

Are you saying that the one who is a priest forever in the line of Melchizedek (Psalm 110) has to be a Levitical priest?

No. First of all the Psalms doesn't speak of Malchi-Tzedek's "line", it speaks of a "decree". Second, the Levitical priesthood hadn't been established in the time of Malchi-Tzedek. Like I said, multiple concepts are being smooshed together.

Does that mean that Christian translations are wrong?
The Tanach at the web site below has similar to a Christian translation.

This is what I go by: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15984/jewish/Chapter-53.htm

​

And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.​

​

You can't go wrong with a Chabad translation, imo. I don't know any Jew who will object to it.

The Tanakh [Full Text]

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The JPS is based on the KJV. So, no, not ideal.

No.

OK! So, really you wouldn't know if what happened in the gospels is a legal effective guilt offering or not.

Maybe you are just making the expectations higher than verse 7 tells us. He was silent before those who killed Him, like a sheep before it's shearers is silent.

I have high standards.

You want the servant to be the nation Israel but when it suits (eg the servant of Isa 49 who is said to be Isaiah) it is fine if the servant is not the nation Israel.

The servant IS Israel in context. When the verses are looked at in isolation as a hidden prophecy, it could be a person.

You can say "flip-flop" but in normal speech metaphors are used amongst the literal.

This isn't normal speech. Normal speech includes context. This is being taken out of context. Hidden prophecies rely on hyper-literal interpretation. Otherwise, anyone can make anything say whatever they want.

Poetically yes and no. I see myself as the child of Jesus, the one who gives me eternal life, so a literal child but just not one in the sense of a human birth etc.

Unless Jesus impregnated your mom, it's not literal.

 

[dybmh]

Maybe you can see where the nation of Israel does not fit the prophecy (as it does not in Isaiah 49 also.)

In context it does. Let's see: Starting at Chapter 52

​

13 Behold ISRAEL shall prosper; ISRAEL shall be exalted and lifted up, and ISRAEL shall be very high.​

14 As many wondered about ISRAEL, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"​

15 So shall ISRAEL cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of ISRAEL, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.​

1 "Who would have believed our report, and to whom was ISRAEL revealed?" [ says the Kings ]​

2 "And ISRAEL came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, ISRAEL had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw ISRAEL that ISRAEL had no appearance. Now shall we desire ISRAEL?" [ says the Kings ]​

3 "Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held ISRAEL of no account." [ says the Kings ]​

4 "Indeed, ISRAEL bore our illnesses, and our pains-ISRAEL carried them, yet we accounted ISRAEL as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed." [ says the Kings ]​

5 "But ISRAEL was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon ISRAEL, and with ISRAEL's wound we were healed." [ says the Kings ]​

6 "We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted ISRAEL's prayers for the iniquity of all of us." [ says the Kings ]​

7 "ISRAEL was oppressed, and ISRAEL was afflicted, yet ISRAEL would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter ISRAEL would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and ISRAEL would not open his mouth." [ says the Kings ]​

8 "From imprisonment and from judgment ISRAEL is taken, and ISRAEL's generation who shall tell? For ISRAEL was cut off from the HOLY LAND; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell ISRAEL." [ says the Kings ]​

9 "And ISRAEL gave ISRAEL's grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because ISRAEL committed no violence, and there was no deceit in ISRAEL's mouth." [ says the Kings ]​

10 "And the Lord wished to crush ISRAEL, THE LORD made ISRAEL ill; if ISRAEL's soul makes itself restitution, ISRAEL shall see children, THE LORD shall prolong ISRAEL's days, and God's purpose shall prosper in ISRAEL's hand." [ says the Kings ]​

11 "From the toil of ISRAEL's soul ISRAEL would see, ISRAEL would be satisfied; with ISRAEL's knowledge ISRAEL would vindicate the just for many, and THE MANY's iniquities he would bear." [ says the Kings ]​

12 "Therefore, I [ The Kings ] will allot ISRAEL a portion in public, and with the strong ISRAEL shall share plunder, because ISRAEL poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors ISRAEL was counted; and ISRAEL bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors." [ says the Kings ]​

So, "kings shall shut their mouths because of ISRAEL". That's the context. Then the entire Chap 53 is saying why they will shut their mouths. It's the Kings thinking to themselves, or saying to themselves "Look at Israel, look at how the suffered. They bore our sins and their own faithfully and in silence. When God raised them up it was a complete surprise. Now I'm going to reward them." You can see how in context Isaiah is consoling the Jewish people.

Now, let's look at 49.

Oh! So, here, this is before Chap 53. Here, Israel is split. And the Lord is talking to a representative of the preferred half, which is called my servant, Israel. Then Jacob is gathered to it, and reincorporated into Israel. Then in 53, this entire group is called the suffering servant.

Psalm 89:24-37 speaks about the Messiah who call God his Father and his Rock and is appointed to be God's firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Then is goes on to speak about his sons and how God would forgive them and that God would not violate the Covenant with David, that His line would go on forever.
Then in verse 38-45 it is speaks of "you" (meaning the Jews) having rejected "your" anointed one and so on and put an end to his splendor and cast his crown to the ground and killed him in his youth and shamed him.
Then (verse 46-51) there is what seems like a lament about how long God is going to be angry and hide his face, probably because of what the Jews have done to their anointed one, God's firstborn, the one He has apointed to be higher than the kings of the earth.

I asked if you would quote the verses and comment on them. It looks like "The Jews" are, according to you, killing in verses 38-45. It's not there. The crown is cast to the ground, the throne is over turned. That's not death, that's political. The monarchy is overturned. You want it to be death. But it's not.

And sitting on the throne of David forever is not an important detail to you I suppose.

There's no throne in the Psalm.

But how do the details not match Jesus?

Jesus never met or spoke to Malchi-Tzedek.
Jesus never crushed any kings.
Jesus never executed justice on the nations.
Jesus never shattered heads.
Jesus never did battle.

All of that is imagined, wishful thinking.

If the sitting on the throne of David forever is seen there at all then the prophecy goes beyond Hezekiah, whose name does not even mean "Mighty God".
And if it goes beyond Hezekiah then the prophetic perfect tense can be seen in the prophecy.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't think this is Hezekiah. It's Abraham.

​

A Psalm of David.​

​

Declare, YHVH to adonee [ Abhraham ], "Sit at my [ David's ] right hand, until I [ David ] make your [ YHVH's ] enemies your footstool."​

Your mighty scepter [ Abraham ], send it from Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies!​

Your [ Abraham's ] people offer themselves willingly on the day of your battle, in the majesty of holiness, from the womb of the morning, when the dew of your [ Abraham's ] youth was upon you [ Abraham ].​

YHVH has sworn, and will not change his mind, You [ Abraham ] are a priest for ever, by the decree of Melchizedek.​

Adonai [ God ] is at your [ Abrham's ] right hand, he [ God ] shall crush kings in the day of his [ God's ] wrath.​

He [ God ] shall judge among the nations, he [ God ] shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he [ God ] shall shatter heads over many countries.​

He [ God ] shall drink of the brook in the way; therefore he [ God ] shall lift up the head.​

​

King David is calling on YHVH to retrieve Abraham in spirit and send him to help in a time of war. Abraham's spirit is a vehicle for YHVH's wrath. Abraham is the ONLY person who was made a priest by Malchi-Tzedek. He actually made war against Kings, not some imagined spiritual battle. If we ignore the details about Malchi-Tzedek, and start lowering the standards, this might as well be talking about Muhammad.

 

[101G]

King David disagrees. Psalms 19:7 and 119:92-93

The Torah of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.If your Torah had not been my delight, I should have perished in my affliction.I will never forget your precepts; for with them you have given me life.

under the OLD COVENANT, now one GREATER than Moses who mediates the NEW COVENANT. as a matter of Fact David saw the NEW Covenant mediator, Acts 2:25 "For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:" (see Psalms 16:8), Acts 2:26 "Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:" Acts 2:27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Acts 2:28 "Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance."

LISTEN to David, Psalms 16:11 "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."

Psalms 49:15 "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah." WHO IS DAVID REDEEMER God right? Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" WHO made all things God the LORD, now this,

David Redeemer , John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM,. yes JESUS, GOD the "LORD". what did Isaiah 44:24 say, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

he was "ALONE", and "By himself" when he made all things..... that's JESUS, the Ordinal First, and he REDEEMED, ALLTHING/. the Ordinal Last, JESUS. BINGO, there he is ..... GOD ALMIGHTY, the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD.

Justice, mercy, and humility results in a Jewish person keeping the commandments.

which you never kept, or did, .... (smile).

So that my wife knows with whom she is involved.

no, because if she could READ your heart yes. ... (smile), but she cannot. because sin is in the Heart.

I prefer the shade. Psalms 91:1

He who dwells in the secret place of the most High, who abides under the shadow of the Almighty,

but did you all not wanted a king like everyone else instead of God as your King?...... (smile).

Epistles... all of them, do not over rule the word of God. If there is no other source for their contents, they are the doctrine of men. Matthew 15:7-9

Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

ERROR, God is the WORD of God, did you not READ? John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." God is their source just as Moses wrote under God so did the apostle.... but with the apostle, God was dwelling IN, IN, IN, speaking. for was it not God who Spoke in his Son? and everything Jesus spoke the apostle reported it in their Epistles?. scripture, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

now, who sits on the THRONE? Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

"Thy throne, O God?" TELL US HOW MANY "GOD" IS THERE..... ONE. is this Son who sits on the Throne is the same God who made all things as Isaiah 44:24 and John 1:3 clearly states? let's see. remember Isaiah by God said, "I am the LORD that maketh all things" now let's hear God by his Son, Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:" the foundation was LAID by WHO? this Son who is God that sits on the throne. well let's check this in tankah. Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."

unless this is the same one person, then you have two Gods. now did not God tell you in the tankah, that he will raise up a prophet that YOU shall hear? Deuteronomy 18:15 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" and why are you not HEARING this Prophet, listen, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

Meh. Christ has no authority over me.

see the reply I just wrote above. Deuteronomy 18:15 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" and why are you not HEARING this Prophet, listen, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

so that means you're in disobedience. you're a rebel, in rebellion against God. just like the devil... rebelled.

I'll stick with YHVH and the actual words of Joel.

that;s Jesus, God almighty.

Easy to say, difficult ( impossible? ) to prove.

did you not READ, the Change in priesthood, by GOD? Psalms 110:4 "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." Changed.

now Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" Jeremiah 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:"

house, both of them, and not tribes... (smile). Oh the Lost.... YIKES!

bye, bye..... (smile),

101G.

 

[PruePhillip]

I would be happy to discuss that if you can either explain how I was disengenuous or perhaps recind that comment.

Under the law of Moses there are various sacrifices ordained. Are there Jews (and I am part Jew too) still performing these?

 

[PruePhillip]

Because we lack the temple and the status of ritual purity required.

So if the Jews are right (I am part Jewish) and Christians are wrong, why haven't the Jews been able to worship in this temple?

 

[rosends]

So if the Jews are right (I am part Jewish) and Christians are wrong, why haven't the Jews been able to worship in this temple?

1. There is no such thing in Judaism as "part Jewish"
2. The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed so we have no ability to perform sacrifices. We still have the ability to worship, which we do in all sorts of places.

 

[YoursTrue]

If people fulfill the requirements of the Law then they have no sin and do not deserve death. But our righteousness is like filthy rags. So we accept the sacrifice God has provided or end up being judged by Jesus and hoping for His mercy.
The priesthood can change, especially with a new Covenant, and as Psalm 110 tells us, Jesus is a priest forever in the line of Melchizedek.
The requirements of God would not change imo. From the time of Abel and Cain, God has been pleased more when we offer the best we have, and in this case a sinless man is the best that Jesus could do when He offered Himself. And of course, Jesus showed His divine nature by not sinning and if He had sinned He would have died because of His sins and would not be able to pay for the lives of anyone else.

Reading 2 Chronicles 13 about Abijah and Jeroboam and these two kings. Very, very interesting, showing just how far God allowed those to go who claimed to be worshipping Him. Fabulous read, not long, but requires concentration in many respects.

 

[YoursTrue]

1. There is no such thing in Judaism as "part Jewish"

Really? Let me put it to you this way -- whether you accept it or not -- I have a cousin whose mother is not Jewish but the children were bar mitzvah'd because their father was Jewish, they went to a synagogue with a rabbi that accepted that the mother was not Jewish and so the child is "Jewish."

 

[PruePhillip]

1. There is no such thing in Judaism as "part Jewish"
2. The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed so we have no ability to perform sacrifices. We still have the ability to worship, which we do in all sorts of places.

Now, two points. You CAN be 'part Jewish' - in my case it was my great great grandfather who has his name chiseled on to synagogue wall.
The 'part' is biological part, not a religious part. Half the Cohens in the world are 'part Jewish' in that they have 'haplotype DNA' that takes them back to the line of Moses.

Second. Daniel said the temple and the city would be destroyed. Not profaned like with the Greeks or damaged like with the Babylonians. Totally destroyed. For nearly two thousand years. Punishment in the OT meant losing land, or freedom, or life. This 2,000 years suggests a serious punishment. If the Jew is correct that he is right and Christians are wrong, how do YOU explain the exile, destruction, pogroms and genocides of the Jewish people?

ps going to Israel soon, quite thrilled.

 

[YoursTrue]

Can you find anything anywhere in the OT where God changes an eternal covenant?

Not that God changed a covenant but I'm reading 2 Chronicles chapter 13 and it is very instructive in showing that the two parts (Israel and Judah) were warring with one another, hundreds of thousands killing one another.

 

[YoursTrue]

1. There is no such thing in Judaism as "part Jewish"
2. The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed so we have no ability to perform sacrifices. We still have the ability to worship, which we do in all sorts of places.

speaking of sacrifices, I know someone whose rabbi would throw a chicken in the ocean on Yom Kippur as a "sacrifice/" Reading now 2 Chronicles chapter 13 and how the northern part under Jeroboam made up their own rituals.

 

[dybmh]

under the OLD COVENANT, now one GREATER than Moses who mediates the NEW COVENANT. as a matter of Fact David saw the NEW Covenant mediator, Acts 2:25 "For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:" (see Psalms 16:8), Acts 2:26 "Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:" Acts 2:27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Acts 2:28 "Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance."

Irrelevant. None of this changes what was said in the Psalms I posted.

LISTEN to David, Psalms 16:11 "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."

Psalms 49:15 "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah." WHO IS DAVID REDEEMER God right? Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" WHO made all things God the LORD, now this,

More irrelevance.

David Redeemer , John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

That is talking about the Logos. So what? None of this has anything to do with what we were discussing.

ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM,. yes JESUS, GOD the "LORD". what did Isaiah 44:24 say, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

Correct, that's why Isaiah is not a Christian.

he was "ALONE", and "By himself" when he made all things..... that's JESUS, the Ordinal First, and he REDEEMED, ALLTHING/. the Ordinal Last, JESUS. BINGO, there he is ..... GOD ALMIGHTY, the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD.

Right, not the word, only God.

Now, let's look at what you said:

Romans don't change the Law, it shows, you don't live by it. and if you do you will die.

You have said nothing at all to prove this point. If you can't stay on topic, I will happily ignore your posts. I like you, but, you're starting to waste my time.

which you never kept, or did, .... (smile).

Not true.

no, because if she could READ your heart yes. ... (smile), but she cannot. because sin is in the Heart.

Again not true.

but did you all not wanted a king like everyone else instead of God as your King?...... (smile).

More irrelevance. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

ERROR, God is the WORD of God, did you not READ? John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

No, that's the Logos.

" God is their source just as Moses wrote under God so did the apostle....

Nope. Not true.

but with the apostle, God was dwelling IN, IN, IN, speaking. for was it not God who Spoke in his Son? and everything Jesus spoke the apostle reported it in their Epistles?. scripture, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

That doesn't say the epistles are Jesus' words.

now, who sits on the THRONE? Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

"Thy throne, O God?" TELL US HOW MANY "GOD" IS THERE..... ONE. is this Son who sits on the Throne is the same God who made all things as Isaiah 44:24 and John 1:3 clearly states? let's see. remember Isaiah by God said, "I am the LORD that maketh all things" now let's hear God by his Son, Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:" the foundation was LAID by WHO? this Son who is God that sits on the throne. well let's check this in tankah. Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."

unless this is the same one person, then you have two Gods. now did not God tell you in the tankah, that he will raise up a prophet that YOU shall hear? Deuteronomy 18:15 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" and why are you not HEARING this Prophet, listen, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

I really don't care what Hebrews says.

see the reply I just wrote above. Deuteronomy 18:15 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" and why are you not HEARING this Prophet,

I am. As fas as I can tell Jesus wants me to continue being a law abiding Jew.

listen, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

The author of Hebrews is not a prophet. Show me a prophecy of Paul that came true.

so that means you're in disobedience. you're a rebel, in rebellion against God. just like the devil... rebelled.

Prove it.

that;s Jesus, God almighty.

I'll stick with YHVH and the words of Joel.

did you not READ, the Change in priesthood, by GOD? Psalms 110:4 "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." Changed.

That happened before the Levites were inagurated. There wasn't a change in the law.

now Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" Jeremiah 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:"

This also isn't a change in the law, it's an addition.

house, both of them, and not tribes... (smile). Oh the Lost.... YIKES!

Both houses include everyone.

bye, bye..... (smile),

Best wishes.

 

[dybmh]

Under the law of Moses there are various sacrifices ordained. Are there Jews (and I am part Jew too) still performing these?

Was I being disengenuous or not? There is no point discussing this with you, if you think I'm not being honest.

 

[dybmh]

Not that God changed a covenant but I'm reading 2 Chronicles chapter 13 and it is very instructive in showing that the two parts (Israel and Judah) were warring with one another, hundreds of thousands killing one another.

Yes. It's very very sad.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes. It's very very sad.

It certainly reveals a lot. It is sad, yes, and the history is fascinating. I put my hope as Isaiah also expressed it at chapter 65,
"For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart."
So one day the bad things that came up into the hearts of mankind will not be called to mind. This is what some are looking forward to, and just as God put the history down so we can read it today, He promises a wonderful future.

 

[Brian2]

on point.

another good point,

Good.

Hmmmmm......

spot on.

101G

4 out of 5 is good.

 

[Brian2]

Reading 2 Chronicles 13 about Abijah and Jeroboam and these two kings. Very, very interesting, showing just how far God allowed those to go who claimed to be worshipping Him. Fabulous read, not long, but requires concentration in many respects.

Yes a good read. 400,000 against 800,000 and he still won because of God being on Abijah's side.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus was never a priest by Malchi-tzedek's decree. People see the word "order" but that is not a group. It's a command. That's the first of several misunderstandings.

I did not say that Jesus was a priest by Melchizadek's decree. I don't think the text says that.

Nope. The non-Jews were given an abridged version of the Noahide law. And then in the next chapter Paul performs a circumcision. That means in chapter 15 a different set of laws were given to the non-Jews, and in 16 the Mosaic law is confirmed.

The circumcision would be so that Timothy would be able to mix with the Jews that Paul was mixing with.

That means that the covenant in Jeremiah has not happened. You said that in this covenant people will know what God wants and doesn't want. But here you are saying that people still have incorrect beliefs. The Christian "New Covenant" isn't working.

Knowing God is not a matter of having the right beliefs.

No. First of all the Psalms doesn't speak of Malchi-Tzedek's "line", it speaks of a "decree". Second, the Levitical priesthood hadn't been established in the time of Malchi-Tzedek. Like I said, multiple concepts are being smooshed together.

And it does not matter.

OK! So, really you wouldn't know if what happened in the gospels is a legal effective guilt offering or not.

It does not matter. If God accepts it, it is effective.

I have high standards.

If your standards go beyond the text then they become low standards.

The servant IS Israel in context. When the verses are looked at in isolation as a hidden prophecy, it could be a person.

I don't see how Israel fulfilled to isolated parts of the prophecy.
I can see that one Israelite could fulfill those parts and so Israel has fulfilled the prophecy through this one person.

 

[Brian2]

In context it does. Let's see: Starting at Chapter 52

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13 Behold ISRAEL shall prosper; ISRAEL shall be exalted and lifted up, and ISRAEL shall be very high.​

14 As many wondered about ISRAEL, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"​

15 So shall ISRAEL cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of ISRAEL, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.​

1 "Who would have believed our report, and to whom was ISRAEL revealed?" [ says the Kings ]​

2 "And ISRAEL came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, ISRAEL had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw ISRAEL that ISRAEL had no appearance. Now shall we desire ISRAEL?" [ says the Kings ]​

3 "Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held ISRAEL of no account." [ says the Kings ]​

4 "Indeed, ISRAEL bore our illnesses, and our pains-ISRAEL carried them, yet we accounted ISRAEL as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed." [ says the Kings ]​

5 "But ISRAEL was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon ISRAEL, and with ISRAEL's wound we were healed." [ says the Kings ]​

6 "We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted ISRAEL's prayers for the iniquity of all of us." [ says the Kings ]​

7 "ISRAEL was oppressed, and ISRAEL was afflicted, yet ISRAEL would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter ISRAEL would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and ISRAEL would not open his mouth." [ says the Kings ]​

8 "From imprisonment and from judgment ISRAEL is taken, and ISRAEL's generation who shall tell? For ISRAEL was cut off from the HOLY LAND; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell ISRAEL." [ says the Kings ]​

9 "And ISRAEL gave ISRAEL's grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because ISRAEL committed no violence, and there was no deceit in ISRAEL's mouth." [ says the Kings ]​

10 "And the Lord wished to crush ISRAEL, THE LORD made ISRAEL ill; if ISRAEL's soul makes itself restitution, ISRAEL shall see children, THE LORD shall prolong ISRAEL's days, and God's purpose shall prosper in ISRAEL's hand." [ says the Kings ]​

11 "From the toil of ISRAEL's soul ISRAEL would see, ISRAEL would be satisfied; with ISRAEL's knowledge ISRAEL would vindicate the just for many, and THE MANY's iniquities he would bear." [ says the Kings ]​

12 "Therefore, I [ The Kings ] will allot ISRAEL a portion in public, and with the strong ISRAEL shall share plunder, because ISRAEL poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors ISRAEL was counted; and ISRAEL bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors." [ says the Kings ]​

So, "kings shall shut their mouths because of ISRAEL". That's the context. Then the entire Chap 53 is saying why they will shut their mouths. It's the Kings thinking to themselves, or saying to themselves "Look at Israel, look at how the suffered. They bore our sins and their own faithfully and in silence. When God raised them up it was a complete surprise. Now I'm going to reward them." You can see how in context Isaiah is consoling the Jewish people.

If you say so.

Now, let's look at 49.

Oh! So, here, this is before Chap 53. Here, Israel is split. And the Lord is talking to a representative of the preferred half, which is called my servant, Israel. Then Jacob is gathered to it, and reincorporated into Israel. Then in 53, this entire group is called the suffering servant.

That is certainly better than saying the servant in Isa 49 is Isaiah.
Israel is a light to the Gentiles and brings salvation to them through God's Word who became an Israelite.

I asked if you would quote the verses and comment on them. It looks like "The Jews" are, according to you, killing in verses 38-45. It's not there. The crown is cast to the ground, the throne is over turned. That's not death, that's political. The monarchy is overturned. You want it to be death. But it's not.

Psalm 89:44 You have put an end to his splendor
and cast his throne to the ground.
45 You have cut short the days of his youth;
you have covered him with a mantle of shame.

There's no throne in the Psalm.

David's throne is not mentioned in Psalm 89 specifically, but this dude is God's firstborn, higher or the highest king of the earth. He is a king and was killed as a young man by the Jews. His is at least sitting on the throne of David as the one appointed God's firstborn.

However you have made a mistake and when I said And sitting on the throne of David forever is not an important detail to you I suppose. If you go back you will see that I was referring to the child of Isa 9 who sits on the throne of David forever. (see the bottom of post 674)
Then the confusion runs into the answers you gave below. I was speaking of Isa 9 and you speaking of Psalm 89 (see post )783

Jesus never met or spoke to Malchi-Tzedek.
Jesus never crushed any kings.
Jesus never executed justice on the nations.
Jesus never shattered heads.
Jesus never did battle.

All of that is imagined, wishful thinking.



I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't think this is Hezekiah. It's Abraham.

​

A Psalm of David.​

​

Declare, YHVH to adonee [ Abhraham ], "Sit at my [ David's ] right hand, until I [ David ] make your [ YHVH's ] enemies your footstool."​

Your mighty scepter [ Abraham ], send it from Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies!​

Your [ Abraham's ] people offer themselves willingly on the day of your battle, in the majesty of holiness, from the womb of the morning, when the dew of your [ Abraham's ] youth was upon you [ Abraham ].​

YHVH has sworn, and will not change his mind, You [ Abraham ] are a priest for ever, by the decree of Melchizedek.​

Adonai [ God ] is at your [ Abrham's ] right hand, he [ God ] shall crush kings in the day of his [ God's ] wrath.​

He [ God ] shall judge among the nations, he [ God ] shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he [ God ] shall shatter heads over many countries.​

He [ God ] shall drink of the brook in the way; therefore he [ God ] shall lift up the head.​

​

King David is calling on YHVH to retrieve Abraham in spirit and send him to help in a time of war. Abraham's spirit is a vehicle for YHVH's wrath. Abraham is the ONLY person who was made a priest by Malchi-Tzedek. He actually made war against Kings, not some imagined spiritual battle. If we ignore the details about Malchi-Tzedek, and start lowering the standards, this might as well be talking about Muhammad.

Psalm 89 is not speaking of what Jesus did but what the Messiah will do.
The Messiah of Psalm 2 does some hard core ruling and judging with his sceptre of iron and this is reflected in Psalm 89 with the one sitting on the right hand of God doing the judging and crushing heads. (Your way to understand the Psalm makes it confusing as to who is sitting at the right hand of whom.)
Why do you think that Melchizedek made Abraham into a priest? That sounds like something made up to make Psalm 89 into something about Abraham.